Convicted rapist wins his case to be moved into a womens prison.

[CrystalShadow]

Ugh. I really can't make up my mind about this case.
I don't believe in a notion of justice based on Vengeance.

And if this is a serious problem, being in prison isn't an excuse to have all your rights taken from you...

On the other hand, letting a known rapist in amongst female prisoners sounds like a recipe for trouble...

I find the entire concpet of changing ones gender to be seriously flawed. For a start its superficial and having the desire to mutilate ones genitals and take maunfactured steroids does not entile one to have special treatment, especially when its on somebody elses money. Serious why sould the taxpayer front a convicted killers psycological issues. If he was not in jail he probably couldnt afford the surgery he requires and even then he wouldnt get any recognition for it. Gender is decided at birth, its not something you get a vote on , its one of the things in life you have to just deal with.

If I remember correctly in Psychology you are told that it isn't the gender of someone that is decided at birth it is the Sex.

One is more sociological than the other (as in gender roles). All over the world different countries have very different gender roles.

But generally these topics devolve into bashing folks who are sexually confused so I'll leave it at that.

You wont find any bashing here with me. So you think if a boy is never told he is a boy and is dressed in pink and brought up as a girl , when he comes of age to realise what has been done to him and refuses to change he has a right to be reclassified as a girl ad recieve a sex change? Or is he (and i use this term in a medical sense not a bashing sense) "sick" and to be prescribed therapy to return him to his true gender?

By the way you said you were told n psycology, do you agree with it? Allowing people to decide what gender they are seems counter-intuitive to most people, in class do you accept what is said?

Try reversing your own example and see if it still makes any sense.
(Basically, if you raise a boy to be a girl, does it still sound reasonable to continue to insist they are a girl when they themselves are quite certain they are a boy?)

You know, perhaps I'm a little old fashioned with this viewpoint. When treating an alcoholic, they don't cure him by giving him alcohol. You don't cure a drug abuser by giving them the drug they want. Thus why should we chop off a guys dong just because he wants to be a woman? Surely the easier option is to not give them what they THINK they want and just give them therapy like everyone else.

Do you know why sex change operations are done? Because years of practical experience show it to be a case where trying to treat it as if it were a mental disorder doesn't work.
It's far easier, and more effective to change the body to match the mind, than it is to try and convince the person to accept the body they were born with.

So, as ironic as it seems, Surgery is the easier option. (unless you consider keeping someone in therapy for the rest of their lives an 'easy' option. Do you know how expensive a therapist is? - And even then, the chances of actually 'curing' anything that way are remote.)

I point out tht lycanthropy and Gender Identity Disorder are both classed as ailments by the American board of Psych, but then so was being gay up until a point. Now GID isnt your average transgender but one who suffers from dyspohria at the same time causing them distress. Point is in some areas it is still classified as an illness, (this by the way is extremely controversial among the psychiatrists) and can be considered treatable

That Transsexualism is classified as a mental disorder is a bit of a catch 22. It cannot be medically treated unless it is considered an illness of some sort, but considering it an illness makes it easier to stigmatize people because of it.
And, see my point above. It's easier to treat the physical aspect, and get a positive result, than it is to get any meaningful benefit from a psychological treatment of it.

This is the primary reason why it isn't considered cosmetic surgery too. Physical modification is the only known treatment with any kind of success rate. And that's not for lack of trying, because it's an approach that (as plenty of comments in this thread still demonstrate) is not one that was widely thought of as a good idea in the past.
But, 50-60 years of evidence show there are simply no alternative treatment methods that actually work.

And why does anyone else even care? Because somehow a lot of people have some kind of weird reaction to it. (men especially.)
Is a Transsexual woman meaningfully different from a real one? Well, there's only one area where I can really think of that being the case, but it's not exclusive to transsexuals, it's just pretty much a certainty when dealing with one...

Wtf? Lock him up so he can not get the operation. You are in prison as punishment. You can not leave to get a loan or get the surgery. If you can leave any time you want then wtfs the point!
Anyway the nearest prison here has 2 post ops... They are very sought after property. XD
Legally speaking, they were born a man so are classified as modified males thus are in a male prison.
Chopping off your shit does not make you a woman, it just makes you a mutilated male.

Sorry? But legal situations are quite variable from country to country.

This story is English, and I happen to know quite a lot about this issue because it affects me personally.

English law (which incedentally, is weaker than some laws in Neighbouring European countries), views a post-op transsexual as being legally equivalent to the chosen gender in all but a handful of situations. (Some of the few exceptions have to do with laws specifically relating to physical issues, like child-birth, and sporting competitions where there might otherwise be an obvious performance difference.)

You can't make a blanket statement about what a Transsexual is unless you can make a definite statement about what it means to be male or female.
And trust me, you can't.

You may think you can, but you're wrong.
Every conceivable definition, right down to basic genetics (such as the presence or absense of a Y chromosome.) has viable counter-arguments.
To be blunt, Deviding the whole population strictly into male and female is a gross oversimplification of reality.
Enough borderline cases of various types exist to show that nature simply isn't that neat, and it's only our own incessant need to try and classify everything into neat categories that causes us to ignore this fact.

That, and it's so deeply ingrained in our biological reactions, that the very first judgement you make about any person you meet is wether they are male or female.

Those of you that feel like that can argue as loudly as you like that a Male to female Transsexual is actually still a man,

And I can shout just as loudly that your opinion is nonsense, (and hit you over the head with reams of medical studies to boot.)

In the end though, arguing won't get me anywhere with people so close-minded and rigid about such things.

And as for the person in prison? Meh. They're in very serious trouble regardless of which prison system they end up in.

 

[DeathsAmbassador]

Why would they ever let him spend tax payers money on a sex change operation, that just sounds wrong. I think it's amazing at how much assistance criminals get that regular people who haven't committed any crimes don't, it's a flawed system that should be changed (I probably shouldn't be talking as I don't know very much about it). That said though I think that if he get's the sex change operation (even if he shouldn't be allowed to) then he should be allowed to go to a female prison. But I honestly have a hard time having any compassion for people who have done things that horrific, and think that many of them deserve no rights whatsoever, but who knows, I could be wrong.

 

[bjj hero]

As for using tax payer money, I agree fully that he should of been allowed to. To do otherwise would mean that people who couldn't afford to be represented will not be given a chance to be represented and that sets a bad precedent: That only those the rich deserve to have their cases heard in court. The rich already have a upper hand as it is when it comes to legal matters, lets not completely undermine the poor folks ability to get heard.

I'm all for him getting legal aid if he was challenging his conviction, its important that justice is seen to be done. Hes asking for a cosmetic procedure. There are plenty of gender charities who would have funded his case instead of my taxes. Part of being in prison is that your rights are limited. The right of assembly and to procreate as desired spring to mind.

 

[DoW Lowen]

Don't worry about it, the guys i going to get the shit kicked out of him in prison. By chicks. If prisoners hate something, the thing they hate more than anything is pedophiles and rapist.

 

[Woodsey]

It's pathetic, he's still a man - just because you want to dress up as a woman and pretend you're one doesn't make you one - even if you get tit implants and have your dick chopped off. Why should rapists and killers have human rights? Am I the only one who thinks you should lose those when you're scum?

Because at the end of the day, everyone, no matter what, is entitled to their human rights. I think what he did was disgusting, but he's still human. Dehumanising him does nothing for the rest of us, none of us will learn if we think that criminals aren't human. Thinking that people who do bad things aren't human just means that there will continue to be people who do bad things, because none of us will change, because we are "human".

And where would it stop? Who isn't human next? Christians? Muslims? Jews? Homosexuals? Anyone that is vaguely different from us would no longer be human, and I'm not sure that's a world I'd want to live in.

I think you're misunderstanding what I said (or what I meant to say - I've probably mis-written it). My point was that he/she shouldn't be moved - I realise that sexuality isn't a choice, but given that he is (in my opinion) more than a bog-standard criminal (who committed theft for instance) he doesn't deserve many of his rights.

Whether he wants a sex change so he can be can be fully realised as a woman is at this point in time, in my opinion, irrelevant. He raped a woman for christ sake! Now they're allowing him to go in a women's prison?

Why should he or anybody who dehumanises someone else then be allowed to have rights, and a choice of where they go to prison, and have an operation they WANT (it's not something that he needs, like in the case of if someone had cancer). Then £80,000 has to be paid to segregate him from the rest of the women - why not just segregate him from the men in the prison?

If your mother/daughter/sister or a close female friend was raped by this man, would you want him to be permitted to have an operation and then be sent (to some extent possibly at your expense) to a female prison?

It's not about him being different from me, or him being a transsexual (I don't care to be quite honest), but he had the chance to have this operation, then he committed one of the most hideous crimes and killed someone (by accident or not I'm not sure I'm afraid).

 

[KingPiccolOwned]

If he loses his penis, then I don't see any problem, otherwise, that's the worst judge ever.

I think that it is a bit different when they want to. The whole point is to emasculate them, but that doesn't work very well when they intend to anyway. Besides don't blame the judge, because I can guarantee you that if he didn't move the convict then the human rights groups (AKA retarded mules masquerading as humans) would raise a shitstorm about it.

 

[KingPiccolOwned]

Don't worry about it, the guys i going to get the shit kicked out of him in prison. By chicks. If prisoners hate something, the thing they hate more than anything is pedophiles and rapist.

Actually no he won't as he is being segregated from the rest of them. I thought that was understood.

 

[Jinx_Dragon]

I'm all for him getting legal aid if he was challenging his conviction, its important that justice is seen to be done. Hes asking for a cosmetic procedure. There are plenty of gender charities who would have funded his case instead of my taxes. Part of being in prison is that your rights are limited. The right of assembly and to procreate as desired spring to mind.

He was challenging his conviction though, at least the part of it that he should be denied medical treatment and housed in a facility for male offenders. Now we can argue about the medical treatment in question and if it should or should not be given out to inmates but that is a side issue to what I was trying to raise. He was challenging that the terms of his sentencing where unjustified by the law and that has to be heard by a court and a judge. To deny him, simply cause he couldn't afford it, is very dangerous a precedent.

Like wise for someone to hold the power to decide if a person has the right to be heard by a court is just as dangerous. Indeed the magna carta was forced onto just such a person, designed prevent anyone holding the power to decide what a court of law can and can not review. By this law no one could just arbitrarily deny him the rights to a hearing, and simply cause he couldn't afford to pay for it himself is not a good reason for the hearing to be denied.

Now arguments over how the judge ruled, that is different. Could get quite interesting depending on your outlook. Some don't consider it cosmetic, as there is a great deal of mental stress that comes with being 'born into the wrong gender.'

 

[Epitome]

Try reversing your own example and see if it still makes any sense.
(Basically, if you raise a boy to be a girl, does it still sound reasonable to continue to insist they are a girl when they themselves are quite certain they are a boy?)

I dont quite understand what you mean here? My hypothetical was based on being raised the opposite gender to ones sex? The opposite would have been a girl raised to be a boy and then when she figures it out wishing to remain a boy. Your example reads to me like a set of parents who really wanted a girl trying to tell their boy he is one and him not buying it. If he has a penis and thinks he is a boy then why woul we force him into dresses and such? I may just be missing your point please clarify.

That Transsexualism is classified as a mental disorder is a bit of a catch 22. It cannot be medically treated unless it is considered an illness of some sort, but considering it an illness makes it easier to stigmatize people because of it.
And, see my point above. It's easier to treat the physical aspect, and get a positive result, than it is to get any meaningful benefit from a psychological treatment of it.

This is the primary reason why it isn't considered cosmetic surgery too. Physical modification is the only known treatment with any kind of success rate. And that's not for lack of trying, because it's an approach that (as plenty of comments in this thread still demonstrate) is not one that was widely thought of as a good idea in the past.
But, 50-60 years of evidence show there are simply no alternative treatment methods that actually work.

And why does anyone else even care? Because somehow a lot of people have some kind of weird reaction to it. (men especially.)
Is a Transsexual woman meaningfully different from a real one? Well, there's only one area where I can really think of that being the case, but it's not exclusive to transsexuals, it's just pretty much a certainty when dealing with one...

But it is currently a cosmetic surgery, i mean in my country there us an issue about sending illegal immigrants home where they will face genital mutlation as per their customs. If in their culture its not considered mutilation just as sex changes are not here why dont we send them home? My point is that it may not be classified as mutilation here but it easily could have been and once was. It is a cosmetic change from either standpoint in that the primary reason we have male and females is for reproduction, ie if we were all born asexual this wouldnt be an issue. So until it can practically be achieved where you grant the other sexes reproductive capabilities to a trans person it can still be seen as a cosmetic change not in a true switch.

As to why people care it seems to me that our gender and sex are intrinsically tied for most of us, to come across somebody where there is a seperation is like when you come across an amputee and such. Part of you feels bad for them , part of you wonders why it happened and none of you wants to actully ask. (sorry for the crude comparison but i think you can understand where i am coming from). Also its unfair to tell a man he is wrong for not accepting a trans as he would a woman in all aspects. If say a man finds out his wife/gf is a trans has he not got a right to be angry. She has lied, he may have wanted children and at teh extreme he may not have wanted anything to do with a post-op dude.

English law (which incedentally, is weaker than some laws in Neighbouring European countries), views a post-op transsexual as being legally equivalent to the chosen gender in all but a handful of situations. (Some of the few exceptions have to do with laws specifically relating to physical issues, like child-birth, and sporting competitions where there might otherwise be an obvious performance difference.)

You can't make a blanket statement about what a Transsexual is unless you can make a definite statement about what it means to be male or female.
And trust me, you can't.

You may think you can, but you're wrong.
Every conceivable definition, right down to basic genetics (such as the presence or absense of a Y chromosome.) has viable counter-arguments.
To be blunt, Deviding the whole population strictly into male and female is a gross oversimplification of reality.
Enough borderline cases of various types exist to show that nature simply isn't that neat, and it's only our own incessant need to try and classify everything into neat categories that causes us to ignore this fact.

That, and it's so deeply ingrained in our biological reactions, that the very first judgement you make about any person you meet is wether they are male or female.

Those of you that feel like that can argue as loudly as you like that a Male to female Transsexual is actually still a man,

And I can shout just as loudly that your opinion is nonsense, (and hit you over the head with reams of medical studies to boot.)

In the end though, arguing won't get me anywhere with people so close-minded and rigid about such things.

And as for the person in prison? Meh. They're in very serious trouble regardless of which prison system they end up in.

I'm not going to try and shout louder than you, but i have seen medical studes that blame tran-sexuality on man made pollutants making their way into the mothers system and being mistaken for hormones by her endocrine system leading to a number of false signals being sent to the foetus during development. Similar arguements exist for homosexuality and bi-sexuality aswell but you dare mention these medical studies to tehir repective communities and you can expect a bashing for not being sensitive and calling them mutations.

There has to be a certan level of open-minded ness on both sides for the debate to continue, but what you will often get is the trans,homo,bi groups refuting your evidence with "you cant tell me how i feel is wrong" and such. Imagine for a second that i showed you definitive proof that these feelings were caused by pollutants in the system at birth would you then be willing to accept that trans,homos and bis were wrong to feel the way they do?

 

[wordsmith]

Sorry, who did he rape?

No-one. And his partner's death was by accident (Hence "Manslaughter", not "Murder"), so to everyone ready to unleash the dogs on this sadistic muderer-rapist, walk the fuck on.

Look at the facts- He was living with a male partner, goes to a place where homosexual rape is such a problem that it's become the lore of the place (lore, not law), and yet he wants to move to a female prison. He's not going there to rape anyone, he's going there to live his life as if he was a woman. He's still staying in jail, he's not going to be chasing anyone to rape them.

 

[CrystalShadow]

As for using tax payer money, I agree fully that he should of been allowed to. To do otherwise would mean that people who couldn't afford to be represented will not be given a chance to be represented and that sets a bad precedent: That only those the rich deserve to have their cases heard in court. The rich already have a upper hand as it is when it comes to legal matters, lets not completely undermine the poor folks ability to get heard.

I'm all for him getting legal aid if he was challenging his conviction, its important that justice is seen to be done. Hes asking for a cosmetic procedure. There are plenty of gender charities who would have funded his case instead of my taxes. Part of being in prison is that your rights are limited. The right of assembly and to procreate as desired spring to mind.

Ugh. It's not a cosmetic procedure. It just isn't (directly) life-threatening.

Treating a burn victim's scar tissue isn't considered a cosmetic procedure either, even though the actual procedure is the same as used in several purely cosmetic operations.

Aside from which, there are multiple issues here. The legal challenge was about being allowed to have treatment in prison, as well as being moved.

People that talk about it being 'cosmetic', really don't have much of a sense of how badly this affects people, or the reality of why this kind of treatment is used at all, when it would seem on the surface to be a mental disorder, and thus, theoretically, treatable using psychological treatment. (never mind that treatments for psychological problems are all that effective at all.)

Physical alteration is the most effective available treatment by a significant margin, for a problem that has serious consequences for a person's mental health.
Given the social stigma (as evidenced in this thread alone), the fact that surgery can have a positive outcome at all suggests the situation for those left without recourse to it must be pretty bleak.

But hey. What do you care?

 

[EchetusXe]

If he wasn't a convicted rapist then I wouldn't have a problem with him being moved to a woman's prison.

 

[DoW Lowen]

Don't worry about it, the guys i going to get the shit kicked out of him in prison. By chicks. If prisoners hate something, the thing they hate more than anything is pedophiles and rapist.

Actually no he won't as he is being segregated from the rest of them. I thought that was understood.

Didn't read that in the link that was posted. Where did you get that information?

 

[KingPiccolOwned]

Don't worry about it, the guys i going to get the shit kicked out of him in prison. By chicks. If prisoners hate something, the thing they hate more than anything is pedophiles and rapist.

Actually no he won't as he is being segregated from the rest of them. I thought that was understood.

Didn't read that in the link that was posted. Where did you get that information?

From the OP. Something about 80,000 pounds (my keyboard is American so I don't have pound symbol on it) to keep shim that convict separated from the rest of the women.

 

[Flying Dagger]

The amount of people here saying this man does not deserve human rights make me sick.
he is human, therefore still deserves human rights.
it is interesting to realise that only about 80% of jury verdicts are proven to be the correct decision, so take a moment to decide that if you ended up on the wrong side of that statistic, whether or not you would deserve rights that are entitled to every person regardless of circumstance


though on a lighter note, i would assume the case would have been thrown out if he had raped a women, so the only question is why he wouldnt want to live in a male prison...

 

[PureChaos]

that's ridiculous, should not have been allowed

 

[CrystalShadow]

Try reversing your own example and see if it still makes any sense.
(Basically, if you raise a boy to be a girl, does it still sound reasonable to continue to insist they are a girl when they themselves are quite certain they are a boy?)

I dont quite understand what you mean here? My hypothetical was based on being raised the opposite gender to ones sex? The opposite would have been a girl raised to be a boy and then when she figures it out wishing to remain a boy. Your example reads to me like a set of parents who really wanted a girl trying to tell their boy he is one and him not buying it. If he has a penis and thinks he is a boy then why woul we force him into dresses and such? I may just be missing your point please clarify.

Well, I think you just proved that it doesn't make sense.
But your original example is based on the same logic.

A boy, raised to be a girl... Is not a girl right?
Yet you've raised them to believe that they are... Yet they probably know that that doesn't seem right.
Unless the child has some access to a definite proof that they are, in fact, a boy, they'll have to take it on faith that they are a girl.

What I meant was, if you take the physical evidence out of the equation, your example no longer makes sense.

Trying to explain to someone what it's like to feel like this is bound to cause confusion. Anyone with a knowledge of human anatomy can tell that their body conforms to what you'd expect of 'male' or 'female' (in most cases), but it's hard to explain to anyone how that can feel wrong.

That Transsexualism is classified as a mental disorder is a bit of a catch 22. It cannot be medically treated unless it is considered an illness of some sort, but considering it an illness makes it easier to stigmatize people because of it.
And, see my point above. It's easier to treat the physical aspect, and get a positive result, than it is to get any meaningful benefit from a psychological treatment of it.

This is the primary reason why it isn't considered cosmetic surgery too. Physical modification is the only known treatment with any kind of success rate. And that's not for lack of trying, because it's an approach that (as plenty of comments in this thread still demonstrate) is not one that was widely thought of as a good idea in the past.
But, 50-60 years of evidence show there are simply no alternative treatment methods that actually work.

And why does anyone else even care? Because somehow a lot of people have some kind of weird reaction to it. (men especially.)
Is a Transsexual woman meaningfully different from a real one? Well, there's only one area where I can really think of that being the case, but it's not exclusive to transsexuals, it's just pretty much a certainty when dealing with one...

But it is currently a cosmetic surgery, i mean in my country there us an issue about sending illegal immigrants home where they will face genital mutlation as per their customs. If in their culture its not considered mutilation just as sex changes are not here why dont we send them home? My point is that it may not be classified as mutilation here but it easily could have been and once was. It is a cosmetic change from either standpoint in that the primary reason we have male and females is for reproduction, ie if we were all born asexual this wouldnt be an issue. So until it can practically be achieved where you grant the other sexes reproductive capabilities to a trans person it can still be seen as a cosmetic change not in a true switch.

As to why people care it seems to me that our gender and sex are intrinsically tied for most of us, to come across somebody where there is a seperation is like when you come across an amputee and such. Part of you feels bad for them , part of you wonders why it happened and none of you wants to actully ask. (sorry for the crude comparison but i think you can understand where i am coming from). Also its unfair to tell a man he is wrong for not accepting a trans as he would a woman in all aspects. If say a man finds out his wife/gf is a trans has he not got a right to be angry. She has lied, he may have wanted children and at teh extreme he may not have wanted anything to do with a post-op dude.

Sorry, but cosmetic isn't so simple to define. The reason for a procedure has as much bearing as the procedure itself, when it comes to what is, and is not merely defined by the nature of the procedure itself.
And yes, reproduction is the primary reason we have male and female. But if that were the only reason, then a lot of cultural issues would be non-existent. It's difficult to consider something a cosmetic procedure when it has such wide-ranging consequences on how a person is treated by others. (and I mean that without considering any specific prejudices against transsexuals as additional factors)

Now, with regard to acceptance, we face a more general problem of relationships, namely, trust.
Lying to another person is bound to cause problems, regardless of what it is.
Would it make the situation any less bad if a 'real' woman had lied about being infertile?
No. Lack of honesty is always going to be a problem.

But, it's not something that can be changed. Medical technology could advance to the point where the reproduction thing becomes a non-issue. But that still wouldn't do anything for the consequences of people feeling 'lied' to.
I don't begrudge a man being angry at that. But that doesn't mean I can't be equally angry about a reaction like that. And unfortunately, it's not a matter of if, but of when.
Do you tell someone right away? Or do you wait? It's one of those things...

English law (which incedentally, is weaker than some laws in Neighbouring European countries), views a post-op transsexual as being legally equivalent to the chosen gender in all but a handful of situations. (Some of the few exceptions have to do with laws specifically relating to physical issues, like child-birth, and sporting competitions where there might otherwise be an obvious performance difference.)

You can't make a blanket statement about what a Transsexual is unless you can make a definite statement about what it means to be male or female.
And trust me, you can't.

You may think you can, but you're wrong.
Every conceivable definition, right down to basic genetics (such as the presence or absense of a Y chromosome.) has viable counter-arguments.
To be blunt, Deviding the whole population strictly into male and female is a gross oversimplification of reality.
Enough borderline cases of various types exist to show that nature simply isn't that neat, and it's only our own incessant need to try and classify everything into neat categories that causes us to ignore this fact.

That, and it's so deeply ingrained in our biological reactions, that the very first judgement you make about any person you meet is wether they are male or female.

Those of you that feel like that can argue as loudly as you like that a Male to female Transsexual is actually still a man,

And I can shout just as loudly that your opinion is nonsense, (and hit you over the head with reams of medical studies to boot.)

In the end though, arguing won't get me anywhere with people so close-minded and rigid about such things.

And as for the person in prison? Meh. They're in very serious trouble regardless of which prison system they end up in.

I'm not going to try and shout louder than you, but i have seen medical studes that blame tran-sexuality on man made pollutants making their way into the mothers system and being mistaken for hormones by her endocrine system leading to a number of false signals being sent to the foetus during development. Similar arguements exist for homosexuality and bi-sexuality aswell but you dare mention these medical studies to tehir repective communities and you can expect a bashing for not being sensitive and calling them mutations.

There has to be a certan level of open-minded ness on both sides for the debate to continue, but what you will often get is the trans,homo,bi groups refuting your evidence with "you cant tell me how i feel is wrong" and such. Imagine for a second that i showed you definitive proof that these feelings were caused by pollutants in the system at birth would you then be willing to accept that trans,homos and bis were wrong to feel the way they do?

Unfortunately, that's a Red Herring argument really.

Wrong or not, and whatever the cause, we have to live with the consequences.
In fact, if you consider it a 'birth defect', (which such evidence would imply), then it only strengthens the argument.
You'll find homosexuals view such 'evidence' a little differently because their situation is as simple as a choice. Sure, you may not literally be able to choose who you're attracted to, but it still remains true that there is no physical problem.
A gay man is a man that likes other men. They either admit to it, or they don't.

Transsexuals have it a little more difficult, because the problem is one of self-identity.
Your body and your mind disagree on what you are.
Regardless of the cause, there's only 2 possible solutions:
1. Convince the mind to accept the body it's in.
2. Change the body to match what the mind expects.

60+ years of medical history in trying to treat the problem, show that option 1 doesn't work. That leaves option 2...

The only proof of significance, is wether this is a 'choice', or something 'fixed', (regardless of how it got that way).
And the difference between those two forms of proof determine how probable it is that treatment option no. 1 is viable or not.

Take the counterpoint "you cant tell me how i feel is wrong" : This counter exists for one very simple reason. If you tell someone what they feel is wrong, what you are saying is that they can control it. You are implying (wether you intend to or not), that they have a choice in the matter, when they are quite sure that they do not.

If you're a 'normal' person, this argument still applies, but it's easier to justify.
Let's say you were born male, and feel perfectly fine about it.

Now I tell you it's 'wrong' to be a man.
Is that justifiable? How about if I provide evidence that being a man technically makes you a form of mutated woman? (that's true, by the way, from a certain perspective.)

That's an interesting fact, but how does it prove there's anything wrong with being a man?
More to the point, you had no choice whatsoever in being born a man, so how can I say it's 'wrong' without being grossly unfair?

Ultimately, that's the issue at stake. It's much harder to show, because the changes are mental, and thus have no easily identifiable physical characteristics...

But it's a matter of choice here. Do we get to choose to feel like our body is the wrong one, any more than we actually get to choose what our body is in the first place?

 

[Seanchaidh]

The amount of people here saying this man does not deserve human rights make me sick.
he is human, therefore still deserves human rights.
it is interesting to realise that only about 80% of jury verdicts are proven to be the correct decision, so take a moment to decide that if you ended up on the wrong side of that statistic, whether or not you would deserve rights that are entitled to every person regardless of circumstance

What sorts of rights are those? Does not one forfeit his right to choose where and how he lives when committing a crime with a sentence involving time in prison? There are a lot more important human rights than the government recognizing your gender identity that we deny to convicts of crimes like rape and murder. Does not one forfeit his right to life itself when immediately threatening the lives of others? What could you possibly be talking about when you speak of rights that apply regardless of circumstance?

 

[DoW Lowen]

Don't worry about it, the guys i going to get the shit kicked out of him in prison. By chicks. If prisoners hate something, the thing they hate more than anything is pedophiles and rapist.

Actually no he won't as he is being segregated from the rest of them. I thought that was understood.

Didn't read that in the link that was posted. Where did you get that information?

From the OP. Something about 80,000 pounds (my keyboard is American so I don't have pound symbol on it) to keep shim that convict separated from the rest of the women.

*Rereads* Whoops I thought that number was the legal bill. My bad.

Just a quick edit: Still don't think that will stop the chicks from ripping him apart. Even segregated prisoners cannot be watched over 24/7.

 

[crazyjay321]

Ok, has anyone seen Johnny English?
I sort of like the idea of great britain being turned into a giant prison, but only if the queen agrees, just drop of all the murders and rapist and people with really heinous crimes off, have a few boats in the channel to prevent them from swimming to freedom, and just leave them alone to find food and shelter for themselves.

would any of the british among us like to comment?

use australia thats what it was used for year's ago.


As long as there is a noose at the woman's prison i don't mind.
he should be hung or beheaded getting a lethal injection is to good for this rapist scum, yet they let him go to a prison with more victim's. the judge is a retard