Classifying Magic: Calling RPG Nerds

[zen5887]

I don't think there is any reason to stray from the D&D style that @versoth mentioned.

 

[2xDouble]

Indeed, after all this input, what'll probably happen is that there'll be "magic", then it'll be divided, than those divisions will be divided until they're satisfactory. I'll keep that whole "Static, Dynamic and Synergetic" idea on hand, though.

"Even magic is merely a cog in the Eternal Alchemy." - Asura philosophy.

 

[Cavouku]

Hm, reading your post, they do sort of overlap. That's physics for you. You could make branches that intersect, say combining Telekinetic with Thermal.

Something to consider...Thermal, more to the point, making fire is hard if not impossible. You would need the initial spark to make it. Pyrokinetics is explained as accelerating particles to the point where something bursts into flames. That's not possible. You need the spark.

Accelerating particles just turns something into charcoal directly, immolating them but not burning them.

I'll write down the Magic from the World of Darkness, Mage: The Awakening, maybe it will help.

Prime
Mind
Death
Fate
Spirit which are drawn at the edge of a pentagram where they combine and become

Death+Prime=Matter
Mind+Spirit=Space
Mind+Fate=Time
Death+Spirit=Life
Prime+Fate=Forces

This is the "creation" or "invocation" cycle, associated with magic that brings things into existence or that nurtures existing things.

Death Purview: Darkness, decay, ectoplasm, enervation, ghosts, soul stealing

Fate Purview: Blessings, curses, destiny, fortune, oaths, probability

Forces Purview: Electricity, gravity, kinetic energy, light, physics, radiation, sound, weather

Life Purview: Disease, evolution, healing, metamorphosis, vigor

Matter Purview: Alchemy, elemental air, elemental earth, elemental water, shaping, transmutation

Mind Purview: Communication, hallucinations, mental projection, mind control, telepathy

Prime Purview: Hallows, illusions, magical imbuement, Mana, resonance, tass

For more explanation: Prime is the light that burns without heat, the energy that defies description. It is the power that courses through all things in material existence and which serves as the skeleton on which all willworkers hang their magic.

Space Purview: Conjuration, scrying, sympathy, teleportation, wards

Spirit Purview: Exorcism, the Shadow Realm, soul retrieval, spirits, the Gauntlet (Veil)

Time Purview: Divination, prophecy, temporal acceleration/ deceleration

That was a lot to write. If you need more clarification on these, ask away.

Hm, reading your post, they do sort of overlap. That's physics for you. You could make branches that intersect, say combining Telekinetic with Thermal.

Something to consider...Thermal, more to the point, making fire is hard if not impossible. You would need the initial spark to make it. Pyrokinetics is explained as accelerating particles to the point where something bursts into flames. That's not possible. You need the spark.

Accelerating particles just turns something into charcoal directly, immolating them but not burning them.

I'll write down the Magic from the World of Darkness, Mage: The Awakening, maybe it will help.
-sniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiip-

I was going to suggest exactly this, but there is one thing I don't like about M:tA, and that's the pentagram.

But yes, there can be multiple ways to do something. With the Telekinetic sound creation you can and will make heat. But it takes more skill than just heating stuff.

In M:tA you can open a locked door in, like, twelve different ways, and extinguish a fire in about twice that many ways.

Door is locked?
Fate: No it wasn't
Space: This other door leads where we are going
Matter: I'll make a new door.
Death: *door crumbles to dust* What door?
Forces: *kaboom* What door?
Spirit: I'll awaken the spirit in the door and command it to open.
Time: The door will be gone in a billion years... Which I'll make pass in a second.
Mind: There's a guy on the other side who will open it for us.
Life: I'll break down the door with my hand.
Prime: Doors aren't impervious to divine fire.

Fire is burning you?
Matter: No Oxygen
Forces: No Heat
Time: Burns out in a second
Death: Dies out
Mind: The fire department will be here soon
Fate: The fire department is already here
Spirit: Command the fire to extinguish

And so on and so forth. Basic principles shouldn't overlap, but it doesn't matter in the high levels of mastery.

Since you guys are offering the same thing, I'm grouping you here.

I do like these as an alternative, just as I like the D&D idea of spell grouping as well, or even the basic Classical Elements idea. Thing is, all of these seem to work, and these sound like fun ways to do things, or group things.

Like a few other suggestions, I'll keep this on hand, but it's not so much what I'm looking for. Basically, I can see myself grouping those into bigger groups, and what I want to do is make the groups so that I cannot see myself dividing them up so much.

It could work something like, there's hot and cold, and if you can master both of those, you've mastered the "thermal" school, and then there's precise telekinesis, and force telekinesis, and once you've mastered those, you've got the telekinesis school, and you can combine those with thermal to make new spells, let's say in the "physical" category or something.

This I'll work out later, but thanks for the help. See, all of these suggestions do help broaden my experience with magic classification, so I appreciate all input as a different view. Especially as a different view, in fact.

 

[Cavouku]

snip

I probably should have gone into more detail. But as you said you went that route already.

Still if I can clarify a little here. All six poles can generate attacks. But each taps into a different aspect of magic.

Fire: Offensive
Water: Healing
Earth: Defensive
Wind: Speed
Light: Purification
Shadow: Stealth

I would generate spell types around the categories that they best represent. But it's just an idea.

Mm, all those sound like buffs to me, covered under "spirit". Or otherwise concepts. It does add for philosophical categorization, however. I'm just looking for the more direct.

I don't think there is any reason to stray from the D&D style that @versoth mentioned.

Just two different lines of thinking. D&D grouping is, as versoth mentioned, based on the result. The style I'm working with is more based on the action.

For instance, you could manipulate someone with the corporeal, the telekinetic, or the spiritual trees, but they're all very different some each other, despite achieving the same result.

That's not to say D&D style doesn't work, however. I play D&D, and it works. Just, not for what I'm after.

Indeed, after all this input, what'll probably happen is that there'll be "magic", then it'll be divided, than those divisions will be divided until they're satisfactory. I'll keep that whole "Static, Dynamic and Synergetic" idea on hand, though.

"Even magic is merely a cog in the Eternal Alchemy." - Asura philosophy.

I'll probably never have a good opportunity to play Asura, but indeed, magic may be a big part of existence itself in my working concept, but it's just a piece, as is the physical. Magic could be grouped into something else, but for now, I'm having it stand alone, if only for discussion's sake.

...I will say this, though. All magic is a skill, just as the physical things are. Magic may make things easy, but it's not as assured as the skill to use a broadsword, or the skill to tame an animal, the skill to captain a ship, seduce a maiden, and so forth. These things are basically divided into Physical Skills and Magical Skills, but they both count as skills.

 

[Emurlahn]

I'm currently playing around with a different classification system.
A system based not on the effect on the magic, but on the origins of the magic.
Here are some examples, using stuff most people will be able to relate too.

Arcane/Conjuration: Simple standard "mind over matter" magic, found in (almost) every fantasy book/game/"you-name-it". The wizard thinks/want something to happen, and with enough knowledge/mental force/mana it does. You simply conjure it out of thin air.

Nucleus/Alchemical: Again, "mind over matter", but this time you have to use whatever you've got around you. Think Fullmetal alchemy. You make a circle/gesture/sentence and the carbon and iron in the ground is made into a nice sword, or nitrogen and oxygen is combined, while carbon-dioxide is split apart to make heat, and boom; fire.

Spiritual: As the name implies, there is a need for spirits/demons/other otherworldly creatures, for this magic to exist. Simply; you make a deal with a spirit/thingy and thus get access to it's power. It might be to get an animals spirit to watch over you, or attack for you, or to get some of the animals strength. Or you can get a fire-spirit to throw around fireballs for you, if that is what desire.

As I said, playing around with it, and I've got a few more of them, but as I am using them for a project that might end up quite big, I would rather not reveal all of my ideas here, but you get the point.

And I know this is not exactly what you asked for, but think a little about it, might be easier too use, as this does not require every spell to be put into on category, just just how the spell is resolved.

Also, if you are going to use this for a game/book/profit/whatever, hands off please, my idea, and as I said; using it for something that might end up at quite a size, could also flop totally, but only time will tell that...

Edit: If you look closely after, this seams a little similar to the World of Darkness magic system mentioned by pixie and Magneto right above.

 

[Illesdan]

It seems that the D&D set up of schools of magic are better suited for what you want. Those are the broader magical spectrums that can be broken down into specific schools if needed, but don't have to be.

Myself, I have already done for my D&D campaigns what you are working on right now. Since I based my ongoing storyline on the mythos of the 'Castlevania' games, I needed to make prime orders of power/magic that followed both D&D and Castlevania. I came up with thirty, and my gaming group really liked how balanced it was. It keeps 'overpowered' characters in check by making them THINK before charging into a battle, and it also helps new/low level characters by giving them an edge if they weild a power that is an enemies' weakness.

I can give you an example of how it works:

Wood takes double-damage from Fire, but deals double damage to Water. If you fight Wood with Wood, neither side does damage to the other, and chances are, weilding the same power, you are only strengthening/healing your opponent, and, likewise, they have a chance to do the same to you.

I wish you luck in your project, its really rewarding when you can make everything work and see how others react to it.

 

[Crimson_Dragoon]

I know a couple people have mentioned Mage: the Awakening, but I'm going to go with the spheres of magic from its predecessor, Mage: the Ascension as that's what I know and like more.

Correspondence - control over space and connections
Entropy - control over chance and fate
Forces - essentially control over physics (electricity, gravity, sound, etc. - this is where telekenisis usually works)
Life - control over living objects
Matter - control over nonliving objects
Mind - pretty self-explanatory
Time - also self-explanatory
Prime - control over the forces of magic itself
Spirit - control over the spiritual world

Awakening has similar corresponding spheres so if you're just looking for ways to classify magic, it would work, too, but if you're looking for a good magic system, I would go with Ascension as it allows for more creativity in using and combining magic.

 

[Erana]

Why not combine Telekinetic and Corporeal? You could make your fictional world so that they're fairly separate schools in practice, but alike in the theories behind them.
Like drawing and painting; they get divided all the time based on medium and the resulting pieces of art, but at heart, they follow the same principals and concepts.
It sounds to me like these two schools of magic function in the same way, and are separate merely in the results.

That being said, please correct me if I'm wrong. I only have a few sentences to go on, and I'm prolly not getting it.

 

[Cavouku]

Why not combine Telekinetic and Corporeal? You could make your fictional world so that they're fairly separate schools in practice, but alike in the theories behind them.
Like drawing and painting; they get divided all the time based on medium and the resulting pieces of art, but at heart, they follow the same principals and concepts.
It sounds to me like these two schools of magic function in the same way, and are separate merely in the results.

That being said, please correct me if I'm wrong. I only have a few sentences to go on, and I'm prolly not getting it.

They are fairly similar in result, just with a different approach. There are some differences, however. With Corporeal, one could use things like shapeshifting, or making things grow, or age. Interestingly, if one invested enough time into telekinesis, they would essentially be able to "control time with their mind", but it's seriously stressed, and no time magicker would ever waste his time (har har) trying to age a plant.

In truth, you found the right things, but got it backwards; they're fairly similar in practice, but quite different in theory. Function in different ways, but usually with the same result. And this is manipulating things.

Corporeal's weakness is that it only works on the living. Biological things, cells. Telekinetic's weakness is in that it cannot alter things aside from their position. It can stretch, it can squish, it can rip things apart if you try hard enough, but it can't get into the mainframe. It's an outside force acting in.

But I appreciate the chance to look into it and understand it myself. I usually don't think about questions unless I'm asked, and therefor it's always hard for me to answer them.

To Everyone: I've decided to just go with Thermal, Luminescent, Corporeal, Telekinetic, Spiritual and Ritual. Because I'm too lazy to dwell on it any longer.

For summary:
Thermal - Controlling hot, cold, and everything above and between. A thermal practitioner does not so much create fire, ice and lightning as much as they unleash an energy with the properties. That being said, with this temperature control, they can also easily affect lightning, ice and fire.

Luminescent - Light and dark, the ability to play with the visual, and bend light and dark. At its peak, light and shadow become forces under your power. You could sink into the alleyway and reappear behind a tree, or use light as a shielding blanket. Or, just mess with people's heads. People who can see, anyway.

Corporeal - Manipulation of the living. Controlling the blood, lifting the roots of the trees, and becoming whatever beast you wish. The lives of others will always be within your control, but their mind will forever be a fleeting step away (see Spiritual)

Telekinetic - All of your force, shown off in a glory of pure energy. The power to move things with your mind, to be a torrent of push and pull. Eventually you can grab into space, pulling it to and fro, or even tap into the realm of time. Such power is exhausting, to say the least. But the power is yours, if you're willing to train for days at a time for the rest of your life.

Spiritual - Everything that is either not in this world, or stuck between it is at your behest. The thoughts of others can be known to you, to tell if they're lying. To bring the spirits of the dead back, to strengthen the flow of magic, so as to let it heal wounds. Or, to puppeteer, rewrite, and utterly impose your dominion over others. Too be good, evil, neither, both? Your choice.

Ritual - For everything that either cannot be done with magic, or for those that are hard to learn the skill. Barely classifiable as a school, this art does have unique advantages, however. While telekinetic spells, or luminescent masters can transport themselves a short distance, they are unable to get to the next continent for supper. A ritual, however, could do this, with the right apparatus. One can also call on things from the sky, or mimic the capabilities of other schools. The jack-of-all-trades school.

As arguable as it is, I'm going with it. Thanks to everyone who offered advice though. It won't go to waste.

 

[Jamboxdotcom]

interesting reads. however, i didn't see if you said you were doing this for game design or for a novel. if this is for a novel you're working on, i hope you'll share more with us as it progresses!

 

[Cavouku]

interesting reads. however, i didn't see if you said you were doing this for game design or for a novel. if this is for a novel you're working on, i hope you'll share more with us as it progresses!

Oh, I never answered this. See, I came back here because I have a much more solid working on my theories now, but ran into a new problem.

But to answer your question, months late, it's sort of for both. I've almost got the basics of the game down, and there's a three-book series working (along with a few others that use it in reference)... and by working, I mean whatever the writing-term is for pre-production. Basically, I've got almost everything planned out for it, or at least all the aspects I need to get into it, I just haven't yet, out of sheer placidity over it, and laziness to back it up.

So both, really, but before I work on the books, I'd really like to iron out the kinks in the game, since that's the world that the books take place in.

So, to the general populous, I have come to a better understanding of the whole system that contradicts some of what I made up earlier. I also would like input that fine tunes my research, because as much as I would like to understand thermodynamics and electromagnetism to their full extent, I simply do not have the capacity... well, maybe more enthusiasm. I don't have as much of that as I need. But enough with the stalling, here's the revamped version.

Alright, there are 8 major skill trees I won't get into, one of those is Magic. Each skill tree has four categories, and each of those categories has whatever number of skills I haven't determined yet, because goddamn that's hard. But Magic's different, I was dedicated to finishing this.

There's Magic. Magic divides into the four categories; Material, Ethereal, Physical and Energetic.

Material has two subsets; Sorcery and Runecraft. Material magic is magic that is basically magic that needs apparatus. Sorcery most often deals with massively powerful spells, or ones that walk the line of power, such as long-distance teleportation and reviving the dead. Runecrafting is pretty much what it sounds like, though it includes glyphs as well. Basically, symbols that inherently channel magic. For the most part, runes can't do something "on command". They tend to have a passive ability, though glyphs are more spontaneous.

Ethereal has four subsets, but I'm sorta' working on that right now. It's something I'll probably be able to work out later, and it's not my main problem right now anyways.

Physical has six subsets: Biotic, Chlorokinesis, Elementalism, Temporal, Spatial, and Telekinesis. Oh boy, here I go.

Biotic deals with the manipulation of the user's body. This is the one that would include things like shapeshifting, or affecting the body's systems to behave how you want them.

Chlorokinesis is sort of an offshoot, but deals almost specifically with plants. This is the naturalist's specialization of choice. Essentially it's total dominance over plantlife, not much else to it.

Elementalism is basically the matter-bender's school. All about air, earth and water (fire is in the Energetic category). It also includes metals, and crystals, but honestly, I don't know how deep this rabbit hole goes, and I would appreciate some help in classifying it.

Temporal and Spatial are pretty much what they sound like. They're both offshoots of Telekinesis, but very specific. Temporal is some essence of time control, usually within personal range, with big timeline-altering spells mostly covered in the deepest roots of Sorcery. Temporal mages can do things like, well, mess with the time of a controlled area. For this reason, it's usually done in synthesis with Spatial magic, which... You know, you guys aren't all four, I don't have to explain this too far. If you'd like me too, lemme know.

Telekinetic... yeah, you get it. Though I will say, telekinesis has difficulties that make Elementalism its own school. Telekinesis can't really "dig into" something. You can move a boulder, but to raise a chunk of dirt from the ground itself, you're not having it. It only has dominance over things dislodged. It's almost impossible for it to move water, unless you're moving all of it. You can't pull water from a lake, for instance, you have to lift the lake. Telekinesis can however, mess with gravity to reasonable limits... etc.

And then the problem child, Energetic. Energetic currently has seven subsets, but I really would like to add an eighth, because I am insane and love torturing myself.

Energetic's current subsets are: Illusions, Light, Dark, Cold, Radiation, Fire, Lightning. This is gonna take a minute...

So, basically, broken up between heat and light here. Illusions are pretty much what they sound like, bending light in ways that allow you to make people see things you want them, or don't want them to. A good choice for stealthy types who want to cloak, or who just like screwing with the minds of the seeing.

Light magic and Dark magic don't seem like much regularly, but they have some practical applications, usually for conflicts against each other (but suitable for most cases). Dark magic can essentially conjure a "nothingness". Something like a black hole, but without a gravity. Simply a vortex, a dimension. Dark mages will commonly use this like a transport, to move from shadow to shadow, however, it's pretty clear where they're coming out of, because the shadow will turn pitch black when in use.

Light magic is often able to dissipate dark magic, depending on who's stronger. It's a useful magic for exploring dark places, because it uses much much less energy than holding a fireball. Light magic actually has rather similar properties to Dark magic, in that it can be used for short-range transportation, and will often be used to blind adversaries if necessary.

Oi... this part is the tricky bit. Alright, so Cold is pretty straightforward, in theory, but there's an explanation to be had here. When casting cold magic, one can freeze the water in the air, or condensate it for ice, but it's much more common, and practical, for an ice mage to just freeze... well, their own mana. They basically secrete it, in an already frozen form, and can then manipulate it. Though a Cold mage can only excrete mana in frozen form, unless they study in the Ethereal school, which as I said, is sort of under construction right now.

Then radiation, well, also fairly straightforward. Casting out heat to the point where it ionizes, causing some serious damage, from radiation poisoning, to intense burns, to straight up disintegration when strong enough.

Fire and Lightning are interesting. Now, I was looking up stuff about electromagnetism, basically a charge has to be made, and the electric field from Point A to Point B has to be intense enough to ionize the air, turning the air into a channel for a spark to go through. Please fix me up if I'm wrong about this, I appreciate it. So basically, the Fire mage will cause a spark by building up a charge between two points (I don't think this is thermal anymore, but rather electromagnetic, but I'll keep it here in Energetic), usually the fingers and thumb or something, and then, like the cold mage, excrete mana to act as a fuel, that ignites upon contact with the spark. A lot of fire mages, therefor, prefer to use something like gloves with flint, just to make it easier. Anyways, controlling the flow of mana, you control where the fire goes, and how hot it is when it gets there.

Electric magic is basically expanding on the spark principle, by generating a charge, and then exuding ionizing levels of heat in the direction they want to cast the bolt until it reaches the object. It takes a lot of skill to do this, and in the earlier stages of study, time. Eventually the process comes naturally, and one can cast bolts of lightning. It wouldn't be uncommon for a lightning mage to carry a length of metal wire, for just such an emergency.

Anyways, I gotta run to work, help me out if you see some major flaws, and I'll be back later tonight to see if any progress is made. Don't worry about the Ethereal school for now, I'll probably work that out in my free time.

So yeah, mainly, I want an eighth subset for Energetic. I was kinda thinking "Sound", but I wasn't sure if that would fly. Gotta run, thanks anybody!