Confederate Flags in Northern States

[Verrenxnon]

This:

Spoiler

Is the flag of the Confederacy.

THIS:

Spoiler

Is what ignorant people cling to when they try to disguise their racism as "Southern roots" or "Southern heritage."

For those in the southern states: do you see more of the former than the latter? Living in a northern state, I've never seen the former.

 

[fundayz]

What exactly is the point of it? Is it emblematic of racism, symbolic of "country" values, indicative of being a rebel, or something else entirely?

Or is it only because mud-flap girls look better backed by a Confederate Flag than by stainless steel?

White trash being white trash. More thought probably went into this thread than their choice of bumper stickers.

 

[dex-dex]

Who would have a Confederate flag anywhere? Why would someone cheer for losers?

I own a Vancouver Canucks Jersey....

-m

yeah not as bad as owning a Toronto maple leafs jersey.
and I know too many people who own them.

 

[Kpt._Rob]

I'm German and the Nazi flag was at one point the flag of our nation. Does that mean that we should still use it? My point here I guess is that I find the Confederate flag something that's pretty damn offensive. I mean how many people do you see rocking the Prussian flag? Not too many because they kinda lost the war.

This is the kind of ignorance that needs to stop.

Why do people find the confederate flag offensive? It has mostly to do with the negative connotations that the north imposed after the civil war.

The symbol of the Confederate States has absolutely nothing to with with racism or slavery - that's what the "victor" has made it out to be. It's true that the history books are written by the victors, and this is a prime example.

The civil war was never about slavery - it started because the north didn't want a seperated Union. Forget the fact that the southern states had included in their state constitutions the reservation to be able to succede from the north if the situation called for it. The federal government was attempting to force the southern states to adopt policies that they were against - at the same time where they were trying to cooperate with the northern states, the northern states were not keeping up their end of the bargain. The situation boiled over and the southern states formed their own union, while being within their own rights to do so. The Northern states (i.e. the federal government) wanted the south to drastically change and alter their economy, meanwhile offering no supportive means to do so. The south simply couldn't afford to make such radical changes to their economy, not without the backing of the federal government . . . which they didn't have.

The north pressed for the war. The south didn't want to fight, and through the majority of the war didn't make many attempts at an offensive. The war was a bout a seperated country, not about any specific regions living style. That was tacked on later by the union to try and raise support from their European friends (mostly France), who smartly stayed out of the whole mess because of how closely tied to the southern trade economy they were.

As per todays interpretation - it continues to be viewed as a symbol of hate and racism, when that never had anything to do with it. Slaves were treated much better than the history books make it out to be; so much so that very few slaves actually moved northwards after the war and after being given their "freedom." Quite the contrary, many continued to live in the south working the same lands as they had for decades prior - the only difference was that they were now paid for their services. Sure, there were some that were made an example of, but the vast majority were never touched. I ask you, what good is a beaten slave? What good is someone who's been physicially impared from working? It's counter-intuitive.

One CAN NOT equate the Confederate flag to the flag of the Nazi regime. These are two entirelly different entities with two drastically different opposing views. The Nazi regime was hell-bent and determined to "purge" the world of those they felt were detrimental to human race as a whole. The Confederate States were simply trying to continue living the way they had been, to protect their way of life - meanwhile being told what they were going to do and how to do it.

Trying to equate display of the Confederate flag to that of the Nazi regime has got to be one of THE most ignorant statements I've heard in a long while. It's that fuddled way of thinking that has given rise to a symbol of heritage and pride being considered a symbol of racism and hate.

Look man, I grew up in Oklahoma, we've got a lot of rednecky folks out here, and I heard the whole made up bullshit story that they tell redneck kids about how the Civil War wasn't about slavery (so as not to piss off any redneck parents), but that story just lacks any intellectual honesty. Yes, Slavery was not the ONLY reason for the Civil War [incidentally, your statement about Nazis was also wrong, because their disgusting eugenic practices were not the ONLY reason for WWII either, meaning that the metaphor with the Nazi flag is actually pretty apt], but the major reason the South wanted to secede was because they were afraid that the practice would be outlawed. One of the topics Bill Maher has talked about quite a bit the past couple of weeks on his show is the strange fascination that Southerners have with the Civil War, and he's made some really good points, the biggest being that if your ancestors were, for example, slave owners, or people who fought to maintain the South's right to secede so that they could continue in the practice of slavery, then maybe you shouldn't be so proud of your heritage to start with.

Every single ancestor I have could've been a slave holder, my own parent's could have been dedicated KKK members, whatever, it doesn't matter, heritage would not be a valid excuse for me to wave the Confederate flag. That flag is a symbol of a lot of things, but anyone who's being honest knows that the big thing it's a symbol of, especially today, is racism and slavery. Saying that it's about anything else indicates either a flimsy disingenuousness about the person making the statement, or indicates that they have been brainwashed into holding a genuinely ignorant stance.

 

[Mumorpuger]

This:

Spoiler

Is the flag of the Confederacy.

THIS:

Spoiler

Is what ignorant people cling to when they try to disguise their racism as "Southern roots" or "Southern heritage."

For those in the southern states: do you see more of the former than the latter? Living in a northern state, I've never seen the former.

I live in Texas, and I've never seen the actual flag of the Confederacy on personal display. The battle flag, aka "stars and bars," is what I see on trucks, outside houses and such.

In actuality, I would not mind people flying the former flag at all, but all the bumper stickers of "Heritage Not Hate" that I see in conjunction with the battle flag make me cringe. It's ignorance at it's finest.

 

[countrysteaksauce]

This thread is funny. I live in South Carolina, the original "hellhole of secession," and the Confederate flag (Let's not get into the issue of it being the battle standard rather than the "official" flag) flies here pretty often, almost as much as the actual American flag. Certainly, there might be people that are racist and fly it to represent that belief. However, for the most part, the flag has lost its meaning and is just a symbol of the South. It is more a matter of regional pride and the glorification of all that comes along with it, rather than a purely historical symbol. The racist connotations are much like the religious connotations of "One nation, under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance; they have been repeated and portrayed so often as to become trite and meaningless.

 

[Macgyvercas]

I should point out that the people who think the Confederate flag originally stood for racism are highly misinformed.

The South wanted to break with the North due to conflicts over which had more authority (the federal government or the individual states), and the South needed a flag (both for battle, which we are talking about here, and for government) that was separate from the flag of the Union to symbolize secession. The Civil War wasn't even about slavery until 1863 when Abraham Licoln issued the Emancipation Proclaimation.

The Confederate flag was associated with racism after the war ended because it was used by the founding members of the Ku Klux Klan (most of whom were Confederate veterans).

And for the record, if the South had focused on winning the war as a unified country, THEN pursuing state's rights, they might have had a better chance. It would also have helped if Lee had been at the First Battle of Bull Run. Conversely, the North could have ended the war at Antietam if McLellan had pursued Lee. Meade could have ended the war at Gettysburg after the repulse of Pickett's Charge if he had pursued (since the Confederates would have pinned at the river they needed to cross).

 

[deleted_scifidownbeat]

DELETED

 

[Levi93]

Not being American or being too familar with America history or culture, I always associate the flag with the dukes of hazard.

 

[imperialreign]

Sorry sparky but I don't quite follow. Germany+ Austria were simply trying to regain the land that was, at one point, RIGHTFULLY theirs and silly poland was only trying to keep it from them. You do realize that the murdering of all the Jews wasn't implemented until well into the actual war. Now I'm not trying to justify WWII or the murdering of millions of innocents by any means at all, however you are. When you're saying that the southern flag doesn't stand for slavery I call bullshit. I also call BS about the south Succeeding for, as you're implying, "Nobel and righteous reasons." That among these are life, liberty, and the oh f**k those first two if you're black! I must dash however I will be more than willing to elaborate at a later date.

The big difference was what the Nazi regime implimented for their cause - they made that choice to make such actions part of their war. The southern states did not succede over slavery - it was an aspect of the war that was made a point of the north.

The whole action of succession stemed from the constitutions of the souther states, which were enacted when these states moved from colonies to that of being states recognized by the union. By doing so, the union also recognized these state's constitutions. The constitutions of the southern states included provisions for their ability to ignore acts of the federal government - if the state felt that such acts were unconstitutional to the state as a whole. As things progressed, the federal government denied the states this right, and wouldn't recognize any decisions or actions such states took over an "unconstitutional" federal act. WIth the federal government passing more and more acts that only affected the southern states, it literally pushed these states to take action - they followed their constitution and succeded.

It's no different than the original 13 colonies suceeding from the British crown. The colonies were fed-up with numerous aspects, but mostly, that of a government telling them what they were allowed to do.

When you say the southern flag stands for slavery, I call BS.

Why does it always seem that the vast majority of people who make such claims never grew up in the south?

This:

Spoiler

Is the flag of the Confederacy.

THIS:

Spoiler

Is what ignorant people cling to when they try to disguise their racism as "Southern roots" or "Southern heritage."

You do realize the former flag was the First National Confederate flag, right? While the latter is the BAttle Flag which is a variant of the Second National Confederate flag. Both are representative of the Confederated States . . . it's simply that the latter was never used in any formal means to represent the Confederacy. That doesn't make it any less of a symbol of the south. It informally represented the CSA when the troops went to battle . . . I'd say that's enough of an association.



This isn't about racism, nor hate - it's about a part of America's past that a large region continue to honor and remember as that of heritage and a dedication to protect one's own way of life. To be willing to stand up for your own beliefs and what you hold dear whether or not it's want the majority want you to do and/or believe. It's for defending one's way of life from being forced to live how others wish you to. It's a symbol of the true American spirit, the same spirit that founded this great nation in the face of unmeasurable adversities.

People will only see what they want to associate with any symbol. You see racism and hatred . . . I see spirit and heritage.

 

[Nosense]

Are we talking about the national flag of the former CSA or their battle colors? Not that rednecks would know the difference sadly.

 

[rutger5000]

I'm German and the Nazi flag was at one point the flag of our nation. Does that mean that we should still use it? My point here I guess is that I find the Confederate flag something that's pretty damn offensive. I mean how many people do you see rocking the Prussian flag? Not too many because they kinda lost the war.

This is the kind of ignorance that needs to stop.

Why do people find the confederate flag offensive? It has mostly to do with the negative connotations that the north imposed after the civil war.

The symbol of the Confederate States has absolutely nothing to with with racism or slavery - that's what the "victor" has made it out to be. It's true that the history books are written by the victors, and this is a prime example.

The civil war was never about slavery - it started because the north didn't want a seperated Union. Forget the fact that the southern states had included in their state constitutions the reservation to be able to succede from the north if the situation called for it. The federal government was attempting to force the southern states to adopt policies that they were against - at the same time where they were trying to cooperate with the northern states, the northern states were not keeping up their end of the bargain. The situation boiled over and the southern states formed their own union, while being within their own rights to do so. The Northern states (i.e. the federal government) wanted the south to drastically change and alter their economy, meanwhile offering no supportive means to do so. The south simply couldn't afford to make such radical changes to their economy, not without the backing of the federal government . . . which they didn't have.

The north pressed for the war. The south didn't want to fight, and through the majority of the war didn't make many attempts at an offensive. The war was a bout a seperated country, not about any specific regions living style. That was tacked on later by the union to try and raise support from their European friends (mostly France), who smartly stayed out of the whole mess because of how closely tied to the southern trade economy they were.

As per todays interpretation - it continues to be viewed as a symbol of hate and racism, when that never had anything to do with it. Slaves were treated much better than the history books make it out to be; so much so that very few slaves actually moved northwards after the war and after being given their "freedom." Quite the contrary, many continued to live in the south working the same lands as they had for decades prior - the only difference was that they were now paid for their services. Sure, there were some that were made an example of, but the vast majority were never touched. I ask you, what good is a beaten slave? What good is someone who's been physicially impared from working? It's counter-intuitive.

One CAN NOT equate the Confederate flag to the flag of the Nazi regime. These are two entirelly different entities with two drastically different opposing views. The Nazi regime was hell-bent and determined to "purge" the world of those they felt were detrimental to human race as a whole. The Confederate States were simply trying to continue living the way they had been, to protect their way of life - meanwhile being told what they were going to do and how to do it.

Trying to equate display of the Confederate flag to that of the Nazi regime has got to be one of THE most ignorant statements I've heard in a long while. It's that fuddled way of thinking that has given rise to a symbol of heritage and pride being considered a symbol of racism and hate.

Doesn't matter. I haven't received American education, so all I know about the American Civil war is from movies and Wikipedia. I do trust Wikipedia to be the stuff that's inside the history books though, and like it or not that is accepted as the truth. The confederate flag was the flag of the slave states. With that it's the flag of the racists states, and with that it's the American equivalent of the Nazi flag. Whether it's justified or not, that's the way it is.
If you want some more resemblance with the Nazi flag? The Swastika is an age old symbol for good luck, but now it's associated with the Nazi's ideology, and it's considered racist to walk around it in Germany. It's not justified to connect the swastika with that, but that doesn't matter. It's still racist because of the feelings invoked in people due to history.
If you walked around a confederate flag I would address you about it, if you walked around with one in a black church or something I would hit you.
Also the whole American civil war is almost 150 years ago, anybody who was conscious by then is dead now. That makes it about time to trust the history books, or at the very least respect the people who do. Thus if the history books make it something racist and offensive it is racist and offensive

 

[deleted_scifidownbeat]

DELETED

 

[imperialreign]

Doesn't matter. I haven't received American education, so all I know about the American Civil war is from movies and Wikipedia. I do trust Wikipedia to be the stuff that's inside the history books though, and like it or not that is accepted as the truth. The confederate flag was the flag of the slave states. With that it's the flag of the racists states, and with that it's the American equivalent of the Nazi flag. Whether it's justified or not, that's the way it is.

Sure - wikipedia is a plethora of solid and sound fact. Sorry, but if you were to write a paper for most US colleges, and quote wikipedia as a source . . . you better have quite a few other sources to back that information up. It's not accepted as "truth."

Again - the history books are written by the victors, and much truth is lost to memory. You make it sound as if you're not from the US, but yet you're basing your association of a symbol on that of what the majority want to view it as. That, plain and simple, is ignorance.

. . . and how in the hell can you claim the slave states were racist states? Really?! You do realize many territories as far west as the now Californian border were slave territories, correct? Simply because a state or territory practised slavery does not make the state as a whole racist. There were many slaves that were not of african descent - hell, even some of my own ancestors (of baltic blood) were slaves for this nation.

If you walked around a confederate flag I would address you about it, if you walked around with one in a black church or something I would hit you.

I would welcome such an display of your ignorance. Making such statements is assinine - it's easy for one to speak big when sitting behind their own computer screen. I have to assume based on your earlier statements that you're not american, either . . . and I can't hold any respect for someone not of American heritage to make such a claim as to what actions they'd take.

Also the whole American civil war is almost 150 years ago, anybody who was conscious by then is dead now. That makes it about time to trust the history books, or at the very least respect the people who do. Thus if the history books make it something racist and offensive it is racist and offensive

Wow . . .

I mean, holy shit . . .

This statement just leaves me dumb-founded.

So, you mean to say that even if the history books are biased, that we should simply ignore that and take what someone else dictates to us as dogma? Really? If you think you know so much about American history as you claim to do (based on your usage of wikipedia), they'd you'd also know that American's aren't exactly ones to sit there and let others decide for us.

Again, THE HISTORY BOOKS ARE NOT WHAT MAKE THE CONFEDERATE FLAG TO BE A SYMBOL OF RACISM AND HATE!!! it is THE PEOPLE WHO'VE ASSOCIATED RACISM AND HATE WITH A SYMBOL.

 

[viranimus]

oh, skully. the party names slowly reversed in the decade or so after the civil war. so, what was a democrat's platform then is a republican's now, and vice versa. >.<

Thank you. QFT.

As for the flag, it represents regional pride, heritage and a long standing history of rebellion. Applying the racist connotation was little more than northern propaganda. While living in the south it is not at all hard to make the connection of ignorance and lack of overall intellect when you see it hanging so frequently in the back window of a truck with full body cancer and jacked up 10+ inches over stock, but I know some of the most intelligent people I have met who just happened to be southern also take pride in that flag almost as much as they take pride in the American flag.

When someone comes out claiming it is insane for a symbol of racism to still be in use shows a lacking understanding of the culture from which it comes from. A thousand times over the battle flag represents rebellion more than it represents the racism that people have incorrectly attributed to it.

One last thought.. If you lived as a Jew in WWII Germany would you not be pissed every time you saw the SS flag? How would you feel if your government told you that symbols of the Jewish faith such as the star of David were outlawed, Would it not piss you off?

Honestly it is silly to get worked up over a decoration and applying a connotation to it that is not there. And really are there not more pressing matters to attend to in this world right now than a flag that has been in use for roughly 200 years?

 

[imperialreign]

Thank you. QFT.

As for the flag, it represents regional pride, heritage and a long standing history of rebellion. Applying the racist connotation was little more than northern propaganda. While living in the south it is not at all hard to make the connection of ignorance and lack of overall intellect when you see it hanging so frequently in the back window of a truck with full body cancer and jacked up 10+ inches over stock, but I know some of the most intelligent people I have met who just happened to be southern also take pride in that flag almost as much as they take pride in the American flag.

When someone comes out claiming it is insane for a symbol of racism to still be in use shows a lacking understanding of the culture from which it comes from. A thousand times over the battle flag represents rebellion more than it represents the racism that people have incorrectly attributed to it.

One last thought.. If you lived as a Jew in WWII Germany would you not be pissed every time you saw the SS flag? How would you feel if your government told you that symbols of the Jewish faith such as the star of David were outlawed, Would it not piss you off?

Honestly it is silly to get worked up over a decoration and applying a connotation to it that is not there. And really are there not more pressing matters to attend to in this world right now than a flag that has been in use for roughly 200 years?

100% agreed.

 

[Easton Dark]

They're proud to be from the South, and that IS the Southern flag, even if it has no political meaning anymore.

Like Native Americans hold on to things to remind themselves of their heritage, even without their ancestral lands. Just less........ poetic, the way you describe the people displaying the flags.

I'm German and the Nazi flag was at one point the flag of our nation. Does that mean that we should still use it? My point here I guess is that I find the Confederate flag something that's pretty damn offensive. I mean how many people do you see rocking the Prussian flag? Not too many because they kinda lost the war.

I dunno. Do you share the Nazi ideals?

No?

Well then don't use the flag. Just don't assume someone wants to exterminate a race of people if they choose to fly their flag. Maybe they're proud of their families military heritage or something; accomplished Nazi soldier?

It's the reasons for using the flag that matter.

 

[ungothicdove]

Being from a small town on the Northern tip of Minnesota, I've never understood the fascination with wanting to be a Southern redneck by the kids back home.

 

[Mumorpuger]

You do realize the former flag was the First National Confederate flag, right? While the latter is the BAttle Flag which is a variant of the Second National Confederate flag. Both are representative of the Confederated States . . . it's simply that the latter was never used in any formal means to represent the Confederacy. That doesn't make it any less of a symbol of the south. It informally represented the CSA when the troops went to battle . . . I'd say that's enough of an association.



This isn't about racism, nor hate - it's about a part of America's past that a large region continue to honor and remember as that of heritage and a dedication to protect one's own way of life. To be willing to stand up for your own beliefs and what you hold dear whether or not it's want the majority want you to do and/or believe. It's for defending one's way of life from being forced to live how others wish you to. It's a symbol of the true American spirit, the same spirit that founded this great nation in the face of unmeasurable adversities.

People will only see what they want to associate with any symbol. You see racism and hatred . . . I see spirit and heritage.

Firstly, the Second Flag of the Confederacy was created after the battle flag was in existence, and incorporated it into its design.

The United States of America, where I live, has many reminders of spirit and heritage. I choose not to stand by one that is directly correlated to the notion preserving a way of life that, as a main factor (but not sole), involved the oppression of others.

 

[viranimus]

Oddly, this thread reminded me of this.