Comment on sexist/racist/homophobic stuff in games you really really like. READ OP BEFORE COMMENTING

[Erttheking]

I feel like there's a bit of a wedge driven between the people of the Escapist and I feel like some of us need to remember something. It's ok to say that something is sexist/racist/homophobic, AND still like it. Classify it as a piece of art even. H.P. Lovecraft. Brilliant suspenseful author with great attention to detail that crafted a world of horror that we are still exploring today. Also racist as hell. I feel like we need to defuse a little bit of tension so please tell us of a game you really really like, gush about why you like it for a bit, then talk about an issue it has. Please, let's keep this polite and civil, this is a thread about more or less talking about how things we like can have flaws and we still like them even if we don't like the flaws. I mean, just about all of us like something that has one thing that drives us crazy. I love Dark Souls. The Tomb of the Giants can go burn in Hell. Ok, let's get going.

(Ok, you can post now)

Persona 4. OH DEAR GOD I love this game. It is beautifully written. Playing through Persona 3 right now, and while it too is a pretty damn good game, Persona 4 just has a certain magical element to it. Every just feels like stiff acquaintances in 3, where as in 4 it really does feel like the main character forges genuine bonds with everyone he meets. The main group really does feel like the best of friends, they all have personal arcs revolving around their inner selves and how they need to face them and there's just a simple sincerity to all of it. Naoto in particular is one of my favorite characters, especially considering how level headed she is and has a rather playful giddiness to the concept of being a police officer, probably why I romance her. Oh wait no I didn't, I tried to because when I did I said that she should just be herself, IE, being rather tomboyish where as in order to romance her you had to comment on how you were glad that she's a girl, prompting her to drop her tomboyish look and act more girly around her, to the point where she says she can't accept herself as a woman unless you do...what?

Ok, Persona 4...I'm not going to say it hates women, it clearly doesn't, but I will say it's attitude towards them could stand to be more healthy. Romancing Naoto and the MC encouraging her to be more feminine is like those stories where girls go after bad boys in the hopes that they can turn them into good people. It's getting into a relationship with someone on the hope that they will become someone that they aren't. Before people jump on me for criticizing the game for making a woman feminine, that's not what I'm trying to say. Yukiko and Rise were both very feminine and they were extremely well written characters. My problem with Naoto is that I never really got the impression that she was acting feminine because SHE wanted to. I mean if her arc was about her being tomboyish because she was too scared to act feminine when she secretly wanted to, I would've been on board with it 110%. Really it just feels like she's acting more feminine to please the MC. Now, I've never been in a relationship but if I was I don't think I'd be comfortable with my girlfriend being someone she wasn't just to please me. I mean yeah, people in relationships do things for each other even if they don't always like it, but it kinda crosses a line when they try to become people they aren't. Isn't the point of love supposed to be that you love the other person for who they are and not for who you WANT them to be? Not to mention there was the bit where she said that she was scared when she was kidnapped and someone said "Well of course, she is a girl" and not "Well of course, anyone would've been scared". It's such a small part of the game that you barely notice it, but it really bugged me because it was a black mark on an otherwise flawless game.

Oh well, despite that I honestly think that Persona 4 contains some of the best written female characters I've ever seen in a game, simply with out well rounded and likable they are. The sad thing is that we're never really going to find a game we can never say anything bad about, even in our favorite game of all time we're going to find something we can ramble on for paragraphs about. Well, your turn.

 

[Barbas]

I like quite a few games with those things in them. Characters who believe things I disagree with are often more interesting to talk to, especially when they explain why they hold the convictions they do. I like finding out the story behind their beliefs and I like it when the explanation they give (or are given) isn't clichéd or convoluted. Flawed characters create conflict, which is always more interesting in a narrative.

 

[Erttheking]

Personally, I wasn't a huge fan of how women were used in Spec Ops: The Line. No spoilers, perse, but if you haven't played it yet, you probably shouldn't read it, as it spoils part of the tone of the game.

Anyways, the women in Spec Ops: The Line are used solely as part of the guilt trip, and there's not a single female character or combatant in the game. Thats not neccesarily fine, but at least understandable, in most games, but Spec Ops: The Line isn't most games. The game is supposed to be a deconstruction, but it stuck to this whole notion of "oh noe teh wimminz" quite unironically while demolishing any other positive myth surrounding war and the military, not to mention the metacommentary on the medium of gaming. Not only did it come off as a missed opportunity (which it most certainly was), but in retrospective it almost kind of felt insulting. Maybe they just didn't think of it, but if they did, that means this was probably the one "you can't do that" line that they didn't cross in regards to the game, and maybe they just couldn't conceive of a good way implement it if they did think of it, but I don't know that, so it just kind of feels weird against the backdrop against the rest of the game.

My problem with Naoto is that I never really got the impression that she was acting feminine because SHE wanted to. I mean if her arc was about her being tomboyish because she was too scared to act feminine when she secretly wanted to, I would've been on board with it 110%.

I don't know about you, but this is how I see Naoto's character arc, or at least to some extent. Not necessarily acting feminine, but not being afraid to act feminine. She doesn't drop everything and become more feminine if you actually romance her, she just is no longer afraid to be feminine. I mean, she pretending to be a boy so people would take her seriously, and even after that cat was out of the bag, she continued to bind her (apparently large) breasts, which are the very symbol of womanhood and femininity, and seemingly was embarrassed to even have them. Once you romance her however, she tries on the girls' uniform if you comment that you like her higher pitched voice, but then she basically concludes that its just not for her. The way I see it is that she's just no longer afraid to be feminine, although she still would rather exude masculine traits because she legitimately prefers (most of) them. I totally understand how you came to that conclusion, I just don't see it the same way is all. Then again, I'm a woman has fairly masculine gender expression[footnote]I wear lots of hoodies, like playing contact sports, am in the pursuit of a muscular body, hate dresses and most revealing clothing, wear suits to formal events, etc.[/footnote] so maybe just I'm projecting. Take this as you will.

Well I feel like if that's what they were going for, they could've gotten it across a little bit better. I don't know, I think I may be projecting myself a little bit but I was sorta RPing as Yu and when I decided to romance her, I was trying to romance the tomboy that I thought she was. Hence why I went with the "I like you just the way you are," line that apparently you can't romance her if you say. That just left a bad taste in my mouth. I still love the character, the majority of her arc (The non-romance conclusion to her Social Link is just freaking adorable) I just feel like they could've handled that better. Heck, I'm currently writing multiple female characters in the story I'm working on and I am making one of them experiment with being more feminine because due to her upbringing in a backwards tribe in a winter wasteland she grew up without even knowing the concept of femininity and despite the fact that she's in a relationship, I'm going with she's mainly doing it for herself. Then again I'm also writing a woman who is so masculine that she identifies as a crossdresser regarding how she dresses. Again, I may be projecting a bit and I can also see where you come from your argument. Good look getting that muscular body...wish I had the dedication to get one.

 

[TehCookie]

With that pushing diversity topic, sometimes I feel like people do want to push that in games. Or at least I got the same interpretation from MarsAtlas, which I find funny since I'd also have a lot of masculine traits for a woman. Speaking of Persona 4, Yosuke's homophobia was pretty funny. If he wasn't I'd totally make him MC's boyfriend because MC has so much swag he's a ladies man and a man's man.

As for sexist things I like in games, Bayonetta. As much as I enjoy her over the top character, fanservice is still fanservice. Or the innuendo trolling in Tales of Xilla if that counts as sexist.

 

[NerfedFalcon]

As much as I adore Blazblue's sense of style, both aesthetically and in the actual gameplay... Noel, Makoto, Litchi, Bullet, and Mu-12. Need more be said?

 

[kingthrall]

Army men series, the racial hated between the Green army and the Tan army

 

[Xan Krieger]

I love Rumble Roses XX which I guess could be considered sexist since all of it's women have great bodies and you put them in very revealing outfits. It's a fun game and I love the women in it (I'm foreveralone in real life *cries*).

 

[Bram Mcalmont]

Call of duty............
just Call Of Duty.....
I shouldn't have to elaborate.

Also, Killer is Dead, great game, but the date scenes in the game caught me as sleazy and creeperish.

 

[lachlan4567]

I kinda liked the racial conflicts and tension in the mass effect series, It makes the universe feel lived in.
I honestly believe that there would be tension with so many clashing cultures.

Another example is Skyrim, but that was a little silly in my opinion, Stormcloaks are for the nords and just nords kinda thing.
Empire caved in to demands rather then be destroyed blah blah blah.

 

[Dragonlayer]

I've killed so many white people in shooters and RTS games that I must be Stormfront's Anti-Christ given form.

Personally, I wasn't a huge fan of how women were used in Spec Ops: The Line. No spoilers, perse, but if you haven't played it yet, you probably shouldn't read it, as it spoils part of the tone of the game.

Anyways, the women in Spec Ops: The Line are used solely as part of the guilt trip, and there's not a single female character or combatant in the game. Thats not neccesarily fine, but at least understandable, in most games, but Spec Ops: The Line isn't most games. The game is supposed to be a deconstruction, but it stuck to this whole notion of "oh noe teh wimminz" quite unironically while demolishing any other positive myth surrounding war and the military, not to mention the metacommentary on the medium of gaming. Not only did it come off as a missed opportunity (which it most certainly was), but in retrospective it almost kind of felt insulting. Maybe they just didn't think of it, but if they did, that means this was probably the one "you can't do that" line that they didn't cross in regards to the game, and maybe they just couldn't conceive of a good way implement it if they did think of it, but I don't know that, so it just kind of feels weird against the backdrop against the rest of the game.

My problem with Naoto is that I never really got the impression that she was acting feminine because SHE wanted to. I mean if her arc was about her being tomboyish because she was too scared to act feminine when she secretly wanted to, I would've been on board with it 110%.

I don't know about you, but this is how I see Naoto's character arc, or at least to some extent. Not necessarily acting feminine, but not being afraid to act feminine. She doesn't drop everything and become more feminine if you actually romance her, she just is no longer afraid to be feminine. I mean, she pretending to be a boy so people would take her seriously, and even after that cat was out of the bag, she continued to bind her (apparently large) breasts, which are the very symbol of womanhood and femininity, and seemingly was embarrassed to even have them. Once you romance her however, she tries on the girls' uniform if you comment that you like her higher pitched voice, but then she basically concludes that its just not for her. The way I see it is that she's just no longer afraid to be feminine, although she still would rather exude masculine traits because she legitimately prefers (most of) them. I totally understand how you came to that conclusion, I just don't see it the same way is all. Then again, I'm a woman has fairly masculine gender expression[footnote]I wear lots of hoodies, like playing contact sports, am in the pursuit of a muscular body, hate dresses and most revealing clothing, wear suits to formal events, etc.[/footnote] so maybe just I'm projecting. Take this as you will.

....There were women in Spec Ops: The Line!?

On reflection, you raise a good point: would the white phosphorous scene have generated such a knee-jerk reaction of horror without focusing on the charred remains of the mother and child? Plus I think the very first depiction of torture and less then heroic American soldiers involved a female civilian so the game as a whole might not have been as revolutionary as I thought. Still a bloody fantastic game though!

 

[Dragonlayer]

Call of duty............
just Call Of Duty.....
I shouldn't have to elaborate.

Well actually, you should: are the WW2 CODs horribly racist for killing Germans and Japanese? Are the later games racially horrible for having non-Anglo Saxon enemies as the predominant targets?

Now I'll give you Black Ops II and Ghosts because they really do seem to portray ALL Hispanics as evil. I mean just look at BLOPS in particular: every single Hispanic on Earth is your enemy and the one guy who isn't, betrays you for no fucking reason whatsoever!

 

[BreakfastMan]

Personally, I wasn't a huge fan of how women were used in Spec Ops: The Line. No spoilers, perse, but if you haven't played it yet, you probably shouldn't read it, as it spoils part of the tone of the game.

Anyways, the women in Spec Ops: The Line are used solely as part of the guilt trip, and there's not a single female character or combatant in the game. Thats not neccesarily fine, but at least understandable, in most games, but Spec Ops: The Line isn't most games. The game is supposed to be a deconstruction, but it stuck to this whole notion of "oh noe teh wimminz" quite unironically while demolishing any other positive myth surrounding war and the military, not to mention the metacommentary on the medium of gaming. Not only did it come off as a missed opportunity (which it most certainly was), but in retrospective it almost kind of felt insulting. Maybe they just didn't think of it, but if they did, that means this was probably the one "you can't do that" line that they didn't cross in regards to the game, and maybe they just couldn't conceive of a good way implement it if they did think of it, but I don't know that, so it just kind of feels weird against the backdrop against the rest of the game.

Well, you do experience the game and see all of it's events through the (incredibly unreliable) eyes of the main character. Might it be that women are used that way in the story because that is how the characters see women? Just a thought...

OT: I quite like how the Vox Populi work in Bioshock Infinite. Most people think that part of the game is incredibly racist. I actually thought it did a fine job portraying how hate and violence can twist even the most noble of causes into something terrible and hurtful, and it tied in very well to the anti-violence/hate message of the game.

EDIT: Oh wait, I misread the OP. I have to talk about actual issues a game has, not just talk about issues people have with games in general... Uhm... The Metal Gear Solid series has some serious problems with women? Haven't really been gaming much recently, so not a whole lot is immediately springing to mind... Oh, right. Far Cry 3 is a damn great game, but I think it has some real race problems. Not a big fan of the "magical native tribe" thing, nor of the "white savior who is the only one who can save everyone" thing either. The twists at the end didn't help its race issues much either.

 

[The_Echo]

Y'know, sexism, racism and homophobia all involve being... like, intentionally discriminatory in some fashion.

And I can't say that I really know any games that do this.

I suppose I could reach for something like "Oh, Catherine in Catherine is dressed provocatively, that's sexist!" but it's really not. Likewise, any fighting game with sexy grills in it is just... like, it's a fighting game. A fighter's look is all they have, basically. They're just movesets with a face. Might as well make them look good.

There's some casual racism in the Elder Scrolls franchise, though it's towards fictional races so I don't know if that counts.

 

[CloudAtlas]

Two relatively recent examples:

1. I really liked Bioshock Infinite in general, but I think the portrayal of Daisy Fitzroy and the Vox Populi was very iffy. To prevent spoilers, I don't want to into detail here, but a quick Google search for "Bioshock Infinite + Racism" will tell you why. None of the reasons why I find it iffy are my own anyway; to my own shame, I didn't noticed it myself while playing B:I, I only learned about it afterwards.

2. I really liked the Mass Effect trilogy as well, and I believe BioWare is genuinely trying to make their games inclusive, but Mass Effect had several issues nonetheless. Most obviously, Miranda Lawson's notorious butt - putting her into a a really tight, paper-thin catsuit is one thing, but the camera lingering on her butt in cutscenes? Just no. Samara's outfit and her gravity-defying bosom isn't a highlight either, nor is Ashley's "makeover" (including gravity defying bosoms too, of course) for ME3. Including not just one but two socially insecure, very young virgins (Liara & Tali) as potential love interests is questionable too (and really fanservice-ish), and so was the marketing campaign of letting the audience decide the default look of FemShep for ME3.

And speaking of fanservice... I do have to wonder whether BioWare would still design the Asari the same way today as they did before. The huge commercial success of Avatar, with its much less curvaceous sexy blue aliens (but, incidentally, plenty of its own racism issues), might have given them the confidence to design their own sexy blue aliens not quite as much as buxom babes.

 

[JimB]

Hm...I'll say Final Fantasy IX. Great game, and one of the last ones with a good story, but every female PC has a love plot because I guess wanting to find a man is a required plot point for women; and Pickles* in particular is really irritating with her constant fainting and swooning and crying out for big, strong Zidane to save her. Jesus Christ, lady, you have access to powers that destroy entire kingdoms in twenty seconds!** Quit relying on the goddamned monkey and just summon Godzilla already!

--

*I dislike calling her "Dagger."
**If only in cut scenes.

 

[Lieju]

Metal Gear Solid.

Kojima can be...
Well, the problem with him (as well as the good thing about him) is that he likes putting all kinds of ridiculous extra stuff in he thinks is cool.
And it takes the form of fanservice and sexualisation quite often. Especially women.
And at its worst it negatively affects the tone and story.

Female characters walking around their zippers down just looks silly to me, and take the Beaty and the Beast unit in MGS4.
They were not characters, the way the exposition about them is given you afterwards by some random guy doesn't work, and they are heavily sexualized.

It almost could be interpreted as commentary on objectification, but I can't shake the uncomfortable feeling Kojima wanted you to find the scenes where traumatized war-orphans growel at your feet titullating.

 

[Saetha]

Two relatively recent examples:

1. I really liked Bioshock Infinite in general, but I think the portrayal of Daisy Fitzroy and the Vox Populi was very iffy. To prevent spoilers, I don't want to into detail here, but a quick Google search for "Bioshock Infinite + Racism" will tell you why. None of the reasons why I find it iffy are my own anyway; to my own shame, I didn't noticed it myself while playing B:I, I only learned about it afterwards.

2. I really liked the Mass Effect trilogy as well, and I believe BioWare is genuinely trying to make their games inclusive, but Mass Effect had several issues nonetheless. Most obviously, Miranda Lawson's notorious butt - putting her into a a really tight, paper-thin catsuit is one thing, but the camera lingering on her butt in cutscenes? Just no. Samara's outfit and her gravity-defying bosom isn't a highlight either, nor is Ashley's "makeover" (including gravity defying bosoms too, of course) for ME3. Including not just one but two socially insecure, very young virgins (Liara & Tali) as potential love interests is questionable too (and really fanservice-ish), and so was the marketing campaign of letting the audience decide the default look of FemShep for ME3.

And speaking of fanservice... I do have to wonder whether BioWare would still design the Asari the same way today as they did before. The huge commercial success of Avatar, with its much less curvaceous sexy blue aliens (but, incidentally, plenty of its own racism issues), might have given them the confidence to design their own sexy blue aliens not quite as much as buxom babes.

Err, I don't quite get what you mean with Mass Effect. I mean, yeah Miranda and Samara's outfits were a problem, and while I don't quite agree with saying Ashley's make-over was an issue, I can atleast grasp the thinking behind it. But how was making Liara and Tali romancable an issue? Or allowing the fans to pick which FemShep they liked best? They were just trying to include the fanbase.

As for the Avatar thing, I hardly think they're better than the Asari simply because they're less curvy. Didn't James Cameron essentially just show off pictures of Neytiri's character design to young men, redesigning it again and again until the majority of them went "Yeah, I'd bone her."

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

So I just recently got into Smite. Great MOBA; good characters, higher focus on positioning and map/area awareness than other MOBAs and a gold/exp system designed to make lane pushing preferred over lane freezing or tower hugging. But why do all the female character sound like typically squeamish anime girls (one would think Athena might have a more bombastic voice than that of the average anime highschool girl) and why are all but one female character stripperific to the extreme? Even after they re-designed Kali to be less oversexualized her outfit still amounts to little more than a modesty breastplate and loincloth (her previous model can best be summed up by the word "swimwear").

 

[BreakfastMan]

1. I really liked Bioshock Infinite in general, but I think the portrayal of Daisy Fitzroy and the Vox Populi was very iffy. To prevent spoilers, I don't want to into detail here, but a quick Google search for "Bioshock Infinite + Racism" will tell you why. None of the reasons why I find it iffy are my own anyway; to my own shame, I didn't noticed it myself while playing B:I, I only learned about it afterwards.

Well, that might be because that criticism is quite poorly thought out and ignores one of the most common readings of the themes/messages of the game, not to mention completely ignores the idea that stories can reflect the themes and struggles of its characters in the world itself...