Cleaning up Steam, your suggestions?

[Shamanic Rhythm]

Steam needs to stop listing DLC in the same sections as whole games. It gets really annoying when I want to see if anything decent has been released in the past few weeks and I have to sift through piles and piles of $1 DLC. Hats and rockband songs should not be listed with full games!

errrm, in the new releases section you can filter out DLC, in fact, its filtered out by default

For PC it is, for the Mac section it isn't. (There's your problem, you say!).

 

[Padwolf]

I think Totalbuscuit's idea was the best one to clean up steam a bit, and that's just to make a better set of filters that enables brand spanking new games to be on the actual new releases section. Also, give DLC it's own section rather than putting it with the whole games. And Or, failing filters, just put the actual release date of the game on the front page along with it. Also maybe offer refunds if the game runs very poorly. Or just hope people look into what they are buying a lot more, and Valve need to look into it a lot more.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

Except that legally valve is not allowed to sell you a game that does not work.

one bad thing theyve done does not discredit all the other good stuff theyve done

Ah yes the typical valve fanboy response.

errm yes i did was a was a huge fan of valve and steam, is right there int he OP, i still think my argument stand, while i dont think is right for them to allow a broken game to be sold, i dont think this discredits everything else theyve done to support fans, customers and developers

Steam needs to stop listing DLC in the same sections as whole games. It gets really annoying when I want to see if anything decent has been released in the past few weeks and I have to sift through piles and piles of $1 DLC. Hats and rockband songs should not be listed with full games!

errrm, in the new releases section you can filter out DLC, in fact, its filtered out by default

For PC it is, for the Mac section it isn't. (There's your problem, you say!).

oh i didnt know that, yup definitively needs fixin'

 

[xaszatm]

A really easy solution is to have more than one list, each list being a specific type of game. They keep the sliding highlights of games at the top. Then, underneath that, have three lists displaying AAA games, indie titles, and "classic" games. Each list has their own filters from new releases ("released on Steam" for the classic section), best sellers, etc. This way, it can still be impartial and have more games on the front page to help entice impulse buyers.

 

[Caiphus]

New is relative and contextual. New as in just released, new as in New on Steam, New as in New on Linux/Mac/Etc. There's lot's of ways the word New can be used.

Correct. And currently, on Steam, it is being used in the broadest context possible with no option to narrow that context down. Which is unhelpful, and poor customer service.

'Shitty' much like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Now granted there are shitty games but at the same time someone out there may actually like the game. I may consider Game of Thrones to hot drek on a bab but I hear there are people that like it.

Sure, I agree with this. There are objective ways that one can use to decide if a game is not fit for purpose, though. If it is: missing sound files, .exe files, textures, is using placeholder names, has been falsely advertised, gives motion sickness while playing, has no multiplayer servers, cannot run on most modern PCs, is tough to play without a controller/mods, etc then those games have gone past "shitty in the eye of the beholder" and are just broken.

It's not Steam's job to police their stores in order to make sure all the games meet one person's definition. Steam is in an interesting position., 98% of the games they sell are not theirs. Now let's look at other stores. Blizzard's Store.. only Blizzard games. Origin... EA games.. Steam.. will sell everyone's games. When was the last time you bought something through origin or Blizzard's Store?

Well, at this point they're desperately trying to not make it their job. I think it should be. In most retail stores the items being sold were not manufactured by the retailer in question. Most still offer refunds, or exchange options if something isn't up to scratch. And those stores don't need to make sure items meet "one customer's definition" either. Steam, which is in a special position where it loses no money and has to do remarkably little work if they have to buy back a digital licence, strangely doesn't have to do that.

And I bought Mass effect and the sims 3 through origin. Both EA games, granted.

Now to do this Steam actually opens up to indies. Greenlight for example... now despite what some may think is actually a good system. Oh sure games you like may not get through and games you don't do but greenlight isn't quality control...it's a market test. meaning it tests to see if the game actually has an interested potential consumer base. If it go through Greenlight.. that means quite a few people voted for it.

Well, that's your opinion and we disagree. It's a mess, and Valve is discontinuing it. Which suggests that they are dissatisfied, at best, with their own system.

How does quality control happen. Quality Control is enforced by the market and steam gives their users many tools with which to do this. Users are invited and encouraged to review the games in their library.. these reviews are visible by other steam viewers. Before you buy it's not hard to see what sort of reviews a game has. Shitty games.. get shitty sales... because any consumer that does a little checking will find out it sucks and thusly not buy it.

That's only one way quality control can happen. Potentially biased reviews, forums, fine. Those are available. Why are they the only available quality control?

Valve has TREMENDOUS market power, shown by the desperation with which devs try to get onto their service. Their hands are not tied here. They're in an extremely powerful position to tell devs to cut practices out. Why are we leaving it up to consumers, who have very, very little power to police things? That makes no sense. We're the customers here, and we have rights because of our negligible power as individuals and because of information asymmetry. I'm really unsure why most of this thread appears to be trying to waive them.

Check the User Reviews, CHeck the FOrums (very helpful there actually since you can also see what problems plague other owners), Google Problems and see what comes up; then make your decision to purchase. See how that works.. YOU the consumer have the money, YOU have the Power, so YOU have the responsibility to make sure what YOU spend YOUR money on is worth YOUR money. That's how things work in the world and that's one of the first lessons that should have been drilled into your head the day you were given any form of purchasing power.

But it's not. That's how things work in Steam's world, yes, but it's not generally how things work. Caveat Emptor hasn't existed for quite a while. My purchasing decisions are my responsibility, yes. But Steam's store, and the products on it, are its responsibility.

And as a buyer, I actually have very little power in this market, again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porter_five_forces_analysis#Bargaining_power_of_customers_.28buyers.29

That's why I have rights, thanks.

 

[Little Gray]

Except that legally valve is not allowed to sell you a game that does not work.

one bad thing theyve done does not discredit all the other good stuff theyve done

Ah yes the typical valve fanboy response.

errm yes i did was a was a huge fan of valve and steam, is right there int he OP, i still think my argument stand, while i dont think is right for them to allow a broken game to be sold, i dont think this discredits everything else theyve done to support fans, customers and developers

Except that you are dismissing their absolutely horrible consumer practices because they have "done some good things." I am not and never said it discredits everything else they have done. I just dont think people should continue to ignore and forgive their illegal practices because of what they think valve has done. Its like saying Bob may be a rapist but its okay because hes a really great guy and gives a lot to charity.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

Except that legally valve is not allowed to sell you a game that does not work.

one bad thing theyve done does not discredit all the other good stuff theyve done

Ah yes the typical valve fanboy response.

errm yes i did was a was a huge fan of valve and steam, is right there int he OP, i still think my argument stand, while i dont think is right for them to allow a broken game to be sold, i dont think this discredits everything else theyve done to support fans, customers and developers

Except that you are dismissing their absolutely horrible consumer practices because they have "done some good things." I am not and never said it discredits everything else they have done. I just dont think people should continue to ignore and forgive their illegal practices because of what they think valve has done. Its like saying Bob may be a rapist but its okay because hes a really great guy and gives a lot to charity.

yes, selling bad games is EXACTLY like raping somebody

did you by any chance miss the part in which i said "while i dont think is right for them to allow a broken game to be sold..." the thing is calling valve anti-customer because of some very few mistakes theyve made is completely unfair

 

[Caiphus]

Snip

Well you missed my point admirably on most of that.

You can continue to believe that libertarianism is the best way to go about things on a store. And maybe Steam will believe that too. Fine, Steam just isn't the store for me anymore if that's going to be how it operates. I just don't have the time/energy to do the expected level of research on every potential purchase to make sure I'm not getting ripped off. Because if I do get ripped off, then Steam effectively goes "Haha, you stupid bastard". And I lose.

I don't want to act as though my purchasing behaviour is a battle of wits between Steam/devs and my diligence with google. But that's the way it's going. So I won't play along. Like I said in my first post in this thread, I've stopped looking for new games on Steam because I just don't have the patience. If I buy an indie game, now, it's only because of near-unanimous positive word of mouth.

As for this:

Giving motion sickness is not something a game can help... some people get motion sickness and others don't. Some people can handle boats and roller coasters but get sick in moving cars. No multiplayer servers... well again... that's something one can discover with a little research. Can't RUn on Modern PC's .. uhm.. that's actually allowable...plenty of games work fine on XP and 7 but can't work on 8. You can't expect devs to make a game that will run on OS's that haven't been built yet. For games that are really old... there's apps like dosbox and virtual machines.. Is tough to play without a controller mod... you might as well say tough to play if you're left-handed or tough to play if you're color blind. If a game doesn't work on *your* system and your system meets the advertised specs well then, report it and grab a refund.

That's some of the most anti-consumer stuff I've ever seen posted. I'm sorry, but I'm glad you aren't actually in charge of making consumer laws, because we'd be totally fucked.

But whatever. We're clearly at a tremendous impasse. You aren't going to persuade me, and I clearly won't persuade you.

 

[Rayne360]

Whether you like the titles on Steam or not they have a right to be there. They pay money to put their game up. At the end of the day Valve is a business (who gets roughly 30% of sales on Steam) and it's about making money. The only times games should be removed from Steam is when they are literally unplayable, meaning they don't launch or end support (there is a clause that the developer must support their games to an extent or be removed).

But shitty games can be bad for business. Especially if they clutter up the front page, and *especially* if people unwittingly buy them, through inadequate research or through false advertising, and then have to jump through hoops to attempt to get a refund.

I used to use the new releases page on Steam to look for interesting new games. I no longer do that; there's just too much garbage.

And TB addresses this in the video in the OP. The new releases page hardly means new releases anymore.

It's not Valve's job to hold your hand during a purchase. Buyer beware. Everyone should do research on a game not just blindly hit purchase because it might be interesting. Personal responsibility is going out the window these days. Just because you don't like a game doesn't mean you deserve a refund.

They don't need to hold your hand but they should at least offer refunds. Hell even Origins has refunds.

They DO allow refunds for a legitimate reason. "I don't like the game" is not a legitimate reason. Try to return a game to GameStop or Best Buy because you didn't like it. They wont refund you.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

look fellas, youd be hard pressed to find someone who loves steam more than i, im certain if it wasnt because of it, me and a couple of friends wouldnt be into gaming, atleast not legally, thanks to trading i have been able to earn some awfully needed money off steam in the past, the company behind Steam, Valve, has made some of my favorite games ever and i deeply admire em for their pro-customer and pro-dev morals and their desire to push the industry foward


in short, all Glory to the Astute, Benevolent and Extraordinary Newell

HOWEVER!

recently there was been a huge influx of shovelware on steam, and while i didnt entirely dismiss the problem i thought it wasnt that big of a deal, until now, after reading about dead games being sold on the store and watching this TotalBiscuit video in which he shows an old game so badly ported to new systems, it needs to be burned into a CD in order to run properly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLNh5HPbQPo

the video also shows a few nice features which would help to clean up the storefront

personally i also think Valve could add a recommended selection to the store page, personalized just for you, they could use the data theyve gathered with the steam user reviews and game tags to provide a more or less accurate selection, they could even allow this selection to be refreshed each day or even each time you visit the storefront, im not talking about the recommended section btw, i mean something like "Recently updated" or "Featured PC games"


what features do you think steam needs to properly push quality games to the front page?

People need to stop being so reverential to valve and Steam. It's good but it needs to face fiercer criticism than it has done in the past. It seems to have become something of a sacred cow in the gaming community and this needs to change. A good kicking once in a while is healthy for any company. Sony learned from the ps3 and hopefully microsoft will learn from the xbone.

I don't want to talk about boycotts or anything, but if more people complained and made a fuss i'm sure they might at least take notice.

i dont see that happening in the near future since valve is by far one of the most pro-customers and successful video game companies around, there really isnt much else they could do better


but well, as i said i am a huge valve/steam fan, believe me when i tell you i have my reasons

Steam need to hire more staff and try and get some quality control. They won't because people are afraid of critiquing them. Steam are not your friends, valve are not your friends, they are a business. I've said it before, the 'customer friendly' image is just that. If they were truly customer friendly they would refund when someone gets ripped off.

Steam was a good platform, it can be again. But it's letting vast amounts of crap onto it. Use the ideas in the video. Hire more staff to check games before they hit steam.

of course valve is a business ive never said otherwise, they dont go out of their way to screw over customers, and for me thats worth a lot, plus theres some stuff they do that shows they do care atleast a little bit for their customers

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/06/27/steam-workshop-now-lets-creators-give-back-to-their-supporters/

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/12/25/left-4-dead-2-is-free-on-steam-until-tomorrow/



the thing with quality control is, it might not be the best solution and Valve knows this, they are trying to move to a more self-publishing model, and having to check every single game that gets into steam might just make the whole thing clunkier, it wasnt that long ago back when indie devs complained about how hard it was to get into steam, i dont think Valve wants steam to go back to those days

as much as i love Valve and Steam, im not afriad to critize them, i just think your solution would the best for the direction Valve wants for Steam

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

look fellas, youd be hard pressed to find someone who loves steam more than i, im certain if it wasnt because of it, me and a couple of friends wouldnt be into gaming, atleast not legally, thanks to trading i have been able to earn some awfully needed money off steam in the past, the company behind Steam, Valve, has made some of my favorite games ever and i deeply admire em for their pro-customer and pro-dev morals and their desire to push the industry foward


in short, all Glory to the Astute, Benevolent and Extraordinary Newell

HOWEVER!

recently there was been a huge influx of shovelware on steam, and while i didnt entirely dismiss the problem i thought it wasnt that big of a deal, until now, after reading about dead games being sold on the store and watching this TotalBiscuit video in which he shows an old game so badly ported to new systems, it needs to be burned into a CD in order to run properly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLNh5HPbQPo

the video also shows a few nice features which would help to clean up the storefront

personally i also think Valve could add a recommended selection to the store page, personalized just for you, they could use the data theyve gathered with the steam user reviews and game tags to provide a more or less accurate selection, they could even allow this selection to be refreshed each day or even each time you visit the storefront, im not talking about the recommended section btw, i mean something like "Recently updated" or "Featured PC games"


what features do you think steam needs to properly push quality games to the front page?

People need to stop being so reverential to valve and Steam. It's good but it needs to face fiercer criticism than it has done in the past. It seems to have become something of a sacred cow in the gaming community and this needs to change. A good kicking once in a while is healthy for any company. Sony learned from the ps3 and hopefully microsoft will learn from the xbone.

I don't want to talk about boycotts or anything, but if more people complained and made a fuss i'm sure they might at least take notice.

i dont see that happening in the near future since valve is by far one of the most pro-customers and successful video game companies around, there really isnt much else they could do better


but well, as i said i am a huge valve/steam fan, believe me when i tell you i have my reasons

Steam need to hire more staff and try and get some quality control. They won't because people are afraid of critiquing them. Steam are not your friends, valve are not your friends, they are a business. I've said it before, the 'customer friendly' image is just that. If they were truly customer friendly they would refund when someone gets ripped off.

Steam was a good platform, it can be again. But it's letting vast amounts of crap onto it. Use the ideas in the video. Hire more staff to check games before they hit steam.

of course valve is a business ive never said otherwise, they dont go out of their way to screw over customers, and for me thats worth a lot, plus theres some stuff they do that shows they do care atleast a little bit for their customers

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/06/27/steam-workshop-now-lets-creators-give-back-to-their-supporters/

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/12/25/left-4-dead-2-is-free-on-steam-until-tomorrow/



the thing with quality control is, it might not be the best solution and Valve knows this, they are trying to move to a more self-publishing model, and having to check every single game that gets into steam might just make the whole thing clunkier, it wasnt that long ago back when indie devs complained about how hard it was to get into steam, i dont think Valve wants steam to go back to those days

as much as i love Valve and Steam, im not afriad to critize them, i just think your solution would the best for the direction Valve wants for Steam

The thing is, if you run a site that hosts peoples content then you are to a certain degree responsible for the content that appears on that site. Stores like amazon try this and while occasionally stuff slips they are far better at dealing with customer complaints than Steam. Consumers have rights, I don't think someone buying a game they dislike should warrant a refund BUT a clearly faulty game should. If Steam don't want to refund customers then they should employ a level of quality control. Simply deduct the money from the publisher when a customer asks for refund, much in the way a marketplace seller on Amazon loses its money.

If anyone can stick whatever they want onto Steam what's to stop far right organisations sticking racist/homophobic games onto Steam.

Steam are a big platform now. They can hire more people. Have them test the game before it hits. It would not be that difficult.

like i said im not sure thats the best solution


but improving the customer service when it comes to refunds might be a great way to deter broken games from appearing on the store, since devs wouldnt get money off of them

 

[loa]

They should at least check if the game actually runs, keep shovelware away from the frontpage and maybe tone that whole early access nonsense down a bit.
Releasing a game with no executable should not be possible!
Technical stuff like this should be a pretty agreeable basis for quality control.

Anything beyond that, I'm not so sure.
Apples esoteric "quality control" has fucked many a game developer over, we don't really want that.

 

[Jumplion]

I don't understand some of the arguments of "Buyer Beware" and "VALVe shouldn't do quality control, it's the customer's job to research!"

One of my favorite bad arguments is "VALVe's a business! What do you expect?"

Let's imagine that we are all VALVe, or any generic business, maybe a furniture franchise, at a board room meeting. We're talking about "how to improve the user experience when using our platform." If you suggested that the customer should just do their own research when looking through their products and not offer any method of discerning quality, people would look at you like you're speaking in tounges. The point of a business is to make money, and they make money through pleasing the customers.

Think about this issue from an actual businesses' perspective; when, in the history of selling goods and services to customers, has making your customers do most of the heavy work been a good thing and streamlining any interactions between business and customers a bad thing? Companies constantly try to streamline the process for their customers so they can exchange money faster, quicker, and more efficiently. There is no reason why VALVe cannot and should not implement streamlined UI, incorporate some system of basic quality control, or any other things to improve what is right now a pretty slapdash and unregulated mess.

You are the customer, act like it, why the hell would you defend VALVe's right to not make navigating and finding actual quality games in the store easier? It's okay to feel entitled in certain scenarios regarding consumer rights, no matter how small or negligible those rights are. Some of these may be minor things, sure, but it is VALVe's job to impress us and cater to our needs, not the other way around.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

look fellas, youd be hard pressed to find someone who loves steam more than i, im certain if it wasnt because of it, me and a couple of friends wouldnt be into gaming, atleast not legally, thanks to trading i have been able to earn some awfully needed money off steam in the past, the company behind Steam, Valve, has made some of my favorite games ever and i deeply admire em for their pro-customer and pro-dev morals and their desire to push the industry foward


in short, all Glory to the Astute, Benevolent and Extraordinary Newell

HOWEVER!

recently there was been a huge influx of shovelware on steam, and while i didnt entirely dismiss the problem i thought it wasnt that big of a deal, until now, after reading about dead games being sold on the store and watching this TotalBiscuit video in which he shows an old game so badly ported to new systems, it needs to be burned into a CD in order to run properly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLNh5HPbQPo

the video also shows a few nice features which would help to clean up the storefront

personally i also think Valve could add a recommended selection to the store page, personalized just for you, they could use the data theyve gathered with the steam user reviews and game tags to provide a more or less accurate selection, they could even allow this selection to be refreshed each day or even each time you visit the storefront, im not talking about the recommended section btw, i mean something like "Recently updated" or "Featured PC games"


what features do you think steam needs to properly push quality games to the front page?

People need to stop being so reverential to valve and Steam. It's good but it needs to face fiercer criticism than it has done in the past. It seems to have become something of a sacred cow in the gaming community and this needs to change. A good kicking once in a while is healthy for any company. Sony learned from the ps3 and hopefully microsoft will learn from the xbone.

I don't want to talk about boycotts or anything, but if more people complained and made a fuss i'm sure they might at least take notice.

i dont see that happening in the near future since valve is by far one of the most pro-customers and successful video game companies around, there really isnt much else they could do better


but well, as i said i am a huge valve/steam fan, believe me when i tell you i have my reasons

Steam need to hire more staff and try and get some quality control. They won't because people are afraid of critiquing them. Steam are not your friends, valve are not your friends, they are a business. I've said it before, the 'customer friendly' image is just that. If they were truly customer friendly they would refund when someone gets ripped off.

Steam was a good platform, it can be again. But it's letting vast amounts of crap onto it. Use the ideas in the video. Hire more staff to check games before they hit steam.

of course valve is a business ive never said otherwise, they dont go out of their way to screw over customers, and for me thats worth a lot, plus theres some stuff they do that shows they do care atleast a little bit for their customers

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/06/27/steam-workshop-now-lets-creators-give-back-to-their-supporters/

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/12/25/left-4-dead-2-is-free-on-steam-until-tomorrow/



the thing with quality control is, it might not be the best solution and Valve knows this, they are trying to move to a more self-publishing model, and having to check every single game that gets into steam might just make the whole thing clunkier, it wasnt that long ago back when indie devs complained about how hard it was to get into steam, i dont think Valve wants steam to go back to those days

as much as i love Valve and Steam, im not afriad to critize them, i just think your solution would the best for the direction Valve wants for Steam

The thing is, if you run a site that hosts peoples content then you are to a certain degree responsible for the content that appears on that site. Stores like amazon try this and while occasionally stuff slips they are far better at dealing with customer complaints than Steam. Consumers have rights, I don't think someone buying a game they dislike should warrant a refund BUT a clearly faulty game should. If Steam don't want to refund customers then they should employ a level of quality control. Simply deduct the money from the publisher when a customer asks for refund, much in the way a marketplace seller on Amazon loses its money.

If anyone can stick whatever they want onto Steam what's to stop far right organisations sticking racist/homophobic games onto Steam.

Steam are a big platform now. They can hire more people. Have them test the game before it hits. It would not be that difficult.

like i said im not sure thats the best solution


but improving the customer service when it comes to refunds might be a great way to deter broken games from appearing on the store, since devs wouldnt get money off of them

I agree on the refunds part.

BUT.

Steam NEEDS some form of content/quality control. Even if its just looking more closely at the thumbs up/downs at the bottom of the screen and listening to the people using the games.

It also needs to make sure no one is sneaking games like Rapelay or stuff like this...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_fLfBZaDMw

They are responsible for the content they host.

well recently people discovered valve is testing some sort of report feature precisely to avoid something like rapelay and other problematic products finding its way into the store

http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/03/13/steam-will-allow-you-to-report-a-product-for-malware-pornography-other-reasons/

its a better solution than quality control i just hope it doesnt get abused like game tags initially where, since the abuse could have far worse consequences than some vandalism and i hope you dont actually have to buy shitty games in order to report em

 

[OneCatch]

This is rather insignificant, but allow renaming or manual sorting of games in your library. Certain series like Tomb Raider, Hitman, have inconsistent naming conventions, which makes working out release order a bit irritating - especially when the number in the series isn't included in the title.
And it would be so easy to incorporate into the Steam client!

 

[Bombiz]

Whether you like the titles on Steam or not they have a right to be there. They pay money to put their game up. At the end of the day Valve is a business (who gets roughly 30% of sales on Steam) and it's about making money. The only times games should be removed from Steam is when they are literally unplayable, meaning they don't launch or end support (there is a clause that the developer must support their games to an extent or be removed).

But shitty games can be bad for business. Especially if they clutter up the front page, and *especially* if people unwittingly buy them, through inadequate research or through false advertising, and then have to jump through hoops to attempt to get a refund.

I used to use the new releases page on Steam to look for interesting new games. I no longer do that; there's just too much garbage.

And TB addresses this in the video in the OP. The new releases page hardly means new releases anymore.

It's not Valve's job to hold your hand during a purchase. Buyer beware. Everyone should do research on a game not just blindly hit purchase because it might be interesting. Personal responsibility is going out the window these days. Just because you don't like a game doesn't mean you deserve a refund.

They don't need to hold your hand but they should at least offer refunds. Hell even Origins has refunds.

They DO allow refunds for a legitimate reason. "I don't like the game" is not a legitimate reason. Try to return a game to GameStop or Best Buy because you didn't like it. They wont refund you.

actually to be fair i tried returning a game that was clearly broken (Jake and Daxter PS vita Collection) to GameSpot but they said the best they could do is offer some store credit.