Could Andrew Ryan have the right idea?

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archvile93

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No Rapture was doomed the second it was constructed. People rarely work together if they can screw over everyone else and benifit in the short term which is what Rapture fostered. This inevitably leads to anarchy and societal collapse. How long do you think you could keep up the lifestyle you have if the government just dissapeared, leaving everyone to their own devices and impulses?

psrdirector said:
Sronpop said:
Isn't it kind of similar to Libertarianism? You know, minimizing the laws of the state while maximizing the rights of the citizen. I am no expert on these things they just seem kind of similar. Now I have not looked into detail in this, but at a glance I must say I do support the ideas of Libertarianism and Ayn Rand's ideas seem very similar to this. Are there any major differences? Or is it just another word meaning the same thing.

Also, keeping on the topic of Libertarianism, I was talking to a friends about it, and I mentioned that Anarchy is basically just extreme libertarianism. Now that sounds a lot like how Rapture ended up to me. Anyone agree?
Its extream liberalism, No government involvement in business on any level. Her view is Goverment should only exist to ensure national security, nothing else.
If I recall, that was the style back in in the twenties, just let businesses do whatever they feel like. It lead to global, catastrophic economic collapse, and the only thing that pulled the world out of the gutter was WWII.
 

KRbertsproduck5

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It would be amazing to live in Rapture! I think it would be an awesome idea, but it would be trillions of dollars to build and billions to keep it so it doesn't rust or explode
 

me and my dog

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Korolev said:
I realize that was a long post so here's a shorter summary:

Ayn Rand was a romantic. People claim that communists have a bad grasp of humanity's nature, and that's true, but I'll contend that Rand's grasp on human nature was just as silly. Her heroes are unrealistic Uber-men who confidently and boldly steer their mighty companies, who never make mistakes, who have no human weaknesses or failings, who have no need for anyone else, ever, who don't depend on government and who will always do the right thing on their own-some.

And people call her books "insightful"? "Realistic"? Please. Atlas Shrugged is as looney-tunes and one-sided as any Soviet-era propaganda poster.

I will admit that Rand was idealistic, and that some of her ideas had merit. The idea that religion should not constrain science is one I support. I also appreciated her ardent atheism and anti-racism. She was consistent in her belief that only the individual should control their own destiny and that all government should be kept to a minimum.

But like all idealists, practical concerns and impossibilities with her philosophy were dismissed without a moment's notice, any real/appropriate criticism savagely rebuked, any compromise swiftly scorned ("never compromise", anyone?). And like Poor Old Rorschach, her ideology doesn't survive in this world in its pure form. Like any ideology, you have to take a moderate path, incorporating the best ideas of multiple ideologies and compromising with others to live and work alongside them.

Rand was a romantic. Not a rational idealist, and it comes across in her works.
Uh dude. My question wasn't is Ayn rand similar to Andrew Ryan? My question was how would Andrew Ryan's(or in your case Ayn rand if that makes you happy)ideas work in real life?
 

me and my dog

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KRbertsproduck5 said:
It would be amazing to live in Rapture! I think it would be an awesome idea, but it would be trillions of dollars to build and billions to keep it so it doesn't rust or explode
I think you misunderstood what I meant. What I meant was what if Andrew Ryan's ideas were used in real life. I wasn't asking "what if rapture was real?"
 

Cynical skeptic

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psrdirector said:
Why would a compay risk that? why would you make a product you need to use less often and are less depedent on. People wont stop smoking because this product is healthier for them, theya re addicted, this addiction means that no matter what they will keep putting money into the companies pocket. Why would anyone rightfully make a less addictive product? and wiht out regulation cigerate companies will go back to saying that they are highly healthy for you, make you live longer, have better sex and look better.
Well, in a situation where you have ten identical companies making ten identical products, and you start going the way of lucky strike (read: theres soon to be one less identical company making one less identical product), you'd try something, you'd gamble. You wouldn't even need to be going out of business.

It just makes sense (to me). Sell fewer cigarettes for more each, use the same amount of raw materials, scale back production temporarily (if you're lucky strike, its not like you have a choice) price based upon capabilities compared to a pack. One cigarette, $0.89, you're set all day. Give someone a free sample, hook em for life.

Also, regulation of false advertising isn't something I'd ever drop. In the case of this, it'd work in the super-cigarette's favor. Especially considering making grandiose claims like that would only bite you in the ass.
 

Cynical skeptic

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psrdirector said:
then you already disagree with andrew ryan, he would do away with anti false advertising laws. And if you think your idea is so great what is stoping companies from doing it right now? not any goverment agency that is for sure. Also you wont hook em for life if you make an addiction free smoke.
I never claimed to dislike the broad strokes of objectivism. It just falls apart too easily.

But false advertising doesn't exactly need to be criminalized. Making verifiably false claims is pure self-defeat that would eventually render all advertising irrelevant in the common mind.

I also wasn't saying no addiction, I was saying less. Not to mention, if you make the positive effects better, you might not even need addictive properties.

You also give me kind of a funny idea. If false advertising was okay, the whole of rapture was under the influence of mind altering drugs. They only thought they could set people on fire, shoot lightning bolts, or make grenades out of cans of Sterno and a wick. The reason the plastic surgeon went insane was a bad trip. Explains why fontaine turned into the guy from the cover of atlas shrugged, fits with the "would you kindly" bit and how effortlessly whatsherface cured it. The big daddies also weren't any bigger than anyone else, and the little sisters didn't exist at all. Also explains why a camera had any effect on anything at all. Also explains why no matter how many splicers you killed, there were never any bodies left for very long. It was all just a huge mass hallucination and if you hadn't been continuously jamming syringes into your arm, everything just would've looked like a bad larp... under the sea! Also explains how fontaine took power so easily. Also, the guns weren't real. But you didn't know because you didn't find one until after "splicing up."
 

Agayek

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me and my dog said:
What you're looking for is a political/economic ideology called "Objectivism". It embraces individual rights and absolute freedom as the highest possible societal values.

As for whether such a system would work in real life: No, don't be ridiculous. Complete abolition of the state would render people powerless from threats to themselves or their property. A complete lack of government will simply never work, not to mention the fact that it won't exist for long. Any anarchy eventually gives rise to a form of government. The strong start giving orders to the weak until a widespread government is established.

That said, I'm definitely a supporter of the philosophy behind Objectivism. I firmly believe there is no higher value than an individual's right to choose. Because of that, I strongly support a government limited solely to the enforcement of two laws: The Law of Equal Liberty and the Non-Aggression Axiom, both of which are fundamental beliefs in most libertarian philosophies. Government exists solely to ensure each individual can make their own choices. No more and no less.
 

FieryTrainwreck

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Ayn Rand was a miserable writer and philosopher. As someone else pointed out, hers is an embarrassingly reductive ideology. In a lot of ways, she was the Palin of her day; her "peers" (as they weren't actually her peers, being experienced, educated, and talented) almost universally derided her writing as naive, transparent, and undeserving of serious scholarly attention.

Bioshock is an outright indictment of Ayn Rand's ideals. It's fairly ham-handed, but her philosophy doesn't deserve any better.

On a more personal side note, I can't wait for all the producers to band together and head for some mountain. They can rot in their own filth, arguing over who gets to clean the toilets and take out the trash. Meanwhile, the rest of us will quickly promote others to take their places at the head of every business, industry, and organization. That's maybe the sole beauty of capitalism; everyone's replaceable - including the top 2%.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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Andrew Ryan's problem wasn't that he was an objectivist (because isn't Rapture shown as being pretty succesful early on?), it is that he is a very shitty objectivist. Bioshock 2 highlights this wonderfully with the theme park that is a thinly veiled hero-worship of Mr. Ryan. Ryan was content with Objectivism for as long as he was top dog but as soon as Fontaine moved in and started competing and "counter-acting the idea of objectivism" with his charities then Andrew Ryan blew his top. Instead of doing the objectivist thing and competing like the self-made man he is, Ryan simply enforces government over Rapture and in doing so he undoes all that Rapture was supposed to represent.

I am still not a proponent of Objectivism (Why? Go read Korolv's post further up this page it is awesome) but Word of God itself has it that Andrew Ryan is a shitty Objectivist and that is the primary reason for why Rapture turned sour so quickly.
 

Meggiepants

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Cynical skeptic said:
Well, for starters, the nuclear arms race was fueled primarily by the idea that after a certain point, one side could have enough nuclear weapons and delivery methods to wipe out the other side before they could retaliate in a real fashion. Things like MIRVs, designed to "sneak in" fifteen or so nuclear payloads with a single launch. Then StarWars, designed to waste money and throw up a lot of smoke about our anti-missile capabilities. But It wasn't until the last couple decades of the cold war that both sides had four to nine hundred times the nuclear weapons required to turn the entire surface of the earth (including the oceans) to glass. To say, it the arms race wasn't always about mutually assured destruction. Just neither side originally thought both sides would hit that point at the same time. Because, like you said, they were only looking five years ahead at a time. It could be argued that "mutually assured destruction" was the beginning of the end of the cold war. It was the point where "winning" simply wasn't possible, and the citizens of the USSR simply had nothing else to work towards.
The doctrine of M.A.D. or Mutually Assured Destruction, as you reference, pre-dates second strike capability. The doctrine was first seen in the late 1890's, before nuclear weapons were invented. It wasn't until technology allowed us to tweak our weaponry so that we could attack even if we had been destroyed the the idea of second strike became military policy. They accepted, that if a country was "First Strike capable" as Russia was, then the next step would be mobile nuclear warheads, or submarine warfare. These second strike ICBM's were meant as a deterrent to places like Russia, "Even if you obliterate us, we still have the power to obliterate you."

But none of that matters. The development of the nuclear bomb was predicated on the philosophy of deterrence, that the development of a destructive enough weapon, would ensure peace. You've made no argument as to why people in your Ryan/Rand society wouldn't have these same thoughts and motivations.

People are people, they don't suddenly become rational just because you pop them into a perfect city.


Now, there are nine or ten cigarette companies, all making a completely identical product... because they have to. In order for one company to start making a more satisfying, less addictive cigarette, they would first have to admit cigarettes are addictive (something even nicotine patches and inhaler/e-cig producers can't outright do), are narcotic, are designed to be addictive and narcotic, and their addictive properties are not intrinsic to the plant. By doing this, they would come under fire from so many libel and slander suits, they'd simply cease to exist overnight. Thus, the only thing every single company can do is quietly make cigarettes more addictive.....

[some snipping]
They've already made products like this in the 1960s. [http://publichealthlawcenter.org/topics/tobacco-control/product-regulation/light/low-yield-cigarettes] Or at the very least tried to. They marketed them as "better for you" cigarettes. Setting aside the fact that they weren't actually better for you - people who originally bought them did not know this. It wasn't until years of studies that this information came out. Long enough to determine how successful the "light" cigarettes were. And some people bought them. But many people didn't buy them, even though they thought they were better for them. They still chose to do the bad for you thing. Because people don't always do what is good for them.

And deregulating the cigarette industry is going to come up with far less people who are like, "Gee, let me make a better 'good for you' product," and far more competitors who come with shit like this:


to sell their "bad for you" product. This is what less regulated tobacco looks like. And you can't tell me, these people didn't know they were making a product that was dangerous. Particularly not when you see ads like this:


You're fooling yourself if you think capitalists have the population's best interest at heart. Unrestrained capitalism is a type of economic warfare where it is every man for himself.

Also, I don't know if you've ever tried slimfast, but it does not taste good. Doesn't taste bad, but its primary gimmick is it expands in your stomach, making eating more physically painful. A food that doesn't require you to eat as much of it isn't marketable mostly because theres no way to market it. Its also back to my first paragraph, you'd have to say other foods are designed to make you want more food.
They are. That is what several [http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/23/health/23well.html] doctors [http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/study-says-junk-food-is-as-addictive-as-heroin-or-cigarettes/19417741/] have decided. They know more about food chemistry than I do, so I tend to take their word for it.

As for diet foods tasting bad, you pick Slimfast. An unfair comparison at best. People could eat fresh fruits and vegetables, that can be prepared to be very tasty without much fat. But they still go to restaurants and order heaping plates of pasta covered in cream sauce. Diet foods don't just include the gimmicky items like Slimfast. People still reach for a candy bar over a fresh orange, or pear. Because it is more pleasurable to eat the candy bar than the orange.
 

Cynical skeptic

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meganmeave said:
You realize all of that is false advertising, right? They didn't actually change the cigarette, they just said they did. Those campaigns are actually what eventually prompted false advertising law and tighter regulation of the tobacco industry.

I've come to realize we're both saying different things when we say "addiction/addictive." I'm saying that a company would get it into it's head to make tobacco more narcotic with reduced to removed withdraw aspects to undermine the competition. But to do that, one would have to admit tobacco is already, which would be suicide due to slander and libel law.

Also, yea, high calorie/fat/salt foods trigger the same addiction responses as cocaine in labrats. But its correlation vs causation. The idea this was known for even 50 years is absurd. We just knew "THIS FOOD GUD! GIEV MAOR!" Its what we're driven to want, but no mustaches were being twirled. It was just good business.

And... no, I do not under any circumstances believe any corporation would act out of the best interests of the general population. Their best interests may coincide with the best interests of the general population once a blue moon but theres always a knife behind their back.
 

Digitaldreamer7

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me and my dog said:
Also just so know, I am a christian. I don't personally believe that Andrew Ryan is our savior or anything like that. I just thought that his ideas made sense. So do you think that the ideas could help build society or do you think that we will end up just like rapture(minus the superpowers)?
Yes I believe it would work.

Sorry to shit on your parade, but, unless you get rid of the Christian belief, you can't come to my new world.
 

me and my dog

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Digitaldreamer7 said:
me and my dog said:
Also just so know, I am a christian. I don't personally believe that Andrew Ryan is our savior or anything like that. I just thought that his ideas made sense. So do you think that the ideas could help build society or do you think that we will end up just like rapture(minus the superpowers)?
Yes I believe it would work.

Sorry to shit on your parade, but, unless you get rid of the Christian belief, you can't come to my new world.
Please don't bring my beliefs into this situation. That is not the point of this topic. I could care less about your "new world".
 

Digitaldreamer7

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me and my dog said:
Please don't bring my beliefs into this situation. That is not the point of this topic. I could care less about your "new world".

Andrew Ryan built rapture because he wanted to get away from the constant threats from governments and the wars over religion. Of course Bioshock takes place during the cold war so the world was filled with corrupt governments in the form of both the soviet union and the USA at the time. He obviously wanted to get away from the constant threat of a nuclear holocaust.

He did not believe in the idea of being a part of a group. He believed that true power comes from the individual.
You brought it into the mix right here. Not I, I was just commenting. Religion believes that the true power comes from the "god." Not the person, so.. again, the new world would have no place for your belief.