controversy over used games

[sheic99]

A one time use type deal? Not really.. a game isn't the same as a used movie ticket, it's the same as purchasing a second hand DVD, a book or a CD.

I don't really agree with those either. I simply don't see why some 2-bit middleman should be making cash out of somebody ELSE'S hard work, because too many people are too cheap to pay full price.

While I know that there are some people that CAN'T pay full price, and I certainly don't believe that original distributors are using the best model, that doesn't invalidate the points.

NOBODY'S hands are clean here - don't blame everything on the distributors.

Uh no.

The game disc is a physical product. When you buy a ticket to a movie, you are renting a seat for that one showing. That same seat will be re-rented over and over again. When you buy a game disc it works more like a music CD or movie DVD in that it can be played as many times as you want and it incurs no extra cost for the publisher or the consumer.

In other words, movie ticket = service, CD/DVD/Video Game = physical product.

As above. The 'physical product' is largely irrelevant. If I wrote it over with junk data, you'd be annoyed, right? Because it's the EXPERIENCE, the game / music that you're interested in.

If you buy something second hand, the original maker gets nothing, and some twit in the middle gets cash for doing almost nothing. This encourages the artist / creator to either:
a) stop making stuff; or
b) charge higher prices for it, so they can make decent money off the original sales.
c) lower price of new games to compete with the lower cost of used games.

I'm not going to pretend that original distributors are perfect, or that their sales model couldn't be improved... but all second hand buyers seem totally convinced that they're completely guilt free, and that it's the evil corporations dun-dun-dun that are totally at fault.

Sorry. Ain't true. Vicious circle and all that.

And yes, before you ask, I only purchase new. My library is just under 1000 books now, and I've got around 400 CD's, 250 DVD's and 100 games. I believe that the artists should get paid for their effort, and I'm prepared to save up to buy the things I want.

Fixed
The problem with publishers is that they believe they are exempt to a diminishing price model, unlike other media. For example, Modern Warfare 2 is still being charged at $60 [http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=74392] in some shops. At a year later, there is no excuse to keep games at their original launch price.

 

[Sinspiration]

Considering the Stores don't get the games supplied to them for free, the companies cant complain, they make the offer, the store (or indeed overall company like GAME) purchases it then sells it to the customer, right?

In some way you can consider the Stores a 'customer' and all that's really happening is trading between many customers. Game companies should be glad that the stores are profiting. The more stores there are, the more copies may be bought to spread amongst those stores and sell amongst the people to make more profit.

The larger the store chains get, the bigger the profit becomes in the end. At least that's how I look at it.

Edit: Besides, if we cant get things second hand and there's demand for old things that some companies would never produce again, then it would all be reduced to selling on eBay and such. All they'd be doing is changing where second hand games get sold.

 

[Criquefreak]

Equating used game sales to piracy. I recall a number of software agreements that stated something along the lines of 'must be transfered in whole'. If someone was selling copies of the game, then it would be piracy, but the fact is that a wholly transfered game has already been purchased and is still only in use by one person/household/etc.

Next someone'll seriously suggest that giving a game as a gift counts as piracy because the person who paid for it isn't the one in possession of it, that the recipient never paid for it and doesn't deserve to have it.

Not receiving the money from the resale might feel like a loss from a bizarre perspective, but it's not like they're recouping losses, they're just getting the money from the original sale and the reseller is trading something they no longer feel valuable enough to keep for what is likely less than they originally paid. Certain exceptions like older, rare games being auctioned for more than 100% original price obviously hurt, except to say that had the company decided to remake and re-release the game (probably via download to one of the systems today), they clearly could have made a profit even this far down the line.

It's not like digital storage space is hard to get, that direct download sales aren't a viable market for old and new games alike, this is just the nonsense of wanting to profit off other people's actions rather than working to usurp the second-hand business model by continuing or renewing production and distribution or just selling more units at lower prices and over a longer term.

 

[DMonkey]

Oh screw those greedy ass game companies. It is nothing like piracy, or theft. I love my ps2, and I am saving up for the 3 (again), but this whole ordeal makes me want to quit this hobby all together, and spend that money on fishing equipment. Every other week its something new in the gaming industry, and its fan base that just makes it all seem like products for children, by children, and my own hard earned cash helps fund the whining, and crying on all sides, while the quality of games go down.

 

[Cynical skeptic]

... wow. The amount of confusion in this could kill something. Braincells seem to be what they're killing near me.

this isn't about you buying used copies of games that you can't buy new copies of. This is about gamestop pricing used copies as if they're in competition with new copies.

This concept is, essentially, paying a bum to fight himself to the death. Unless hes stupid and greedy, he'll almost instantly realize thats a bad deal, no matter how much you offer.

 

[Lawyer105]

That's like saying I sold you a hamburger but instead of the burger there was a giant turd. It wasn't what you paid for. You're still getting the experience of eating a burger, its just a burger made of literal shit now. Technically in your scenario you're still getting the experience of playing a game, its just a game made of a bunch of garbled garbage.

And yes, please jump to the defense of the soulless corporate publishers who care nothing about the people who buy their products and in many cases don't even care about the quality of the product they produce. I personally can't wait till the publishes completely kill the used games industry and start pumping out more shit like Kane and Lynch, Madden 11 and Final Fantasy 13 safe in the knowledge that if we want to even TRY the game we have to buy it, at full price, and can only sell it on the black market assuming they don't put in some 1 use software code to unlock the game within a single console. Then when the gaming industry collapses in on itself like it did in the 80s because no one is buying the garbage they keep pumping out, we can watch the cycle start all over.

1) Your example is uncomparable. The only reason I used the section quoted was in response to somebody that said purchasing a game was all about owning the physical media. My example demonstrated this fact quite nicely. A point that, in your haste to defend your piracy/cheapass-ness you seem to have completely neglected.

2) I am not defending the corporations. They're just as guilty of causing this problem as anybody else. And that's the point everybody seems to be missing. They are AS guilty. They are not the ONLY guilty parties here.

3) If you're not buying new (or otherwise supporting the developers - e.g. purchasing DLC), you have no right to accuse them of making rubbish. You haven't contributed any resources to their development process, so you can hardly complain about the results of that process.

Pull your head out of your ass and accept that the problem is bigger than the 'soulless corporations'! From here, it sure looks like you're a born-again pirate desperately trying to defend a position you KNOW is flawed.

 

[Asuka Soryu]

So it's wrong for a store that buys a game from a player, to try and make a profit off it, that the game designers won't see? I sale my games when I need some spare-cash and it gives other people games to buy that were either out of sale or to high a price.

So someone buys a game used, that money helps the place they bought it from. If they couldn't get it at a lower price and didn't have the money to throw on something like a pass-time that costs 60$ a piece, for a 300$ console, then they're not gone to buy the game and no one sees a profit.

My friend let me borrow Sonic Unleashed from him, by some peoples logic, I just stole from the Game Designers. Well guess what? F*** you! I played that game, and to be honest... I wouldn't have bought this game, even if it was used.

And I guess I stole my DS, PS3 and 360 since I got them used, since I can't afford to spend 300-400$ in one go, without feeling the pain, just for a console to play 60$ games.

Hell, some games never lower in price no matter how old they get. I've seen Twilight Princess sale for the same price when it was brand new.

I'm not gone to toss 50-60$ for a game I'm not even guaranteed I'll like. If it wasn't for used items, I wouldn't have a Game Cube or N64. ~.~

Nor a DS, PS3 or 360. Mind you, I did get my first two DS's new, but they broke. And I didn't feel like spending 170$ for a console I didn't need that much, when it was 60$ for a modely they don't even sale anymore.

So no, I never feel guilty about buying used. Unlike poor Yahtzee who had to pay 100$ for a game that now sales for 20$ un-used. And Alan Wake's 80$ here, I'm not tossing 80$ on a game, that I could get more fun from playing a 30$ game.

 

[Deacon Cole]

Maybe, eventually people will get fed up with the special treatment the software industry expects.

I am annoyed that VC games are tied to my Wii. A Wii game disc will work on any Wii so if your Wii breaks down your games still have value. You can buy another Wii and they will work fine. VC titles are gone if the Wii breaks down and the transfer process is ridiculous (send both consoles to Nintendo).

Anyway, yeah, things like this are just building up and people will eventually get fed up.

Ah, digital media, such as Virtual Console downloads, iTunes and the like are a different ball of wax from physical media such as CD's, DVD's and BetaMax tapes. That's probably worth it's own thread and it probably already has several.

The sad thing about the "special treatment" is that everyone tries to get special treatment, especially in business. This is why the tax laws are such a confounded mess. Instead of having a simple percentage based on income, there are exceptions and special credits and such. The software industry is not unique in this regard.

My main beef is that the software industry is going about it all wrong. Any time you sell a physical product, it is likely to create a secondary market. Instead of trying to make the secondary market illegal, they should get in on that action. Try to make it illegal or otherwise a hassle, then people will be afraid to buy games in the first place.

So it's like I said. There is no controversy. We're just dealing with a bunch of poor businessmen who are grousing about the secondary market when they have no right to do so. Instead of staying focused on the primary market and using that properly, they're trying to kill the golden goose, so to speak.

Maybe I'm a bitter old man, but I hope they succeed and they market bottoms out so then they'll all be working at burger King wonder what happened.

 

[AcacianLeaves]

When you buy a game used, you are not supporting the video game industry. It's as simple as that. You are supporting a video game retailer. Developers, artists, writers, publishers, testers, and programmers never see a dime of the money you spend when you buy used.

If you're okay with that then that's your thing but don't fool yourself into thinking that you're helping the industry.

 

[Ironic Pirate]

Well... the whole used car analogy is completely flawed anyway. You're not comparing two similar goods.

A car is an ITEM. With rare exceptions, the car is never used for itself, it's simply used as a mode of transport from A to B. When you buy a used car, the car has been damaged by wear and tear, and is not the same product as was purchased from the manufacturer.

The same is not true for a game. A game is an EXPERIENCE. Nobody (again with rare exceptions) buys a game to have the game! They buy the game to PLAY it - to experience the game the developers have created. Even if the manual is missing, and the disk is a bit scratched up, the experience is still the same.

It would be more accurate to compare a game to a movie or concert. If I buy a movie ticket, I'm purchasing the experience of watching that moving in the cinema. If I buy a concert ticket, same deal.

Buying a used game, is effectively the same as purchasing somebody's used movie ticket or concert ticket, and using it to get into the performance (sure, you wouldn't ACTUALLY be able to get away with it, but the concept is the same).




By purchasing the used game, you get the same EXPERIENCE as any new purchaser, but the developer doesn't get any additional remuneration. I wouldn't go so far as to call buying used games 'theft' - but purchasers of used games are at least partially guilty of creating the situation the games industry is in today.

Or is it possibly the publishers that expect us to pay 60 dollars for a brand new game? Because I'll pay forty dollars, but not sixty. That is fucking ridiculous, and if they want to charge that much they don't need my money.


Especially not for a six hour game with shitty multiplayer. I am not paying ten dollars for an hour of entertainment. Never.

 

[AcacianLeaves]

The customer might as well be pirating the game.

BS. You cannot equate buying a car used to grand theft auto just like you can't equate buying used games to theft. How much it costs to make a product is irrelevant.

As far as the developer is concerned, they lose an equal amount of money on piracy as they do on the used games market. Whether you pirate the game or buy it used, you are not paying them to use their product. Legal issues aside, from the standpoint of a developer pirates and pawn shops are functionally equivalent in harming their profits.

 

[Furious Styles]

That's because the used cd and book markets aren't very large. Especially not for books, most people would rather buy a new book than an old one that's most likely damaged. There hasn't been much of a reason to buy new instead of used until recently though (project 10 dollar and whatnot)

Are you kidding me? The book market is huge, arguably bigger than games. Well, maybe not, but it's still massive and that market is causing far more damage to retailers and publishers. I know of at least five bookshops put out if business where I live due in large part to second hand online sales. I've bought absolutely loads of second hand books myself.

No, pirating is uploading a copy of a game online and letting people download it for free, which as I've said is basically the same as buying used as far as the publisher is concerned if not actually less bad because pirates aren't paying customers for the most part while used game buyers are paying customers that could be contributing to the profits of the publishers but aren't

Piracy can be both what you said and what I said, I've been down a fair few markets where people have been selling multiple copies out of blank boxes with the title written on in permanent marker. Maybe its just a british thing. Pirating is far, far worse because from the one copy they "lose" multiple copies whereas with second hand sales each copy only relates to one "lost" copy. besides, this is a two way deal. The customer matters too, without us, they'd have nothing and this gives them the ability to really put our nuts in a vice.

It might be but it's also a game maker's right to attempt to receive compensation for his work, be it simply by hoping that people buy it new it or doing stuff like project ten dollar.

As far as I'm aware, having someone buy a copy of said game is compensation enough. I mean, even with the used game market MW2 sold 20 million copies worldwide by June 15th! Are you honestly telling me reselling MW2 means they don't get their fair deal?
Mass effect 2 sold 1.6 million copies
Uncharted 3.5 million
San Andreas 17 million
Halo 3 8 million

Games are clearly doing fine, in spite of the second hand market and any attempt to quash it is pure greed.

Again, it's not unreasonable to ask for you to pay them instead of just gamestop that had absolutely nothing to do in the creation in the game.

No, but it is unreasonable to prohibit someone from selling something they bought, totally unreasonable.

Personally I've never used a second hand game store, I only ever buy from individuals over the web and only ever sell mine as an individual direct to other individuals. Am I really such a problem? The more I think about it the more I see wrong with used game stores, but someone like me really isn't a problem and shouldn't be legally prohibited.

 

[AcacianLeaves]

]Or is it possibly the publishers that expect us to pay 60 dollars for a brand new game? Because I'll pay forty dollars, but not sixty. That is fucking ridiculous, and if they want to charge that much they don't need my money.


Especially not for a six hour game with shitty multiplayer. I am not paying ten dollars for an hour of entertainment. Never.

You don't go to the movies very often, do you? Ignoring for a moment that a 6 hour game for $60 is pretty rare, you'd be hard-pressed to find many ways to get a full hour of entertainment for less than $10 anywhere.

Besides, what's wrong with renting? I go to a red box and pick up a game and pay $2 for every 24 hours of entertainment.

And since when did $50-$60 become such a huge price problem? Games have cost that much since SNES days.

 

[Sebenko]

When you buy a game used, you are not supporting the video game industry. It's as simple as that.

Meh. Seem to me that it's an industry full of dicks who always seem to have some reason to complain.

 

[AcacianLeaves]

When you buy a game used, you are not supporting the video game industry. It's as simple as that.

Meh. Seem to me that it's an industry full of dicks.

Because they want to make money for the product that they spent 5 years working 70 hour weeks for?

 

[Sebenko]

When you buy a game used, you are not supporting the video game industry. It's as simple as that.

Meh. Seem to me that it's an industry full of dicks.

Because they want to make money for the product that they spent 5 years working 70 hour weeks for?

No, because they keep coming up with bullshit reasons for us to pay more. DLC, "Online passes", I hate all of it. And DRM. Why should I buy a game at all if it's just going to fuck me over with awkward DRM?

 

[kikon9]

It doesn't make sense that publishers should be so angry. Seeing as for a used game to even exist somebody needs to buy the game new first anyway.

 

[icame]

When you look at it from the perspective that the makers see no money for the bought product, yes the person who bought might of well as pirated it.