Could an action-RPG work without leveling up?

[kommando367]

I've been thinking about the leveling system in the last 3 Elder Scrolls games and how it differs from most action-RPGs by making the player use skills to level up instead of leveling up to get skill points.

From what I've seen of that series, it seems to entirely possible to make an action-RPG without any point distribution or buying of skills/abilities/perks/attributes/upgrades whatsoever. A game where the player could gain different abilities, upgrades, skills, perks, and attributes based on how they play the game. In theory, this system would give the same sense of progression present in a normal action-RPG, but without the middleman. In theory, A game like this could automatically mold a character into one perfectly suited for a playstyle without actually needing to plan out stats for that playstyle.

For example, a character could gain strength by inflicting melee damage on enemies, health by taking a lot of damage, or agility by dodging enemy attacks. They could even gain perks by simply using the weapons and tactics that those perks benefit.

It seems to me like it would work, it could potentially be the ultimate way of streamlining an action-RPG while still making each character unique. It doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to curve exploitation either.

I'm not completely sure if a system like that could work or not though since I haven't seen a game or even a PC mod that uses a system like this, so I want to know what you guys think.

1. Do you think an action-RPG could work without the manual distribution of points or buying of skills, abilities, perks, attributes, or upgrades?

2. Do You think a system like this would work better or worse than the standard stat point distribution and ability/perk/upgrade buying systems?

 

[DoPo]

That sounds like a cross between TES and Fable. Actually, it sounds more like TES with a tinge of Fable (no levels). Those seem to work, so I don't see why not.

 

[Scrustle]

Just sounds like Elder Scrolls where all the numbers are under the hood instead of being viewed by the player. Seems kind of pointless to me. It would only really take away from the quality of the game if you compare it to Morrowind or Oblivion; i.e., TES without perks. People like seeing numbers. They like to keep track of their progress. It's one of the biggest reasons why people like RPGs. Take out that and people will lose a lot of what motivates them to get stronger. It isn't just being able to get better gear and kill bigger enemies, it's having an easily identifiable metric of your progression as a player. There would be no point in taking it out except to make the game more accessible. While I would usually be for something that does that I think in this case it would actually be one of the rare times when you could genuinely say a game is being watered down, or dumbed down, and made worse for it.

 

[SajuukKhar]

The real problem I see with this type of system is that, eventually, every character you play is going to get hit, a lot, turning everyone into massive health monsters.

On top of that, every character who uses any type of meelee weapon will gain super high STR.

The system you propose, while interesting on paper, will ultimately make most character exactly the same in the long run.

Having a little bit of middle man is a good thing.

 

[The_Lost_King]

I don't see why you would do that but it could work I guess.

 

[Epona]

Not an action RPG but Welcome to 1988:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_II

I don't think many people liked it though. Level numbers matter, they are a way of tracking your progress.

 

[DoPo]

The real problem I see with this type of system is that, eventually, every character you play is going to get hit, a lot, turning everyone into massive health monsters.

On top of that, every character who uses any type of meelee weapon will gain super high STR.

The system you propose, while interesting on paper, will ultimately make most character exactly the same in the long run.

Having a little bit of middle man is a good thing.

It doesn't have to work that way. Ok, the HP thing is ridiculous, I agree - you are weak if you don't need HP, which means a lucky hit can be quite lethal later in the game, while to get more HP you have to constantly risk dying.

However, you don't need to have linear progression for the stat increases. The same way TES games work. A few swings with a sword will lead to a stat increase early on but later you'll need dozens. Take this, apply it to strength. Same thing. A melee fighter will have more strength, than, say, an archer, however it doesn't need to be an overwhelming difference. Same applies to HP, actually - if one characters gets mauled to near death in every encounter, and another doesn't get hit often, you can have the difference between the two be not that great. Say, the higher HP of the two would be 400, while the lower 300, or 300 and 250. Or whatever. The idea is that "being hit a lot" doesn't necessarily mean "you are an HP god".

 

[madwarper]

Last time I checked, Final Fantasy 2 already exists. It was just as grindy as any other Final Fantasy, only slightly easier to abuse.

I don't think this system is inherently better or worse than the conventional method, only different. Personally, I'm not a big fan of this classless, become-a-god, I-can-master-everything type game.

 

[Epona]

Last time I checked, Final Fantasy 2 already exists. It was just as grindy as any other Final Fantasy, only slightly easier to abuse.

I don't think this system is inherently better or worse than the conventional method, only different. Personally, I'm not a big fan of this classless, become-a-god, I-can-master-everything type game.

Yeah, Square had the idea before Bethesda and the idea might even pre-date FF2.

If memory serves, Chrono Cross has a similar system too.

 

[SajuukKhar]

It doesn't have to work that way. Ok, the HP thing is ridiculous, I agree - you are weak if you don't need HP, which means a lucky hit can be quite lethal later in the game, while to get more HP you have to constantly risk dying.

However, you don't need to have linear progression for the stat increases. The same way TES games work. A few swings with a sword will lead to a stat increase early on but later you'll need dozens. Take this, apply it to strength. Same thing. A melee fighter will have more strength, than, say, an archer, however it doesn't need to be an overwhelming difference. Same applies to HP, actually - if one characters gets mauled to near death in every encounter, and another doesn't get hit often, you can have the difference between the two be not that great. Say, the higher HP of the two would be 400, while the lower 300, or 300 and 250. Or whatever. The idea is that "being hit a lot" doesn't necessarily mean "you are an HP god".

True, but I think its far more open to abuse then how Skryim handles its stats now, giving a you a choice of a +10 to a stat at level up.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Elder Turds series would work better without any leveling (compared to the god awful system they use)

Maybe they could focus more on making the gameplay actually decent too !

Right because the XP based leveling system other RPGs use makes SO MUCH more sense?

"Ohh hey guys I can use a skill forever yet magically never get better with it unless I put point in it when I level up HERP DE DERP!"

 

[Epona]

Elder Turds series would work better without any leveling (compared to the god awful system they use)

Maybe they could focus more on making the gameplay actually decent too !

Right because the XP based leveling system other RPGs use makes SO MUCH more sense?

"Ohh hey guys I can use a skill forever yet magically never get better with it unless I put point in it when I level up HERP DE DERP!"

It's called a game for a reason. If you want to be stupid about realism, you shouldn't be using magic in the first place.

 

[SajuukKhar]

It's called a game for a reason. If you want to be stupid about realism, you should be using magic in the first place.

Both systems are unrealistic, all RPGs leveling systems are.

I just prefer a system that alters my character based on what my character does, not how much random shit I can kill.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Yea, realistically the ES system does make more sense. But that's fucking meaningless, because it doesn't translate well or have any place in a fantasy RPG VIDEO GAME.

How does a leveling system based on leveling up via XP gain work any different.

In Skyrim
-Your skills levels are determined by what skills you choose to level up, and you level up by raising skills

In Fallout
-Your skills level are determined by what skills you choose to put skill points in after you level up be killing monsters and ginaing EXP.

In both systems, your skills levels, are ultimately decided by you.

It is literally, the exact same result, either fucking way.

Its like saying that taking the left path down a split hallway is worse then taking the right path down the same split hall way, when both splits in the hallways bend back around to the exact same end, and both paths are equally asl ong.

 

[TehCookie]

The real problem I see with this type of system is that, eventually, every character you play is going to get hit, a lot, turning everyone into massive health monsters.

On top of that, every character who uses any type of meelee weapon will gain super high STR.

The system you propose, while interesting on paper, will ultimately make most character exactly the same in the long run.

Having a little bit of middle man is a good thing.

Well if you dodge instead of being hit you'd get agility, or if there was a blocking mechanic points could go to that and such. Or it could have different melee weapons that require different stats like daggers inflict more damage with high agility and strength rather that it being based on strength alone. Or having an accuracy/critical stat where if every attack you make connects you get points towards that while if you just flail in combat you have a less change of a critical hit or maybe get stamina to be able to keep attacking or something or other...

OT: I'd hate it because it would be impossible to level up a style you have no skill at. In skyrim I was never able to level up my melee since I am terrible at it. Not to mention with the level scaling made that even more difficult since there is no beginner/low level area I could train in. If you can't even pick your perks you couldn't change your playstyle either.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Well that would just be TES with automatic point assignment... not that outlandish.
But you could go one better and not have any of that point/skill stuff, just pull a Zelda, you get better shit as you progress in the game and that better shit just makes you better.

Of course all that is just getting progressively farther from RPG elements so why not just play hack&slash games in the first place.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Well if you dodge instead of being hit you'd get agility, or if there was a blocking mechanic points could go to that and such. Or it could have different melee weapons that require different stats like daggers inflict more damage with high agility and strength rather that it being based on strength alone. Or having an accuracy/critical stat where if every attack you make connects you get points towards that while if you just flail in combat you have a less change of a critical hit or maybe get stamina to be able to keep attacking or something or other...

Though I'd hate it because it would be impossible to level up a style you have no skill at. In skyrim I was never able to level up my melee since I am terrible at it. Not to mention with the level scaling made that even more difficult since there is no beginner/low level area I could train in. If you can't even pick your perks you couldn't change your playstyle either.

But there's nothing preventing you from taking a whole bunch of hits to gain health, then dodging everything later to gain a whole bunch of agility.

As it is in Skyrim, there's a maximum number of attribute raises you have, and that ensures there is balance and you don't get like 500 hp, 500 magicka, and 500 stamina.

Putting a cap on the system described by the OP would be kidna dicksih because you may want specific attribute levels, but have some ultimately wasted by being forced to dodge thus leveling up your agi, and wasting an attribute point that you may have wanted to spend on health.

As much as I despite the attribute system, as needed as it is, I don't believe attributes should be raised by anything besides very direct player-choise.

 

[Epona]

It's called a game for a reason. If you want to be stupid about realism, you should be using magic in the first place.

Both systems are unrealistic, all RPGs leveling systems are.

I just prefer a system that alters my character based on what my character does, not how much random shit I can kill.

Yeah, sounds great but have you ever played FF2?

I played for a few hours just a few days ago and built up my stats pretty fast but I was still getting my ass kicked when I stepped into a different enemy zone. Normally I would look at my levels and say "I'll come back in 5 levels" but since there were no levels I had to just guess my way through it. Eventually, after 4 or 5 deaths I turned the PSP off. Levels are important because when a level rises, all stats rise with it. If I were only monitoring strength or HP, i I would still get my ass kicked often.