Cold War 2.0 or WWIII?

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Sneed's SeednFeed

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Neither whilst China continues to produce lots of cheap consumer goods for foreign and domestic consumption. If anything, India's open beligerence towards Pakistan, its own ethnic cleansing at the hands of the BJP and Modi's general fascism are more likely to trigger some sort of global conflict than China persecuting muslims (like a good chunk of the world does).
 

Satinavian

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China doesn't have allies.
China can only really threaten its neighbors.
Pretty much everyone else does not want to get involved in a war with China or a chinese border dispute.

The only way this would involve into WW3 is if China was stupid enough to attack a NATO-member and trigger the mutual defense. China won't do such a suicidal thing.

There is cold-war-like behavior but not really because the US can't get its allies to form some anti-China-coalition. There also might come a war with China but it will probably stay a local thing.
 

Gordon_4

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In related news, the Australian extradition treaty with Hong Kong has been suspended and residents or students of Hong Kong in Australia have had their Visa’s extended by five years and a pathway to permanent residency - if not citizenship when the situation over there goes completely sideways - has been added.

Well, that will go down as one of Prime Minister Scott Morrison’s better and moral decisions.
 

Trunkage

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China doesn't have allies.
China can only really threaten its neighbors.
Pretty much everyone else does not want to get involved in a war with China or a chinese border dispute.

The only way this would involve into WW3 is if China was stupid enough to attack a NATO-member and trigger the mutual defense. China won't do such a suicidal thing.

There is cold-war-like behavior but not really because the US can't get its allies to form some anti-China-coalition. There also might come a war with China but it will probably stay a local thing.
When has the US been searching for allies? Because the last 3.5 years have been the total opposite.

Trump has been a gift to so many dictators like Erdogan, Putin, al-Assad, Netanyahu and Xiping. He's made so many things more acceptable
 

stroopwafel

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In related news, the Australian extradition treaty with Hong Kong has been suspended and residents or students of Hong Kong in Australia have had their Visa’s extended by five years and a pathway to permanent residency - if not citizenship when the situation over there goes completely sideways - has been added.

Well, that will go down as one of Prime Minister Scott Morrison’s better and moral decisions.
Nah, I think it's more giving Beijing the finger after Australia have been shafted out of a trade deal. Really the only thing they can do out of impotence. China and Australia aren't exactly in the same league. The U.K. is also going to feel the pressure of the regime now it has left the E.U. If they think they can make fair trade deals they live in cuckoo land. There is simply a major power imbalance. It is the price for 'independence' I guess.
 

Hawki

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and Modi's general fascism are more likely to trigger some sort of global conflict than China persecuting muslims (like a good chunk of the world does).
How? India's sphere of influence is mostly confined to its own geographic position. If war broke out between India and Pakistan, it would likely remain localized.

China doesn't have allies.
Um, Russia?

Also, China has diplomatic ties with a number of African nations.
 
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Revnak

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How? India's sphere of influence is mostly confined to its own geographic position. If war broke out between India and Pakistan, it would likely remain localized.
I... you do realize India and Pakistan both have nukes, right? And that Modi, if he was in that war, would absolutely use them? It would be the bloodiest war in human history within a month.
 

Hawki

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I... you do realize India and Pakistan both have nukes, right? And that Modi, if he was in that war, would absolutely use them? It would be the bloodiest war in human history within a month.
Yes, I do, and I'm aware of the problem of nuclear fallout.

That said, as terrible a war as that would be, from a purely selfish standpoint, it would be reasonably localized. Again, to the point I was responding to, what would be a global war? One between Pakistan and India, or one between China and the US? Because while both would be terrible, one strikes me as more terrible than the other.
 

Revnak

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Yes, I do, and I'm aware of the problem of nuclear fallout.

That said, as terrible a war as that would be, from a purely selfish standpoint, it would be reasonably localized. Again, to the point I was responding to, what would be a global war? One between Pakistan and India, or one between China and the US? Because while both would be terrible, one strikes me as more terrible than the other.
I don’t think any war where tens of millions die in a month will stay localized. Once the nukes fly, they will fly everywhere. That’s kinda just how we decided nukes were supposed to go sixty years ago.
Edit- Also, any one of those nukes hitting Israel means the Sampson system is turned on and who knows what happens.
 
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Hawki

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I don’t think any war where tens of millions die in a month will stay localized. Once the nukes fly, they will fly everywhere. That’s kinda just how we decided nukes were supposed to go sixty years ago.
Edit- Also, any one of those nukes hitting Israel means the Sampson system is turned on and who knows what happens.
The tensions between India and Pakistan aren't the Cold War. The Cold War involved two alliances of powers. What grand alliance is involved in regards to India and Pakistan? And why would either side fire at Israel?
 

stroopwafel

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The tensions between India and Pakistan aren't the Cold War. The Cold War involved two alliances of powers. What grand alliance is involved in regards to India and Pakistan? And why would either side fire at Israel?
Pakistani intelligence(ISI) could do that as means for escalation. They did the same thing with Taliban support and by further fermenting islamic extremism in Afghanistan during the U.S. campaign. Pakistaini madrassas even 'educated' them. Pakistan is a dwarf compared to India it only has it's nuclear deterrence so it will do anything within it's means to escalate the conflict and has also done so in the past. Also there are extremists within ISI and the civilian leadership is mostly a puppet. The more Pakistan feels it's under threat the more likely a regime overthrow becomes. An Israeli retalitory strike would align Pakistan with islamic sentiment throughout the entire Arab region to the point shia and sunni muslims will reconcile their differences to face this common threat. Any chaos of a nuclear exchange with India will certainly be capitalized upon let alone retribution from Israel which will most certainly be grave. Indian nationalists will also try to benefit from the situation. This 'local' conflict will be the ignition of a dry fuse that would send a shockwave through international relations that are already at high tension.

Idk, but I think it's definitely very likely a nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan will turn into a global conflict. It will destabilize an entire region with huge stakes at risk. I think people really underestimate how dangerous Pakistan's nuclear program is. But, ofcourse, given their hostility with India it's also necessary for their survival. At best it serves to maintain an uneasy peace but at worst it escalates into unimaginable disaster.
 
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Sneed's SeednFeed

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How? India's sphere of influence is mostly confined to its own geographic position. If war broke out between India and Pakistan, it would likely remain localized.
India has nuclear weapons and has the fascist BJP in power. It already had massive race riots this year and past year over civil rights. If Modi decided to square up to Khan, both have nuclear armaments with which the war would escalate to an international level. The nuclear option is here is just as much of a threat as is the Samson option in case someone would decide to invade Israel. The threat is very much real given constant ongoing border conflicts.

 

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India has nuclear weapons and has the fascist BJP in power. It already had massive race riots this year and past year over civil rights. If Modi decided to square up to Khan, both have nuclear armaments with which the war would escalate to an international level. The nuclear option is here is just as much of a threat as is the Samson option in case someone would decide to invade Israel. The threat is very much real given constant ongoing border conflicts.

Not to mention a nuclear exchange is never contained to the region. Hell, it's unclear even a conventional exchange with Air and Army would be contained to between the two given Chinese interests in the region. A lot of groundwork has been laid by the two nations and their allies (notably the US) to keep strong lines of communication between the counties to avoid such things, but we're in an era of resurgent nationalism and I'm not exactly trusting that cooler heads will prevail when the gauntlet is thrown.
 
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Agema

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Um, Russia?
I wouldn't called Russia and China allied, I think it's more that they have mutual opponents. How tight I'm not sure: with Russia locked out from the US/EU and increasingly frosty relations between China and the West, I'd expect some pragmatic closeness. On the other hand, Russia must have concerns over seeing its influence in central Asia erode under Chinese advancement, and even be wary of Chinese influence in Siberia and its own far east.

Nah, I think it's more giving Beijing the finger after Australia have been shafted out of a trade deal. Really the only thing they can do out of impotence. China and Australia aren't exactly in the same league. The U.K. is also going to feel the pressure of the regime now it has left the E.U. If they think they can make fair trade deals they live in cuckoo land. There is simply a major power imbalance. It is the price for 'independence' I guess.
China isn't that much of a big deal for the UK. China-UK trade is pretty modest - about a third of total volume of UK-US trade, for instance, and geographical distance will always limit it significantly. It's obvious that not just the USA but also the EU are gravitating against China, and that's a no-brainer for the UK should it come to taking sides.

That said, Australia has exactly done the right thing. Hong Kong has special rules compared to the rest of China on the basis of its autonomy. If China wants to fuck with that autonomy, it can and should lose HK that special status. China can whine about interference in its domestic affairs all it likes, but in terms of HK its domestic affairs have international significance due to all those treaties, and it can just suck it up.
 

Revnak

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The tensions between India and Pakistan aren't the Cold War. The Cold War involved two alliances of powers. What grand alliance is involved in regards to India and Pakistan? And why would either side fire at Israel?
I’ll skip Pakistan because that one’s too obvious, but outright Nazi style anti-Semitism is a big part of Hindu Nationalism. Either of them nuking Israel and triggering the Samson Option is extremely possible and would probably mean a hundred million non-combatants dying around the world given we have no clue what weapons Israel has or where they are targeted.
 
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Eacaraxe

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I wouldn't called Russia and China allied, I think it's more that they have mutual opponents. How tight I'm not sure: with Russia locked out from the US/EU and increasingly frosty relations between China and the West, I'd expect some pragmatic closeness. On the other hand, Russia must have concerns over seeing its influence in central Asia erode under Chinese advancement, and even be wary of Chinese influence in Siberia and its own far east.
Do bear in mind the closest the world came to nuclear war, miscommunication and software glitches notwithstanding, was during the '69 Sino-Sovet border conflict. The B-59 incident during the Cuban missile crisis was stopped by Arkhipov, and the Israelis mobilized their nukes to pressure the US into airlifting supplies during the Yom Kippur war. In '69 the Soviets had their MRBM's stationed near the border fueled and in launch-ready position, warheads armed, waiting for the green light from Moscow which technically wasn't even needed at the time.
 

Agema

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Do bear in mind the closest the world came to nuclear war, miscommunication and software glitches notwithstanding, was during the '69 Sino-Sovet border conflict. The B-59 incident during the Cuban missile crisis was stopped by Arkhipov, and the Israelis mobilized their nukes to pressure the US into airlifting supplies during the Yom Kippur war. In '69 the Soviets had their MRBM's stationed near the border fueled and in launch-ready position, warheads armed, waiting for the green light from Moscow which technically wasn't even needed at the time.
Sino-Soviet relations were indeed pretty frosty when the USSR felt Mao was diverging from acceptable Communism, and with competing influence in Mongolia. Bluntly, given their existing record of grabbing anything they have a tenuous historical claim to, I suspect China would have long since rolled over and annexed Mongolia if the USSR/Russia were not opposed. In the long run I suspect they eventually will anyway, if they haven't economically turned it into a vassal state already.
 

stroopwafel

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China isn't that much of a big deal for the UK. China-UK trade is pretty modest - about a third of total volume of UK-US trade, for instance, and geographical distance will always limit it significantly. It's obvious that not just the USA but also the EU are gravitating against China, and that's a no-brainer for the UK should it come to taking sides.

That said, Australia has exactly done the right thing. Hong Kong has special rules compared to the rest of China on the basis of its autonomy. If China wants to fuck with that autonomy, it can and should lose HK that special status. China can whine about interference in its domestic affairs all it likes, but in terms of HK its domestic affairs have international significance due to all those treaties, and it can just suck it up.
The trade is still a sizeable amount and will only increase if China's economy will also prioritize domestic growth instead of only exports. Also indirectly China supplies the bulk of industrial raw ingredients necessary for transshipment of half fabricates which is important for U.K.'s international trade. Probably a larger chunk of their export than marmite and cheddar. So they are very vulnerable on the supply side as well. Trade with the E.U. is also likely to decrease if they close the border for the simple fact paperwork and cumbersome customs processes will slow it down. Without an economic block it is simply impossibe to make unilateral trade deals with China that would make any kind of demands on the regime. Even the U.S. can't change China's policy much in terms of IP protection, access to Chinese markets and unfair competition due to state subsidies. Even tariffs on Chinese steel or whatever won't put a dent in the trade deficit due to the huge demand on Chinese production and supply.

HK's special status is beneficial for China as well because of it's independent legal process enabling the settlement of disputes through neutral insurance companies. As a guarantee for international businesses to invest in China this is pivotal and the regime knows this which is why they have treated the HK protests with comparative silk gloves. They even went so far as to concede with the extradition treaty but the initial demands didn't suffice anymore for the protestors. Ofcourse China won't allow a provocation from Australia over this or allow the protestors for China to lose face. It needs both internal support and the trust from investors so it's a difficult balance. I guess technically Shanghai could take over HK as China's international trading hub but it's something they'll try to avoid at all costs.