Concepts for a new MMORPG - your thoughts?

[Aqualung]

Regarding the in-game Wiki, you should check LotRO- they have something called a Lorebook that you can access at any point in the game, and has information of every character, quest, place, maps, etc.

But I like your ideas. I also think first person would be a bad idea- especially since it's an MMO. People enjoy customizing their character and being able to view their own avatars, so spending a long time designing yourself, and then playing from behind the camera, is a little disappointing.

And not having classes or levels- it's nice, but a little unstructured. Maybe you might want to consider having at least, say, Modern Warfare-esque slot-able 'perks'? Perhaps players could earn an accuracy perk by reaching a certain number of headshots, like an achievement? Just a thought.

Also, I'd like to hear some ideas of how you would make the game playable in terms of keeping the players coming back, since the rough outline you gave sounds like there's little to 'accomplish'. Maybe ideas on mounts/vehicles would be good, too- and if so, mounted combat could definitely be a plus.

But yay, good for you! Maybe in a few years, if this hits the road, I can write for you.

 

[blackadder8]

I like the colonization idea; britain (having of course survived the nuclear holocaust) could have some sort of neo east india company and impose its dominion over europe

 

[Chipperz]

Regarding the in-game Wiki, you should check LotRO- they have something called a Lorebook that you can access at any point in the game, and has information of every character, quest, place, maps, etc.

I don't know LotRO specifically, but I'd assume it's the same as Warhammer Online's Tome of Knowledge? Yeah, it's PRETTY MUCH the same thing, just, because it's (more or less) modern day, it's literally a wiki page. One thing that I do want to have is the ability for players to make their own wiki pages for themselves and their Clans. It'd also have in-game tips on how to, say, forage for items or where to complete certain missions.

But I like your ideas. I also think first person would be a bad idea- especially since it's an MMO. People enjoy customizing their character and being able to view their own avatars, so spending a long time designing yourself, and then playing from behind the camera, is a little disappointing.

And not having classes or levels- it's nice, but a little unstructured. Maybe you might want to consider having at least, say, Modern Warfare-esque slot-able 'perks'? Perhaps players could earn an accuracy perk by reaching a certain number of headshots, like an achievement? Just a thought.

I like the idea of slottable "perks", and seeing as I'm going to have achievements anyway (if it's on PSN and XBL, I don't have a choice, so fuck it) I may as well make them meaningful. I hadn't considered the idea of actually using them like Modern Warfare Perks, but it makes sense, and is very cool...

Also, I'd like to hear some ideas of how you would make the game playable in terms of keeping the players coming back, since the rough outline you gave sounds like there's little to 'accomplish'. Maybe ideas on mounts/vehicles would be good, too- and if so, mounted combat could definitely be a plus.

If I'm honest, I'm pretty much relying on the endgame being the running of the clans and settling the wastelands. There'll also be a few places that you might be able to find alien weapons/other truly advanced tech, but I want them to remain a rarity that only the best clan leaders have access to. I'm also planning on regular expansions that add in new areas to explore/take over. Another area I was considering expanding into was a single player series of DLC which takes you to parts of the game's history, fighting in the alien invasion that wrecks the world, being present at the founding of some of the major factions etc, and then have leader boards and achievements based on them, as well as vanity items like T-Shirts, non-combat pets and cosmetic weapon upgrades for in the actual game which should hopefully extend the life of the game.

As for mounts/vehicles, the plan at the moment is to focus on the on foot game in the first game as it's set in the junkyards of England, and then bring in mutant mounts and various vehicles* in the first expansion, and having it on motorways and wide open fields. When I add in vehicles, I also want to add in the option for playable nomad clans, and that's what's stumping me at the moment.

But yay, good for you! Maybe in a few years, if this hits the road, I can write for you.

Heh, if you know anything about modern-day France, I'll hire you the second I start getting this made

EDIT!

I like the colonization idea; britain (having of course survived the nuclear holocaust) could have some sort of neo east india company and impose its dominion over europe

That's KIND OF what I have in mind for the sequels. It's a sort of cross between the second season of Buck Rogers and colonial Europe at it's height - A group of American refugees in England rebuild the Channel tunnel and go off to Europe, looking for the lost tribes of America

*Unintentional alliteration for the win!

 

[TheFacelessOne]

I dare you to look up a book called, "Epic". It's about a...well, I won't bore you with details. But basically, a society is based around a huge MMO called, "Epic". And it has some great features, I think.

I can't explain it. READ IT.

Will you accept some concept art? I love to make awesome weapons.

(We are talking fantasy MMORPG, right?)

CRAP! YOU SUCK!

Well, can I still design some weapons?

 

[Chipperz]

I dare you to look up a book called, "Epic". It's about a...well, I won't bore you with details. But basically, a society is based around a huge MMO called, "Epic". And it has some great features, I think.

I can't explain it. READ IT.

Any chance there's a comic or film? I'm barely literate as it is!

Naah, I'm kidding, I'll add it to the "check it out!!" pile.

Will you accept some concept art? I love to make awesome weapons.

(We are talking fantasy MMORPG, right?)

It's Post-Apocalyptic. if you wanna try your hand at drawing weapons out of everyday objects, I don't think I can in my right mind object I can't draw. I either have to make the weapons in 3Ds Max (primarily for guns) or actually make the weapons in real life and take photos which is... A lot of fun

EDIT! Bah, ninja'd! Yeah sure, go nuts

 

[TheFacelessOne]

I dare you to look up a book called, "Epic". It's about a...well, I won't bore you with details. But basically, a society is based around a huge MMO called, "Epic". And it has some great features, I think.

I can't explain it. READ IT.

Any chance there's a comic or film? I'm barely literate as it is!

Naah, I'm kidding, I'll add it to the "check it out!!" pile.

Will you accept some concept art? I love to make awesome weapons.

(We are talking fantasy MMORPG, right?)

It's Post-Apocalyptic. if you wanna try your hand at drawing weapons out of everyday objects, I don't think I can in my right mind object I can't draw. I either have to make the weapons in 3Ds Max (primarily for guns) or actually make the weapons in real life and take photos which is... A lot of fun

Hmm...can I make up my own weapons? As in, weapons that aren't made from junk?

And is this retro like Fallout, or a more modern future?

 

[Chipperz]

*snip*

Hmm...can I make up my own weapons? As in, weapons that aren't made from junk?

And is this retro like Fallout, or a more modern future?

I won't turn down ANY help with concept art - if you can think it up and want to draw it, I'll happily take a look at it I'll even credit you in the design document

It's modern future - in this game, the apocalypse happens June 2050 after branching off on an "alternate" (yet eerily accurate so far) timeline in 2002. By then, there's basic robots, cybernetics and computers directly linked into the brain, to give you an idea of the tech level.

 

[shannon.archer]

It sounds like you stole my topic...

 

[Chipperz]

It sounds like you stole my topic...

How so?

Also, after a couple of offers for help, if anyone else wants to gimme a hand, send me a message/reply on here and I'll credit you in the Design Document too

 

[El Poncho]

If the combat isn't a big part of the game how will fighting the guilds for land be fun?

I think combat should be as big as an option as the other things.

 

[Chipperz]

If the combat isn't a big part of the game how will fighting the guilds for land be fun?

I think combat should be as big as an option as the other things.

OK, I worded it badly. I don't want combat to be the major part of the game - You wouldn't have to fight the guilds for land, you could trade for it with stuff you've made, sneak in and sabotage their power and demolish some of their buildings in the confusion, work out an alliance diplomatically... Of course, you could still march in and shoot everyone and just take it. I just want more approaches than hitting each other to be viable.

Besides, no reason you couldn't combine them - diplomatically work out a solution but play for time while a group of stealthy players go in and set charges on key buildings then, when they're detonated, rush in and kill everything with your fighters.

 

[Redratson]

Now If we can only get the funding to produce such a game

 

[Chipperz]

I, like you, am also interested in making an MMORPG, being a Games Designer already who's trained and is actually still learning more techniques through different courses that interest me.

However, I can tell you a few things that would interest a serious MMORPG player such as myself.

1. Keep it mature. I know that the younger kids bring in the more money, but really. It decreases popularity of the game.

I'm half-considering aiming for an AO title, just because I want it to be realistic, and that involves sex, violence and drugs in slightly more "graphic" ways than the likes of Saints Row or GTA.

2. Give it a F2P side as well as a P2P part. If you don't already know what that means, although I'm sure you do, F2P - Free to Play, P2P - Pay to Play. I know a popular game called Perfect World which i like a lot, its completly free to play, but you can get additions to your character/avatar/toon by buying off the "Boutique" which uses a system involving real money, although if you gain enough ingame currency, you can actually purchase it without the need to pay for real. Although it's quite expensive sometimes. Its a good system, really.

Kinda like Microtransactions for cosmetic upgrades? I was THINKING about that. I hadn't considered the idea of having them available to buy as well, but that could work quite well.

3. Not everything has to be combat orientated, make social places like in game bars/taverns or something along those lines. You'll be surprised how effective it is!

This is the truth. I'm in the middle of trying to work out how I could encourage inter-clan trade, just to set up scenarios where members of different clans could meet up in a bar to discuss trade agreements and generally interact in a manner that doesn't involve pointing at each other with shotguns.

4. PvP (Player vs Player) this is the big part of any MMORPG, but many people quit over it. Make sure if a player loses, they have the penalty such as losing items or such, but have a chance to get back on their feet. Although in a Duel, you normally don't lose much. (Apart from self esteem)

The penalties I have in mind for PvP (and death in general) is that there is a period where your body can be looted for everything you aren't equipped with - you'll keep the gold-plated boomstick and mega-boosted power armour you were fighting with, but the loot in your bag is fair game for anyone who comes across your corpse.

5. Beauty is everything. Customization is what killed WoW for me, its rather cathartic to have several of the same people running around, and it gets annoying. And a lot of special effects are quite nice, but make sure its not grand enough to cause even the best computers to lag. A majority of gamers don't have suited up PC's like more hard core gamers.

Christ yes. I was also considering ripping o borrowing from Saints Row 2 the idea of different voices and animations - even three or four different ones would make everything seem just that little bit better.

Theres a lot more but gotta keep somethings to myself you know? We are technically rivals after all, however I'd love to help out when I can, keep in touch with me if your interested.

Hey man, you've helped immensly with that already, and there's no reason that a market can't sustain two MMORPGs at the same time Likewise, although I don't have the practical experience, if I can help you out at all, gimme a yell

Also, on a forum I used to go to years and years ago, my avatar got me the nickname "The Almighty Wabbit". I'm actually quite scared of the similarities

Now If we can only get the funding to produce such a game

Well, I'm planning on getting the initial design document to a few developers/publishers within the next twelve months, so wish me luck

 

[Nutcase]

I'm going to tackle these two together (looking back, they should have been). The whole idea of combat is that, in any MMORPG, there is always a few "best" ways to fight with set rotations. Eventually, it may as well be automated because players do it anyway.

"MMO" and "RPG" really say nothing about how combat has to be implemented (if there is combat at all). The combat can be exactly as skill-based or luck-based, strategy-based or execution-based as you design it to be.

You can bind skill rotation macros in in WoW, for instance, but there is no point in a decent player doing that for PvP because the player has to adapt on the fly to whatever the opponent does.

 

[Contun]

Good luck with your career. Hopefully one day we can look back and say:

Hey, I think that guy posted on the Escapist...

 

[Chipperz]

I'm going to tackle these two together (looking back, they should have been). The whole idea of combat is that, in any MMORPG, there is always a few "best" ways to fight with set rotations. Eventually, it may as well be automated because players do it anyway.

"MMO" and "RPG" really say nothing about how combat has to be implemented (if there is combat at all). The combat can be exactly as skill-based or luck-based, strategy-based or execution-based as you design it to be.

You can bind skill rotation macros in in WoW, for instance, but there is no point in a decent player doing that for PvP because the player has to adapt on the fly to whatever the opponent does.

I couldn't agree more! I think a lot of what most modern MMORPGs do wrong is that they have seen World of Warcraft's system and decided that it works, so they shouldn't try to fix it. I think this is also why so many of these games failed so badly.

Also, I don't know how, but I'd ideally like PvP combat and PvE combat to feel the same. My main thoughts on the matter involve making PvE combat more random - have it that aggro doesn't always work, or that traditionally ranged enemies run to get into melee or vice versa. Having to adapt each fight could be a good way of keeping the game fresh, too - it would be a lot harder to get bored of Wolves if they tried different things in different fights...

Good luck with your career. Hopefully one day we can look back and say:

Hey, I think that guy posted on the Escapist...

Fact - unless I get banned, I WILL come on here with a post of "MY GAME GOT PICKED UP!!!". I will then get shot down by a thousand forum vigilantes telling me that my post has no discussion.

 

[TsunamiWombat]

HAY I UPDATED AND ORGANIZED THIS

Combat

Make automatic combat an option, or something. Combat is the main draw for the game, always will be, don't assume your customer is automatinc the combat. Also, automatic combat opens the door for easy botting. What you can do is have intelligent context actions- characters take cover by whats closest to them automatically based on what direction they're being threatened from (of course you can change this with 1 or 2 clicks), switch to close up weapons when up close - of course this can be changed in options, and what weapons can be changed via in game menu's, etc. But NEVER ever EVER ever NEVER ever NEVER ever take control AWAY from the player. Never. Ever.

Development
Yeah, classes suck, and the "do and you get better" system has been done to generally okay effect before. Let me suggest that you allow players to 'tag' a certain number of skillsets ala Fallout, giving a small boost to those skills and increasing the rate those skills develop. That number of tags should increase based on level, perhaps a max of 2 tags at creation to a max of 6 at level cap.

As for levels in general... Hard to avoid them. You can tie them to arbitrary development/EXP points if you wish, or take the Fallout route again and have characters level as they increase their skills. In either case I strongly advocate the (once again, Fallout) approach of having characters be able to acces 'perks' or 'feats' as they level, increasing customization options.

Customization

I like your idea of modding base equipment, but there should be 1. Many different types of base items with a robust customization system - see NWN's moddable clothing where you could interchange bodypart peices - and 2. The mod's themselves should appear cosmetically.

Microtransactions for cosmetic updates make baby jesus sad if ALL the cosmetics are microtransact. That being said Micro's are a gold mine. So SOME cosmetics should be micro'd, also pet creatures maybe, and cosmetics for said pets! Or vehicles/mounts/whatever.

While a handgun is a handgun is a handgun, you should keep in mind various subgroups in that area. Don't just have "handgun" and thats it, give us revolvers, autoloaders, and hand cannons(desert eagle, Magnum, etc). Oh, allow visual customization of weapons, plzkthnxz. Let me pick it's color, it's grip, let me visually see the modifications...

Economy

Yeah, thats a bad idea. I think you should go with a basic monetary system supplemented by bartering (ONCE AGAIN!) like Fallout.

Money

Making your game ad dependent will make startup hard, because big companies don't want to go in on something that could fail. MMO's are a dime a dozen buddy. Also, advert running suggests this will be a triple A product, and creating an MMO triple A is a HUGE undertaking.

Microtransactions are the name of the game bubba. Let people customize EVERYTHING, and you should definatly give them some free options, including one's they can loot. But you should also give them the opportunity to just BUY those items instead of grinding for them (I think an escapist article discussed this once). The more ways you can think to offer players microtransactions without affecting the core product or nickle and diming them to death, the better. NEVER allow micro's to improve core game skills or to buy gameplay affecting items.

Bummer

I hate to be the slayer of dreams, but maybe you should start off... smaller. Publishers aren't going to pick such an ambitious title up off the floor- well they may, but not you with it. Hard to copywrite an idea... Just saying, watch your ass.

 

[Nutcase]

I'm going to tackle these two together (looking back, they should have been). The whole idea of combat is that, in any MMORPG, there is always a few "best" ways to fight with set rotations. Eventually, it may as well be automated because players do it anyway.

"MMO" and "RPG" really say nothing about how combat has to be implemented (if there is combat at all). The combat can be exactly as skill-based or luck-based, strategy-based or execution-based as you design it to be.

You can bind skill rotation macros in in WoW, for instance, but there is no point in a decent player doing that for PvP because the player has to adapt on the fly to whatever the opponent does.

I couldn't agree more! I think a lot of what most modern MMORPGs do wrong is that they have seen World of Warcraft's system and decided that it works, so they shouldn't try to fix it. I think this is also why so many of these games failed so badly.

Wait, what?

You were claiming that MMO combat is bound to boil down to canned rotations, and using that to justify your choice of automated combat as the one obvious design choice.

I was arguing against that logic with the example of WoW PvP, which does not easily boil down to canned rotations. So I'm praising what WoW's combat design does right.

Also, I don't know how, but I'd ideally like PvP combat and PvE combat to feel the same. My main thoughts on the matter involve making PvE combat more random - have it that aggro doesn't always work, or that traditionally ranged enemies run to get into melee or vice versa. Having to adapt each fight could be a good way of keeping the game fresh, too - it would be a lot harder to get bored of Wolves if they tried different things in different fights...

I consider it a must for PvP and PvE combat to not just feel the same, but work under the same rules. The "why" can probably be argued directly from the nature of the game balancing process, but I won't attempt it right now.

The "how" part which you are struggling with is not complicated. Remove the universal threat mechanic entirely, and give mobs tougher AIs, different ones according to mob type.

A humanoid mob, equipped with the toughest kind of AI, should play as much like a human as the AI programmer skills, budget, and server computation capacity afford. Dumber mobs would have progressively simpler AIs, with less capacity for planning.

For a WoW example, a NPC mage could try to save its Counterspell to shut down your most dangerous spell tree, or a key spell, instead of just throwing it at something at random. It could conserve Blink for your stuns, Ice Block for your CC and DoT pile, but use them more freely if you have no access to a threat like that or have blown the related cooldowns already. It could bandage or Evocate if you are healing yourself at distance and it has nothing to stop that. It could use frost spells and run to keep you from getting to melee distance.