Communism

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Raven_Letters

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Nov 11, 2008
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talon92 said:
My story was not intended to completely capture the philosophies of both capitalism and communism. To do that, I would require a lot more than 5 minutes in a video gaming forum. Instead, I aimed to highlight the underlying theories of each, and why I believe capitalism is superior.

I think you can realise that the story encapsulates the two major ideas of each system, at least in the economic sense.

By saying, "No man should have so much", the communist summarises what communism is all about: controlling what people have so that everyone is dealt with fairly and equally.

In replying, "All men should have so much," the capitalist highlights the core value of capitalism: allowing the people to determine for themselves what each person deserves based on their skills and traits, regardless of whether or not it is fair.

In response to the actual topic of this thread, I liken the way 'Commie' is popularly used to the way 'Gay' is commonly used. Both expressions take something that was characterized as 'bad' by the media several decades ago and somewhat satirically use it to again label something as 'bad'. I'm sure most people do not truly hate communists, but simply use the expression to fit in with popular gamer culture.

That is all.
Well so much for objectivity. To begin with you say:
"I think you can realize that the story encapsulates the two major ideas of each system, at least in the economic sense."
Two economic theories that have been debated for the better part of the past two centuries, having a myriad number of potential configurations and possibilities, is boiled down into a parable which is as far removed from objectivity and reality as possible. You speak as though there is general agreement that the parable is not only reflects the actual ideologies concerned, but also reflects the ground reality of their execution.

You continue
"controlling what people have so that everyone is dealt with fairly and equally."
Firstly control is has such wonderful negative connotations doesn't it? The Fallacy here is that you assume Communism is based on controlling the individual as opposed to Capitalism which allows the individual to do whatever he or she pleases. I think Adam Smith would have a few words to say about that subject, but lets take a closer look at what it means in practice: A simple example is the Corporation, which restricts the individual to specific tasks and places him or her in a hierarchy. The Corporation in itself, especially in the US exerts powerful influences across every aspect of Society, especially the Government if recent events have anything to say about it. So much for Control existing only in Communism.

Now lets talk about the remainder : the question of equality and fairness. For some reason you equate Communism as a society that rejects the innate capabilities and talents of individuals, being distributed unequally for reasons of providence. If you read my post HERE:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.82198?page=2#1115381

You will perhaps grasp some basic and crude understanding of Communist theory. Secondly, I find it puzzling that by your own words, Communism strives to treat each person equally, and Capitalism is not concerned with *fairness* which contradicts your previous statement about
"to determine for themselves what each person deserves based on their skills and traits,"
Surely a society which rewards individuals according to their abilities, barring serious disabilities such as physical or mental handicap, accident, illness or dependence in the cases of the very young and very old can be considered fair? If so how is it fair for a child born into privilege but lacking any real talent is provided undreamed of opportunities while a child born into poverty faces severe economic and social barriers?

What is most puzzling is that to you fairness and equal treatment are not desirable , yet at the same time people should be rewarded based on their abilities? Is this not a contradiction in terms?
 

talon92

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@ Raven_Letters:

As I said, I aimed only to highlight the underlying theories of each theory. That is, only the most basic ideas. I say nothing of Corporations (or Committees) for a specific reason, they are one layer up from the primary ideologies of each system. They are built on the foundations of each system, but do not actually form a part of them.

control has such wonderful negative connotations doesn't it?
If you would like, I can say 'direct' or 'administer' or even 'wisely and benevolently guide' if the verb really bothers you that much. Connotations sold separately.

the Corporation, which restricts the individual to specific tasks and places him or her in a hierarchy
I agree that capitalism can be a system of as much or even more control than communism. However, I would argue that communism is a system which relies on control as one of its fundamental principles. On the other hand, the control that arises in a capitalist system does not arise directly out of the system's foundations. 'Corporations' do exert control, but the choice is always there to leave the corporation, or start your own corporation and compete with them. In other words, the individual is only controlled so long as he or she is willing to be.

Surely a society which rewards individuals according to their abilities, barring serious disabilities such as physical or mental handicap, accident, illness or dependence in the cases of the very young and very old can be considered fair?
On the question of fairness, I believe that rewarding people based on their abilities is not fair. We are all human beings at the fundamental level, and just because one person was lucky enough to be born smart, or born rich, or born fit, doesn't mean they necessarily deserve to get more out of life. As everything that makes us unique (and therefore 'better' or 'worse') really comes down to chance, the only truly fair way is indeed the communist way: everyone gets the same thing, no matter what.

What is most puzzling is that to you fairness and equal treatment are not desirable , yet at the same time people should be rewarded based on their abilities? Is this not a contradiction in terms?
I do not contradict myself in promoting capitalism over the fairer communism, because capitalism isn't fair, and I did not say it was. Take care not to make assumptions.

To sum up, capitalism isn't fair, but it sure makes things interesting...
 

J.Ballzy_75

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Jan 7, 2009
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I believe I know where you are coming from. For some obscure reason I may have an answer to that works for me but won't post so as not to flame anyone, there are two separate forms of the word "communism". One form is with the capitalized 'C' and refers to the oppressive style government which you refer to. The other form, with a lower case 'c', refers to the system of government which this topic was initially intended to discuss
 

Raven_Letters

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Nov 11, 2008
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As I said, I aimed only to highlight the underlying theories of each theory. That is, only the most basic ideas. I say nothing of Corporations (or Committees) for a specific reason, they are one layer up from the primary ideologies of each system. They are built on the foundations of each system, but do not actually form a part of them.
If you wish to underline the basic theory of each system that would be fair enough, but unfortunately you seem to use a parable that is not only biased but also misleading simply because in the parable neither of the actual tenets of EITHER system is provided.

If you would like, I can say 'direct' or 'administer' or even 'wisely and benevolently guide' if the verb really bothers you that much. Connotations sold separately.

the Corporation, which restricts the individual to specific tasks and places him or her in a hierarchy
I agree that capitalism can be a system of as much or even more control than communism. However, I would argue that communism is a system which relies on control as one of its fundamental principles. On the other hand, the control that arises in a capitalist system does not arise directly out of the system's foundations. 'Corporations' do exert control, but the choice is always there to leave the corporation, or start your own corporation and compete with them. In other words, the individual is only controlled so long as he or she is willing to be.
The point here is that control is exerted by a corporation over the populace in a myriad of ways, none of which require the input or consent of the general public. Special interests influence government policy at almost every level, from anything from the Food and Drug Administration (An organization ostensibly to monitor the relevant corporations) to the SEC which as off the recent Financial meltdown has shown was not only hobbled by lack of resources but actually made irrelevant by policy.
Corporations now influence every facet of life and that includes foreign policy. One need not look at recent events with Blackwater, KBR and Halliburton, one can go further back to South American nations who have been directly affected by US power in the service of private interests.

Whats interesting here is the statement that the individual can "opt out" from corporate control. Short of actually leaving the country, the corporation(s) will continue to have a direct and indirect impact on the individual's life, with or without his or her consent. I once again point out the current financial crisis. You can no more opt out of the current financial meltdown than you can opt out of a rocket in space without a spacesuit - at least not if you want to live.

As for Communist control; theoretically the point is the complete democratization of and devolution of power, a true participatory democracy, where the citizen is statesmen as well. Granted this has not been the case, for a number or reasons but mainly because as I pointed out in my last post, communism cannot come into being in any society where a fully developed Capitalist society does into exist first. Marx was quite adamant about this.

On the question of fairness, I believe that rewarding people based on their abilities is not fair. We are all human beings at the fundamental level, and just because one person was lucky enough to be born smart, or born rich, or born fit, doesn't mean they necessarily deserve to get more out of life. As everything that makes us unique (and therefore 'better' or 'worse') really comes down to chance, the only truly fair way is indeed the communist way: everyone gets the same thing, no matter what.

What is most puzzling is that to you fairness and equal treatment are not desirable , yet at the same time people should be rewarded based on their abilities? Is this not a contradiction in terms?

I do not contradict myself in promoting capitalism over the fairer communism, because capitalism isn't fair, and I did not say it was. Take care not to make assumptions.

To sum up, capitalism isn't fair, but it sure makes things interesting...
Lets break this down first:

On the question of fairness, I believe that rewarding people based on their abilities is not fair.
We are all human beings at the fundamental level, and just because one person was lucky enough to be born smart, or born rich, or born fit, doesn't mean they necessarily deserve to get more out of life. As everything that makes us unique (and therefore 'better' or 'worse') really comes down to chance, the only truly fair way is indeed the communist way: everyone gets the same thing, no matter what.
This begs the question then precisely on what criteria should they be rewarded on? Once again I must admit that I am puzzled since to my reading of Smith, Capitalism is a MERITOCRACY [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations#Meritocracy]and through using ones latent talents, and improving oneself and laboring onwards one rises in society. This means that Capitalism makes no room for people born into wealth no more than those born into poverty, everyone starts off on an equal footing. Unfortunately as in the case of Communism, the reality is far from theory. Those born rich have access to a formidable arrays of resources and assets and this is reflected in the economic and political power that they wield. Be it in a structured organization such as a corporation or as individual actors.

Your statement about "deserving" is also quite peculiar. Capitalism does not promise a cradle to the grave utopia, no more than Communism does, or vice versa. You then attribute to Communism something that I had already pointed out in my earlier post is not true. The individual gains equal access to the means of production and its resources. its up to HIM to make something out of it. Communism only ensures a level playing field. Thats all. You make it sound as though Communism will create this borg like, homogenized mass of interdependant organism functioning as some over arching hive mind.

I do not contradict myself in promoting capitalism over the fairer communism, because capitalism isn't fair, and I did not say it was. Take care not to make assumptions.

To sum up, capitalism isn't fair, but it sure makes things interesting...
Lets go back to your previous post for a moment:

In replying, "All men should have so much," the capitalist highlights the core value of capitalism: allowing the people to determine for themselves what each person deserves based on their skills and traits, regardless of whether or not it is fair.
This statement is not true of Capitalism, since it states that somehow people as a group polity and some unspecified criteria determine what an individual gets. Are you telling me you and your neighbor are going to determine the salaries of the CEOs of the Fortune 500 companies? Secondly, your statement contradicts itself since you then go on to say that people get what they do DEPENDENT on skills and traits.

I make no assumptions. This is what you wrote.

Finally "regardless of what is fair?" the whole POINT of Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations was a matter of FAIRNESS! It was a treatise on how to reward the most productive members of society, those that enrich and provide valuable *services*. It was an attack on the previous FEUDAL system of society which distributed resources based on the circumstances of BIRTH not ABILITY.

Again theory falls short of reality, but Adam Smith was clear about that much atleast.

One can argue that your entire defense is a defense of FEUDALISM not CAPITALISM.
 

Johnn Johnston

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May 4, 2008
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Some parts of the Communist manifesto could work if used in conjunction with ideals from other forms of government; communism in its purest form celebrates equality, but also leaves no extra reward for working hard.
 

goodman528

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Jul 30, 2008
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Yer, Communism is much misused as the by-word for oppression, unfairness, evil in general. Western propaganda does a very good job misrepresenting events behind the "Iron Curtain"; for example, the man who stopped the Tanks at Tianmen in '89, has it ever occurred to any of you before that it shows exactly the opposite to what it now commonly represents today? It shows the constraint of the tank commander, he could have kept on driving, he could have used the mounted MG, he could have just got out and beaten the guy senseless. But he didn't. Has any of you ever asked "Where is the infantry support for that tank column?". Or, why was the protestors able to walk around in that area in the first place? How many of you know of the army group that entered the city before, and after a few days were persuaded by the civilians to move out again?

In comparison to the American response to the riots in the 60s and 70s, the Chinese response in '89 was not nearly as shocking as the western media has lead us to believe.

Anyway, enough rambling. The point is, everyone hates dictatorship and authoritarianism. What people think of as communism is what communists think of as opportunists and traitors to communism. BTW, if you watch videos of Tiananmen demonstrations in '89, you'll see they are waving the red flags with hammer and sickle. The protest is against dictatorship, oppression, and corruption. Not against communism.
 

TwistedEllipses

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Nov 18, 2008
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I think it would help if more people would know the terminology:
what's the difference between a Marxist, a socialist, a stalinist, a maoist and all the other terms that have been lumped together into what people assume a communist is.