Could Andrew Ryan have the right idea?

[Kyuubi Fanatic]

Nope Rapture was collapsing long before the plasmid wars. In a city full of great minds and artists, someone has to be the janitors. Everyone looked down on everyone else, and in a dog eat dog world only a few can be on top. That bred resentment, and resentment was not on Ryan's agenda. Even minor dissent was viewed as rebellious and so Ryan thought to cut Rapture off from the surface, turning Rapture into a prison.

The problem with such ideals is that they only work as ideals. Put in practice, everything begins to break down.

 

[Kaltazraza]

It would have worked out without the plasmids, little sisters, and big daddys.

 

[Cynical skeptic]

well i was advertising that company b was the good guys as well and this actually does happen and did in the end of the 1800's in the united states, thus my goes Standerd oil on them comment. Infact one of my ancestors was this, they owned oil fields in ohio, when they first refused to sell out to standerd oil, he went to his plan B. He cut deals with railroads and refineries, no one woudl touch my ancestors oil, so they then were forced to sell out. This was done to companies all over at the time.

(no i dont think i would be rich if standerd oil handnt done this, from what ive learned by my family is they never planed on expanding there oil operations and the oil wells in that vally dried up in the 1920's anyways.)

Fair enough.

Now, I'm not defending rand, she was a loopy ****, but you're saying shes a moron because she agrees with you.

There's a book by, I think, Howard Bloom (been a while since I read it) called the Lucifer Principle. He collects a bunch of other people's work, so I don't think it's all his ideas, but it's all about the Superorganism, and how, when humans get together in groups, the group becomes, if not more than, then something other than the sum of its parts.

Call it groupthink, call it mob mentality, call it the superorganism. It's a very functionalist perspective, but things don't work the way they should work, they work the way they WORK.

And that, I think, is the problem with Rand/Ryan's "Let's put all the most individual of individuals together and screw everybody else." New hierarchies would emerge, and all those self-interests would make the halls a noisy place.

I don't know, maybe I still need to grind away some idealism before I'm ready to join the hive, but I do not agree that hierarchy is intrinsic to human relations.

 

[JuryNelson]

I don't know, maybe I still need to grind away some idealism before I'm ready to join the hive, but I do not agree that hierarchy is intrinsic to human relations.

Not human relations. Animal communities.

The funniest thing about the word "human" is that we've all convinced ourselves it means something.

 

[Kagim]

No because he operated in an extreme.

The only extreme that should be followed is that there should never be extremes (I know i know).

Extremes never work because they don't allow for the fact that people are different. Unless everyone thinks and acts the same an extreme will fail.

Of course i am referring to governing a society. Not "You shouldn't always eat when your hungry because that is an extreme"

 

[Cynical skeptic]

I don't know, maybe I still need to grind away some idealism before I'm ready to join the hive, but I do not agree that hierarchy is intrinsic to human relations.

Not human relations. Animal communities.

The funniest thing about the word "human" is that we've all convinced ourselves it means something.

Well, the day an animal stands up and says something profound, I'll agree theres no differences. But once you have the ability to recognize a set of actions as instinctual and automatic, you are above them.

I'm of the mind such things as groupthink, superorganisms, etc exist in groups of humans as a result of endorphin rushes. You can give in, you'll want to give in, but a man chooses, a slave obeys.
[sub][sub][sub]yea, i fucking said it and I hate myself for it[/sub][/sub][/sub]

the thing is I am disagreeing, She loved what Standard Oil did, id did things with otu government involvement, I never once listed a government agency, it cut deals with private companies to give them money if they didn't do work with another company, she would of orgasmed on that point. Her view of goverment crushing buisness is a falshood, buisnesses want to do it all the time, no buisness wants to see compitition, they want to crush it.

Yes. But in her fictional situation, corporations were exploiting government ties to crush competition.

But anyway, yea, I get what you're saying. She was the confused and inconsistent one. I never knew her opinions on standard oil (didn't give a shit).

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

I don't personally believe that Andrew Ryan is our savior or anything like that. I just thought that his ideas made sense. So do you think that the ideas could help build society or do you think that we will end up just like rapture(minus the superpowers)?

Ryan was an idealist. The problem being is that any resource is there to be consumed, and where there are consumers, there will be brokers. Any broker that gains enough resources will become corrupt from the power. The only way around this is to combine the ideas of Communism and Capitalism by forcing monopolies to be broken.

Of course, this requires 0% corruption, which is against the human nature.

Capitalism fails because there's always a limited resource. Communism fails because Capitalism is stronger, more inviting.

Homo Sapien is driven to become the Alpha by its instincts; it's allowed us to push from the caves but it also drives us to war over limited resources. Ryan's idea of Art/Science for it's own sake attempts to push us past our instincts by removing the idea of resources, but the greed for resources is what fuels us.

Rapture was doomed from the start - but through every great war comes great peace... for a time.

 

[JaredXE]

The thing about Ayn Rand is that in her world, the worthy were rich and great. You know, the people that actually DO something. The scientist who creates a cure, not the CEO of the Pharmacy company that sells it. The Engineer that creates Cold Fusion, not the government that steals it.


Not particularly seeing a problem with that. Why should we have a welfare system? Why support those who through all the fault of their own, are bums? Why allow the leaches, not the Creators, control the flow of a product?

 

[craddoke]

I know - let's let the Tea Party take over the US and then we'll all know the answer. Personally, I think it would be safest to wait for that answer on a different continent.

 

[MrHero17]

I haven't played a lot of the first bioshock(and none of the 2nd) but wasn't there something within the story where another guy was trying to become the leader of the city and enough people liked the other guy that Andrew Ryan started a fight for control with him?

A big problem with Ayn Rand's work is that she assumes that the human mind is a perfect and logical thing and that humans are in every way above all other animals. People do not ever think or act perfectly and a lot that goes on in our minds happens subconsciously. People have so much bias and prejudice that they are not in anyway aware of that it makes objectivism a fallacy.

 

[Meggiepants]

Okay, I'm not really going to tackle your thought because the problem is you want to throw out why Rapture failed. The Plasmids, the Big Daddy's, etc. But in Ryan/Rand's world you can't throw out these things.

Anyone with the knowhow to create a product should be allowed to do so, according to their philosophies. Anyone who wants to buy it, should be allowed to, regardless of whether or not it is harmful. It is your choice, and you are in complete control of your choices. In other words, if someone created a genetically enhanced human embryo, and sold it, they would be completely allowed to.

If you say you are going to throw out the random desires of humans, you are ignoring one of the biggest problems with all theoretical Utopian propaganda. Humans, when given the freedom to do whatever they want, will. That includes the bad things, like Plasmids. Plasmids are just an extreme stand in for all the harmful yet potentially desirable things people will do when faced with this kind of society. You could easily insert the words "Addictive Drug" wherever plasmid shows up, but still have the same problem.

 

[Twilight_guy]

Ayn Rand. Also there is evidence that Rapture didn't fall apart because of genetic mucking. The civil war that split the city was the result of flaws in objectiveisum coming to a head. The only reason the city is populated by splicers is that everyone else is pretty much dead and the insane asylum doors have been left open. When nobody subjects themselves to the views of others we wind up with people who do whatever they want and choose to evil with no consequence.

 

[Alandoril]

The answer is yes. A city like Rapture could work, IF the people living in it are willing to let it. Just like all utopias they only work if people let them work. So far mankind has proven itself incapable of that.

 

[Sronpop]

Isn't it kind of similar to Libertarianism? You know, minimizing the laws of the state while maximizing the rights of the citizen. I am no expert on these things they just seem kind of similar. Now I have not looked into detail in this, but at a glance I must say I do support the ideas of Libertarianism and Ayn Rand's ideas seem very similar to this. Are there any major differences? Or is it just another word meaning the same thing.

Also, keeping on the topic of Libertarianism, I was talking to a friends about it, and I mentioned that Anarchy is basically just extreme libertarianism. Now that sounds a lot like how Rapture ended up to me. Anyone agree?

 

[me and my dog]

Ayn Rand.
Just so I'm the first one to say it.

Uh my question wasn't whether Ayn Rand is the same as Bioshock. My question was how would the ideas work in real life.

 

[me and my dog]

Okay, I'm not really going to tackle your thought because the problem is you want to throw out why Rapture failed. The Plasmids, the Big Daddy's, etc. But in Ryan/Rand's world you can't throw out these things.

Anyone with the knowhow to create a product should be allowed to do so, according to their philosophies. Anyone who wants to buy it, should be allowed to, regardless of whether or not it is harmful. It is your choice, and you are in complete control of your choices. In other words, if someone created a genetically enhanced human embryo, and sold it, they would be completely allowed to.

If you say you are going to throw out the random desires of humans, you are ignoring one of the biggest problems with all theoretical Utopian propaganda. Humans, when given the freedom to do whatever they want, will. That includes the bad things, like Plasmids. Plasmids are just an extreme stand in for all the harmful yet potentially desirable things people will do when faced with this kind of society. You could easily insert the words "Addictive Drug" wherever plasmid shows up, but still have the same problem.

Uh it's not like there are plasmids in real life. My topic was how would it work in real life. Do you really expect someone to find superpowers underwater?