Coming closer to understanding suicide

[DraconianMod]

In light of recent events in the music scene including that one notorious suicide that quickly drew discussion.

I suppose people should try to look at things from multiple perspectives.

On the one hand I've come to the conclusion that people who saw what Chester Bennington did as "surprising" are foolish and have never properly listened to any of his songs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd9OhYroLN0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H4l9RpkwM

On the other hand I'm an avid Streetlight Manifesto fan and therefore a string of songs has stuck with me like the lyrics to "a better place a better time" I considered posting a cut from the song but I think people would do better to just listen to it in its entirety.
Then you can draw the conclusion that there are plenty of reasons not to and yes you could even consider it selfish but in the end you aren't the person to decide upon this for another all you can do is offer them a different way out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2yeNzL7rTU

In my mind I could imagine Chester singing to Tomas Kalnoky and vice versa.
The point being that there's two sides to the coin that are equally valid, but I feel arguing about it is pointless and that people trying to use that for publicity are sick.

But most importantly : There are always signs, don't fool yourself into thinking there aren't.


How do you guys view this?

 

[bluegate]

How do I view what exactly?

 

[Ramdin44]

I am even not sure what to understand there. But I will look out there to get some good ideas and knowledge.

 

[King Billi]

I don't really get what your asking here?

I've always been under the impression that suicide is primarily a spontaneous act and that if they can be delayed even a short while from carrying out their intention then most will reconsider. I believe I heard a quote that it takes too much effort to carry through then one "might as well just keep on living."

Like a lot of things in life if given enough time it will pass.

Likewise if ending your life was as easy as pressing a button then most of us would probably not be here.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Like literally everything human related, its different for each person. Viewing 'suicide' as a whole, as something to be stamped, approved and easily classified is to fundamentally misunderstand humanity. It'd be like asking 'define music. As a whole, define music for the entire world' or 'how can one better understand religion?'

These are basically impossible questions because every single person in the world has a different view and experience with them.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I've always been under the impression that suicide is primarily a spontaneous act and that if they can be delayed even a short while from carrying out their intention then most will reconsider. I believe I heard a quote that it takes too much effort to carry through then one "might as well just keep on living."

Yes and no. It is true that even a delay of 15 minutes prevents something like 90% of suicide attempts, simply because the actual decision to go through with a suicide is largely based on impulse and that impulse is short lived, if incredibly strong in the moment. Thus something as simple as getting a phone call, realizing you need to climb a fence (which is why a simple 6 foot wire fence makes suicides by train plummet) or not finding a good place to tie a knot can be the difference between a completed suicide attempt and an aborted one. Generally, suicide attempts are also not clean cut affairs of someone just saying "time to end it", but rather the result of a tumultuous inner conflict between living on and dying. The overwhelming majority of suicide attempts are performed while the person in question is having a very high anxiety level. So in the short term, a delay between impulse and suicidal action is the single biggest contributor to aborted suicide attempts.

In the bigger picture and long term, most people who attempt suicide suffer from some other form of mental illness. The most common is depression, with anxiety problems and borderline personality disorder as good seconds, but anyone with mental illness, including schizophrenia and other psychosis-related illnesses, has an elevated suicide risk. Thus, the important part in preventing future suicide attempts is proper psychiatric and psychological treatment of the person who attempted suicide. Only a tiny fraction of suicides is performed by people without mental illness and in those cases a majority are performed by people with crippling chronic illnesses or terminal illness.

 

[DraconianMod]

How do I view what exactly?

Suicide.

Is the person doing it selfish and should they consider their surroundings and always try other options? (Tomas/streetlight manifesto example)
Do you honestly feel like it 'just happens' to people or would you say people failed to see the signs? (Chester/linkin park example)
Do you think you have any influence over it for another, is it just a battle within yourself that people lose in the end? (Chester/Linkin Park viewed it that way)
Or does nobody really have an influence on it and is it dependent on the choices you make in the long haul (Tomas/Streetlight Manifesto views it that way)
etc.

I feel to help people understand and cope with what happens in these cases they have to explore these type of views and especially when it comes to musicians start separating the lyrics from the melody and truly read into what they say, Chester Bennington has basically been singing about his potential suicide or urge to kill himself for years and people react as if this totally come out of the blue to be honest (and I am not trying to be mean here) I sort of went "Well... that makes sense, i'm sorry for his family and that he finally decided upon this".
Obviously Tomas Kalnoky is still alive, but he tends to sing about suicide with a smile on his face and on an upbeat track which sort of hides the true punch of the message if you're not actively engaged in the song.

I feel both artists in that strike upon something that's crucial to discussions about suicide.

 

[NPC009]

How do I view what exactly?

Suicide.

Is the person doing it selfish and should they consider their surroundings and always try other options? (Tomas/streetlight manifesto example)

Uh, it's not that simple. Depression makes it hard to think that straight, because all your thoughts are taken over by hurt and when your mind turns into such a dark place suicide starts to look like the best way out of it, you're way past being able to think clear enough to make some sort of list of pros and cons. You don't go actively looking for things that would logically make you feel better, because you're not thinking entirely logical. That's why something like pills needing to be popped out of strip be the difference between life or death, because even spending several minutes gathering enough pills can seem like too much trouble.

And that's exactly why I wouldn't say people who attempt suicide are selfish, because it's usually not the result of a rational thought process. Not to mention that people suffering from depression often feel like they're not worthy of being helped, that the world would be better of without them. That is not selfnishness.

Do you honestly feel like it 'just happens' to people or would you say people failed to see the signs? (Chester/linkin park example)

Both. Sometimes there are clear signs, other times they're well-hidden. And sometimes people don't notice because they're not close enough to the person.

Do you think you have any influence over it for another, is it just a battle within yourself that people lose in the end? (Chester/Linkin Park viewed it that way)

I'd say that depends on the cause and the severity of it. Depression is a *****, but the right help at the right time can make a big difference, to the point where the depression might be cured. But depression is not the only cause of suicide attempts. Heck, some medications have 'suicidal thoughts' as a side effect.

I feel to help people understand and cope with what happens in these cases they have to explore these type of views and especially when it comes to musicians start separating the lyrics from the melody and truly read into what they say, Chester Bennington has basically been singing about his potential suicide or urge to kill himself for years and people react as if this totally come out of the blue to be honest (and I am not trying to be mean here) I sort of went "Well... that makes sense, i'm sorry for his family and that he finally decided upon this".
Obviously Tomas Kalnoky is still alive, but he tends to sing about suicide with a smile on his face and on an upbeat track which sort of hides the true punch of the message if you're not actively engaged in the song.

I feel both artists in that strike upon something that's crucial to discussions about suicide.

If you truly want a better understanding of depression and suicide, you need to look beyond music. These are complex issues. A handful of musicians and the stylised expressions of what may or may not be their feelings don't hold all the answers. Heck, there's a lot science can't answer (yet).

 

[DraconianMod]

How do I view what exactly?

Suicide.

Is the person doing it selfish and should they consider their surroundings and always try other options? (Tomas/streetlight manifesto example)

Uh, it's not that simple. Depression makes it hard to think that straight, because all your thoughts are taken over by hurt and when your mind turns into such a dark place suicide starts to look like the best way out of it, you're way past being able to think clear enough to make some sort of list of pros and cons. You don't go actively looking for things that would logically make you feel better, because you're not thinking entirely logical. That's why something like pills needing to be popped out of strip be the difference between life or death, because even spending several minutes gathering enough pills can seem like too much trouble.

And that's exactly why I wouldn't say people who attempt suicide are selfish, because it's usually not the result of a rational thought process. Not to mention that people suffering from depression often feel like they're not worthy of being helped, that the world would be better of without them. That is not selfnishness.

Do you honestly feel like it 'just happens' to people or would you say people failed to see the signs? (Chester/linkin park example)

Both. Sometimes there are clear signs, other times they're well-hidden. And sometimes people don't notice because they're not close enough to the person.

Do you think you have any influence over it for another, is it just a battle within yourself that people lose in the end? (Chester/Linkin Park viewed it that way)

I'd say that depends on the cause and the severity of it. Depression is a *****, but the right help at the right time can make a big difference, to the point where the depression might be cured. But depression is not the only cause of suicide attempts. Heck, some medications have 'suicidal thoughts' as a side effect.

I feel to help people understand and cope with what happens in these cases they have to explore these type of views and especially when it comes to musicians start separating the lyrics from the melody and truly read into what they say, Chester Bennington has basically been singing about his potential suicide or urge to kill himself for years and people react as if this totally come out of the blue to be honest (and I am not trying to be mean here) I sort of went "Well... that makes sense, i'm sorry for his family and that he finally decided upon this".
Obviously Tomas Kalnoky is still alive, but he tends to sing about suicide with a smile on his face and on an upbeat track which sort of hides the true punch of the message if you're not actively engaged in the song.

I feel both artists in that strike upon something that's crucial to discussions about suicide.

If you truly want a better understanding of depression and suicide, you need to look beyond music. These are complex issues. A handful of musicians and the stylised expressions of what may or may not be their feelings don't hold all the answers. Heck, there's a lot science can't answer (yet).

I wasn't going into the depth of depression, that was sort of a given for me, perhaps that's cognitive dissonance then where the ideas connected like that in my mind but perhaps not for others.

The lyrics to these songs, especially the Streetlight manifesto one deal with the thoughts someone who is close with the person attempting or comitting suicide is experiencing, that's as much a part of the narrative as the act itself.

 

[kitsunefather]

This is a sensitive subject for me, as both my brother (May 10, 1998) and mother (April 4, 2011) killed themselves. I say this not for sympathy, but to apologize in advance if my views on the subject seem insensitive. A little background, then, before I alienate people.

My brother's motivation (near as we can figure out; he left no note) was to escape from a marriage he regretted, and he had become convinced that leaving her would cause him to be removed from the family. He did not contact us before he did it, nor did he tell any co-workers he was planning it the day he did it. He simply went to work, came home, took two hundred pills (a mixture of sleeping pills and amitriptyline) and went to sleep with his head in her lap as they watched TV.

My mother was more complicated. Her and my father had been having some troubles, and neither of my parents were the most ethical of beings. As a result of my father's continued separation, my mother filed a false spousal abuse charge against him, making a statement detailing 15 years of abuse. Included in the statement were things she had done to him, but in reverse, and events that would have been impossible not to know about, given my closeness with them (such as him kicking a small and physically fragile dog down a flight of concrete stairs). My mother had used false police reports in the past as ways to get revenge or control on people in other places we'd lived when I was a child, so I confronted her on it. When he plead no contest (his lawyer's advice was plead or spend 15 years in jail guaranteed), she could no longer rescind her claim. She took a high amount of amitriptyline, wrote no less than five notes over an increasingly erratic period, before driving her and her dog to the nearest Motel 6, writing two more notes, and dying. Most notes are wild and mad scrawls with the only thread being regret and "what have I done" repeated. She made no attempt to call anyone, or contact anyone; knowing her as I do, she went to the motel so no one she knew would find her.

All of that is intended to make clear where my views come from.


Suicide is a destructive narcissistic act. The person who commits it, I feel, gives up any concern for anyone else in their lives and perceives only their own hurt, their own suffering, and acts solely on that. It is a refusal to continue, no matter who or what might be counting on you, who or what might care for you, who or what might be willing to help you. It is a view that no one in the world's hurt matters more than yours, that no one's hurt could match or surpass yours, while at the same time thinking that no one will miss you when you are gone.

If you really want to do it, if you are dedicated and determined to be the one who shuts you down, then make sure you are alone or that those who care are well prepared for the day. Hunter S. Thompson should be your model; his family knew that one day he would do it, where it would be done, the weapon he would use. As far as I am concerned, this is the best and only way to commit suicide with any dignity. He still abandoned his family, but his children had grown, no one was still counting on him financially, and he had prepared them all for the eventuality.

As to the newest wave of celebrity narcissists abandoning their families, however, I have no sympathy. Is it sad that Chester felt so overwhelmed by his past that he took his life? Of course. But he also abandoned six children, created a day for them that will always haunt them and hurt them. Possibly, a day that will drive one or more of them to commit a similar act. This all goes for Chris Cornell as well. These weren't the last acts of a strong person coping with hurt, these were the last acts of someone who was so consumed by that hurt they stopped caring one bit about the people around them.

As someone who has lost two to this act, I can say that not a year goes by that the day passes unnoticed. That I don't spend some part of that day wondering if I could have done better, could have done more. Birthdays, and important holidays too, pass with at least a moment's remembrance; but every memory comes with the quest to find where I could have done better, been better. These two abandoned children that will now share that date in common as a moment's passing sadness, and a reminder that in the greater scheme of the world, they weren't important enough to their fathers to save their lives.

 

[Callate]

"There are always signs?"

Well, no, there aren't.

Often, maybe. If everyone had a warning list of common signs of depression, maybe more people would be addressed before it got to that point, though that kind of scrutiny also tends to have unintended consequences of its own.

But I have to note that after any tragedy, there are [almost] always people who are quick to claim that there were signs that should have been heeded to prevent said tragedy.

"Oh, he was quiet and nice-- just like all those other serial killers!"

"Well, it had been years since there was a volcanic eruption; we were due for another one."

"I always suspected that company was flouting safety regulations- their products were just too inexpensive!"

"If we had only made the proper sacrifices to the gods, this plague would never have been visited upon us."

Hindsight is always 20/20, as the saying goes. Trying to find explanations, and often scapegoats, is how human beings convince themselves that they have control in the face of tragedies. Believing that there are actions we can take prevent tragedy and misfortune is how we head off feelings of existential uncertainty, whether that's actually true or not.

The nature of depression is that it often leads its sufferers to isolate themselves, and to be very unpleasant towards people who might seek to break their isolation. Even when there are signs, there may simply be a dearth of people to observe them.

I don't make any of these observations to encourage fatalism with regard to suicide; awareness can help, and high-profile tragedies sometimes do encourage people to find solutions to similar circumstances locally.

But any high-profile event also brings out the tendency to assume all similar circumstances are more similar to the recent and visible occurrence than they are, and causes "experts" to pop out of their holes like groundhogs.

 

[Programmed_For_Damage]

I've lost a few friends to suicide, hell I even strongly considered doing myself in, and from my experience there are always signs. They weren't as obvious as them coming out and saying "I'm thinking of killing myself" (in fact the people I know who have said things like that are usually not serious at all). The person's behaviour changed, often in subtle ways, and when it came time for them to commit the act they had withdrawn themselves completely and minimised ways someone could intervene or connect with them. They died the same way they felt, alone.

With Chris Cornell I honestly think it was a spontaneous decision of a mind muddled by prescription drugs. Chester Bennington's death on the other hand troubles me. The fact that his perceived pain could outweigh the love he had for his six kids and spouse... I guess it's something he'll take with him to his grave.

What pulled me back from the brink of suicide and has stopped me going down that road when even tougher times have hit me is I think about how my death would ripple through the lives of those who love me. My pain would have ended, but theirs would have just begun. If I had any love left in my heart I couldn't do that to someone. I have three lovely kids now and they'll forever keep me anchored to this world. And that give me hope.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Suicide is a selfish act, but it doesn't mean it doesn't carry weight behind it for the person who acts on the thought. As a survivor of an attempt, I can tell you firsthand that yes it felt like the only option left to me at the time, though being able to live beyond that moment allows for heavy hindsight into why all my reasons were wrong.
I can't say that for every person who does commit suicide that it isn't the correct answer, as I'm not living their lives, but I can say that it most definitely is not selfless. Its very much tied up within the self.
I don't agree with suicide for the most part as an option, unless you're really in a situation where you're terminal or going to die regardless. Like taking a bullet instead of waiting for an imminent nuclear bomb to go off (like they're really on the way and no one can stop it), or suicide instead of letting cancer eat you.
But other than very situational points, I'm against suicide as any form of option. Again, being a survivor of my own attempt and also surviving my brother's own successful suicide, I've got perspective on two fronts. One isn't capable of seeing beyond the moment when one is suicidal, by which I mean truly suicidal not threatening for attention. Once you're at the point where death feels like the only option, its nearly impossible to be talked down because the process of external information is broken as well as the ability to think beyond the self.
What I mean is you exist in a world at that point in time where nothing beyond how you feel matters, to the point where all you want to do is stop everything. Feeling happy isn't a thing that seems attainable, and you're in pain regardless of physical or emotional, the difference is negligible at that point.
What I'm saying is that denigrating someone who is suicidal is a terrible thing, because you don't know where they're at, can't see from their perspective/feel what they're feeling, and thus have no frame of reference (you're outta your element, Donny).
The only thing I can say really is that you can be mad at a person for choosing suicide, because yes it is selfish, but you can also have sympathy for them because you've no idea what they went through to get there. I'm lucky enough to have lived beyond suicide and see the things that were wrong and identify the path that took me there, but I chose to work towards that never being an option again. Some people never get there, some end up on that path eternally until it consumes them.
I even have those feelings creep in from time to time, and its terrifying. I take preventative measures against it, to mitigate the feelings... but they feel like they never truly go away and I can see how some people end up succumbing to it.

 

[SoliterDan]

Ultimately, it's up to the person in question to decide whether or not his life is worth something or not.
If they want to end it all - well so be it.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

It's not that highly rated, understanding suicide. Or the desire. People would rather not and i certainly can't blame them. Some lose the capability to understand even with past experience, it's a testament to how much it can envelope your entire thinking that being outside of the hole is like being a different person looking back on a lost, pathetic stranger that possessed your life. Sometimes situations out of your control can still knock you back down the hole though, undoing all that hard work thinking you were stronger but maybe instead it was just a pleasant distraction that kept those thoughts at bay. People have their reasons and many believe that they are more a burden to those around them alive than dead. People i've lost or caught in the act i do not place blame upon them, their troubles are - were - many and their minds not in places most could understand.
All this annoying habit with a hole metaphor needs some kind of musical deflection;

Spoiler