Consenting to Sex

[Raikov]

I wonder where they found the guys they asked in that survey... "nearly half of young men still think sex with women too drunk to know what is going on is not rape".

That means that between me and 4 of my good friends, 2 think this is OK. I guess I know which 2 too, since only me and one other of those friends even go to clubs, where you can find these drunk women.

I guess that means I'm statistically guilty of this. I have to be, considering that 1 of those 4 friends don't ever drink, 2 has a stable relationship, and the last one can't possibly afford to go clubbing, and only drinks wine.

Nice survey guys. In other news, did you know that in a recent survey (done by me with male demographic aged 22 to 26) 40% has a driving licence, 100% is unemployed and 20% is church-going Christians? Also, 20% is still virgins.

Yeah.

 

[Layz92]

If the person you are having sex with is someone you know like a girlfriend and you know her well enough to gauge her normal feelings then I have no problem with the sex. If she is passed out... c'mon have some dignity. If it is just some casual one night stand then yeah I would give it a miss if she is drunk, let alone passed out. TBH drunk women arn't that great in the sack anyway in my experience (with girlfriends). I get slightly pissed off when stuff like this comes out. Admittedly the cross section was probably the local chav/chava/scally population but it still reflects badly upon the decent majority in my demographic. Who is dumb enough to think that isn't rape. That is more just dumbassery than really thinking it is alright.

 

[Wutaiflea]

This is all actually really interesting- great responses. There seems to be a lot of "it's always going to be partially the fault of the victim if they allow themselves to get so drunk" amongst the opinions.

Is that really the case?

If you go out perhaps with some work/school friends, maybe end up out longer than you thought, and more drunk than you thought, do you consider yourself lucky to make it home okay? Do you feel you're taking a calculated risk?

 

[Katherine Kerensky]

-All Hail Britannia Snip-

You see, this is particularly interesting to me.

I'm wondering why you're assuming that a guy would need to have an erection to be raped or sexually abused?
In a number of countries, any form of unsolicited penetration is considered rape. In the UK, oral rape is also considered a crime in its own right. Both of these offences wouldn't require an erection.

It's also interesting that you say "nothing bad can happen to me" if you're not drunk. Do you think maybe a woman who does get drunk is inviting trouble?

...
Why would the guy need an erection to get raped?
I was pointing out that it would be rather difficult to have sex if the man is completely drunk, nevermind the partner. I never said he was the one getting raped, or even if it was a situation involving rape at all.
And perhaps I do think that other women who get drunk to the point of senselessness are inviting trouble.
What of it? They are the ones taking the risks, not me. I'm the one sitting in the corner, watching for trouble.

 

[lazy_eight]

...like I stated above you'd have to be a really desperate bastard to do someone clearly drunk or incapacitated (and it's basically borderline rape) but it's also the drunk's fault for being a bloody idiot and getting themselves pissed in the first place.

Excuse me, "basically borderline?" What's borderline about having sex with someone who is clearly confused or unconscious? It may be irresponsible to get that drunk, but that does NOT make it "the drunk's fault" that he or (let's face it, we really mean) she got raped. That's like saying it's partly your fault you got mugged because you shouldn't have been in that part of town late at night--no, you shouldn't have been there, but you didn't mug yourself. Any rape, including the rape of someone whose judgement is impaired, is the fault of the rapist, plain & simple. Some people have a messed-up sense of blame distribution.

But I agree on one point--how could someone be so desperate to rape a drunk person? People are so much more attractive when they can move & figure out what's going on around them.

 

[Kermi]

If a woman cannot clearly, and willingly engage in sex, I would not proceed. Being intoxicated or stoned is fine, I've had some great drunken/stoned sex, but that was with my girlfriend, whom I had already had consensual sex with previously. But if I was having a one off and she was passed out, or not able to actively participate, I wouldn't go through with it.

However, there's a difference between being raped and making a poor decision. If you're a little bit intoxicated and willingly engage in sex - then feel bad about it the next day and call it rape, that's really unfair to your partner.
Of course I'd never find myself in that situation because I'm not a one-nighter kind of guy.

 

[Raikov]

The law in the UK is quite clear - consent can be withdrawn at any time, including during - and if that happens it is rape. 46% of the surveyed men are wrong and need to figure that out in a hurry.

Thee law requires a "reasonable" belief of consent. If the guy is sober but the girl is loaded then there is an argument that he does not have a reasonable belief. If both are drunk that argument becomes a little more difficult. In both cases it is down to what the jury would consider a reasonable belief.

In terms of a man being drunk and the woman raping him. Well, sadly, in the UK this does not lawfully constitute rape. Something that I don't agree with. The reasonable belief doctrine still applies.

I've got a question about this. If consent is withdraws during sex, and the guy stops, is it still rape?

 

[Wutaiflea]

-All Hail Britannia Snip-

...
Why would the guy need an erection to get raped?
I was pointing out that it would be rather difficult to have sex if the man is completely drunk, nevermind the partner. I never said he was the one getting raped, or even if it was a situation involving rape at all.
And perhaps I do think that other women who get drunk to the point of senselessness are inviting trouble.
What of it? They are the ones taking the risks, not me. I'm the one sitting in the corner, watching for trouble.[/quote]

I'm not trying to be snippy with you. I just found what you said particularly interesting, because I'm trying to get a sense of what people's preconceptions are.

Your first comment kind of implied that a drunk guy who may be suffering from Brewer's Droop, isn't in much of a position be involved in anything sexual. That's not strictly true- it was interesting to me though that this was your first thought.

I'm also not making any judgements about how you feel about other women getting drunk- you're completely entitled to that opinion. I was wondering though, what factors have contributed to that idea?

I'm genuinely interested, and not being a dick- honestly.

 

[lolmynamewastaken]

my first time i was too drunk to actually know what was happening... i think, i unno, i might have been up for it at the time, i was just weirded out in the morning because i had no idea what had happened...

i tend to be the kind of person that will help a drunk woman figure out where her own bed is, and let her get in to it on her own, i think maybe if that maybe if she's up for it at the time when she's that drunk then it would be hard for it to actually be rape though, just regretable in the morning for her.

 

[Wutaiflea]

The law in the UK is quite clear - consent can be withdrawn at any time, including during - and if that happens it is rape.

I've got a question about this. If consent is withdraws during sex, and the guy stops, is it still rape?

It's generally considered that if the guy stopped once consent is withdrawn, it is not legally considered rape.

I would sympathise with any man who did this and then was accused of rape.

 

[ComicsAreWeird]

It´s wrong to take advantage of someone who´s drunk, sure...BUT whoever got drunk certainly is responsible to a degree. It´s CLEARLY not right but i dont think it should be considered rape.

 

[the-kitchen-slayer]

~chuckles~ such varied, but similar comments. And all about booze.

Alright, my two, worthless, cents:

One: If your drinking, and something happens, hey, look, you two got yourselves in a position to do said thing. I wouldn't do it personally, seeing as i'd rather be able to stay awake and/or feel the whole event, but that's me. But it's happened in the past with me, at least with tipsiness involved. But even then, fully concentual. We had both done it before, we figured it would be happening even before we started drinking. Tada.

So, to finish that statment: If alcohol's involved BEFORE we decided to do it, 95% of the time I won't do anything. The one occasion it did was after a puking incident, not going into details. Needless to say, we were sober at that point.

The second point: If they say no, I stop. Not neccisarily a gentleman, but a person who respects what others want. Don't mind me fooling around above the waist? no problem. nothing below? Okay, I won't go there. Nuff said.

So, to finish this all off: Alcohol and sex, it happens, the parties involved only have themselves to blame for saying yes while blitzed out of their minds. And if there isn't, well, lets face it, it's rape/molestation if they say no. I say Rape/Molestation because, let's face it, no penetration, different crime.

 

[Carbonic Penguin]

The law in the UK is quite clear - consent can be withdrawn at any time, including during - and if that happens it is rape. 46% of the surveyed men are wrong and need to figure that out in a hurry.

Thee law requires a "reasonable" belief of consent. If the guy is sober but the girl is loaded then there is an argument that he does not have a reasonable belief. If both are drunk that argument becomes a little more difficult. In both cases it is down to what the jury would consider a reasonable belief.

In terms of a man being drunk and the woman raping him. Well, sadly, in the UK this does not lawfully constitute rape. Something that I don't agree with. The reasonable belief doctrine still applies.

I've got a question about this. If consent is withdraws during sex, and the guy stops, is it still rape?

My girlfriend had a rape talk from an ex-police officer, who said that it constitutes as rape even if she changes her mind afterwards aswell! And that any form of penetration can also be considered rape... think it's funny to pick her nose for her? It could be rape! However, the laws are probably different in Australia, more strict, you know... (Also, she had a mandatory rape talk, with her friends, not related to me, at all, cos I don't rape people, no... >.>)

 

[captaincabbage]

Technically speaking (and we all know how I love to speak technically), when you want it and the other person doesn't want it.

In any instance I reckon it's unacceptable when you continue to advance and the other person tries to refuse.

 

[Tipsy Giant]

Personally, i think they should give around consent forms, in which both parties have to mutually consent with video evidence to show the absence of duress, with a third party who is not affiliated with either to back that up.

And lets not be gender biased here shall we

You old romantic!

 

[Stasisesque]

My girlfriend had a rape talk from an ex-police officer, who said that it constitutes as rape even if she changes her mind afterwards aswell! And that any form of penetration can also be considered rape... think it's funny to pick her nose for her? It could be rape! However, the laws are probably different in Australia, more strict, you know... (Also, she had a mandatory rape talk, with her friends, not related to me, at all, cos I don't rape people, no... >.>)

I very much hope you're joking with the penetration comment. Penetration WITH any object into any orifice conducted in a sexual fashion is considered either rape or sexual battery, that means digital (fingers) insertion is ALSO rape/sexual battery. It doesn't have to be a penis.

This also rather doesn't exclude men who are unable to maintain an erection - if they still have fingers/tongues/opposable thumbs, they can commit rape.

 

[theevilsanta]

I
I think Sky News kind is kind of misrepresenting this study though. For example, one quote is:

"46% of men aged 18 to 25 also do not consider it rape if the woman changes her mind during sex"

If I start having sex with someone consensually and halfway through she wants to stop, of course I'll stop immediately. But I wouldn't call that rape. The article is unclear.
.

The law in the UK is quite clear - consent can be withdrawn at any time, including during - and if that happens it is rape. 46% of the surveyed men are wrong and need to figure that out in a hurry.

That doesn't make any sense. So a man can be having consensual sex with his wife and if the wife says, "stop", and he stops immediately, it still constitutes rape? Sounds like a good way to get out of a prenuptial agreement, or get your husband in jail. Am I reading you right?

 

[Tipsy Giant]

I've drunkenly slept with people I otherwise wouldn't want to, it's not rape if you're stupid enough to get that drunk and make that decision. Granted they were likely equally as drunk, but even if they were sober it's not their fault.

You can't blame other people for you being an eejit.

Same here, it is very hard to have a one night stand that doesn't start with you getting drunk with your mates while she's probably doing the same, if you want to make sure you don't do something you'll regret, don't drink, it's that simple

 

[silasbufu]

So you go to a party. You see this girl, she's hot, dressed really sexy, but she's sober, just got there.
After a few hours you're both drunk (or just her). So would it be morally wrong to have sex with her ? (and this isn't about having sex with strangers at a party, stay on topic). She went there totally sober, yet dressed really provocative and started drinking with you. This happens alot btw.
So what does the man do wrong there, seeing that sex is probably what she came for in the first place?
Same question could apply for women (except maybe dressing sexy. There's a boundary for men at doing so).

I don't know what to say about the "changing her mind" thing during sex.
I guess it would be pretty hard to stop once you started, but yeah I see how it could be seen as rape.

 

[SmokingMirrors]

There's few things I neccesarily find unattractive but alcohol would definitely be one of them, but allow me to clarify; While i'd not deny anyone the right to drink even if they were to be in my presence while doing so its unlikely that i'd even consider sexual intercourse with them at that point because of my own aversion towards the particular substance in question.

However, even if that weren't to be the case i'd still find it a vile thing to do. If the individual is no longer aware of their surroundings and thus has become unable to deny and/or resist the others advance then its an abuse of trust which is something I despise greatly.