Could pedophiles be equivical to homosexuals?

[RabbidKuriboh]

okay let me hang a massive disclaimer over this topic:

1)I am NOT a homophobe, i have nothing against them and don't really care who someone wants to be with

2)I am NOT condoning pedophilia

today pedophilia is illegal and considered by most the most haneous crime a person can commit, but way back when a person was consisered an adult at puberty(around 12-13), but when life expectancies expanded it became clear that more healthy children could be spawned by giving people chances to mature which became around 16, nowadays a person is considered an adult around the age puberty comes to an end, between 17 and 19. So we know that the age of maturity has changed quite a lot over the years, and for all we know it could change again in the near future.

As I'm sure most of you know hundreds of years ago homosexuals were considered evil and under the corruptful influence of satan, and were tortured, lynched and exiled. Fast forward to about 100-150 years ago around the time psychology began to make its strides, homosexuality was considered a mental illness and "sufferers" were given unethical treatment to attempt to cure them. Within the last few decades homosexuals have begun to be recognised as a complete social community, even though there is still a lot of discrimination against them.

What i'm asking is it not feasible that pedophilia could go through the same lifecycle?

Now before i get destroyed by many, many people i want you to consider one thing, the way the world feels about pedophiles was the exact same way the world felt about homosexuals however many years ago

now I sit back and await the mass invasive shitstorm


EDIT: I am NOT saying that the two are the same i just used homosexuality as an example because of the drastic change in public opinion!

^ Above, is your argument, with no edits.
v Below, is my argument, which is your argument, with edits.

Okay let me hang a massive disclaimer over this topic:

1)I am NOT a sexist, i have nothing against females and don't really care who someone wants to be with

2)I am NOT condoning pedophilia

Today pedophilia is illegal and considered by most the most haneous crime a person can commit, but way back when a person was considered an adult at puberty (around 12-13), but when life expectancies expanded it became clear that more healthy children could be spawned by giving people chances to mature which became around 16, nowadays a person is considered an adult around the age puberty comes to an end, between 17 and 19. So we know that the age of maturity has changed quite a lot over the years, and for all we know it could change again in the near future.
I was going to edit this paragraph and input my own points to corrupt your argument, but this entire paragraph is retarded.
Puberty has always started from 14-15, and only a few people get it earlier/later than that. Spawning more babies that live longer does not make them mature later. In many societies, adult-hood is considered 18-21 depending where you live. No, I seriously doubt it will change

As I'm sure most of you know, hundreds of years ago females were considered evil and under the corruptful influence of satan, and were tortured, burned at the stake, and condemned to everlasting torment in hell. Fast forward to about 100-150 years ago around the time humanity started to pull it's head out of it's ass, females are considered inferior to men and were treated unethically. Within the last few decades females have begun to be recognised as equals to men, even though there is still a lot of discrimination against them.

What i'm asking is it not feasible that pedophilia could go through the same lifecycle?
No, there is a difference between sex with a minor, and treating females like crap.
The label society puts on what is and is not an adult does not change the fact that minors do not usually have the mental capacity to correctly choose between what is right and what is wrong.

Now before i get destroyed by many, many people i want you to consider one thing, the way the world feels about pedophiles was the exact same way the world felt about females however many years ago.

Now I sit back and watch you notice how a few subtle changes to your argument prove how stupid it is.


EDIT: I am NOT saying that the two are the same i just used females as an example because of the drastic change in public opinion!

Also: WTF is with all the pedo threads lately?!

sigh i don't even know where to begin,

first off puberty does start around 12 or 13,bear in mind that is an average

second, you couldn't have missed my point more which was asking if you think pedophilia could ever be socially acceptable like homosexuality has become

and third, undermining me personally does not make my point less valid nor yours more valid

 

[rutger5000]

Legally : no
Socially : NO
Morally : HELL NO. Pedophilia is a sick disorder that should be combated (here it's appropriate to hate the sin, not the people themselves.), nobody is hurt by homosexuality (yes STDs are contacted easier, but those people are hurt by their own stupidity not homosexuality).
Biologically : Also no, but I can see where the mistake comes from. Homosexuality is often considered un-natural, but in fact it's not it's very common amongst many animals. Pedophilia is something you hardly ever see in nature (as far as I know). Of course plenty of animals mate with a partner as soon as he/she is fertile, but our closest cousins (apes) generally prefer an older mate, because those already have proven their worth as a capable parent.

 

[Watchmacallit]

okay let me hang a massive disclaimer over this topic:

1)I am NOT a homophobe, i have nothing against them and don't really care who someone wants to be with

2)I am NOT condoning pedophilia

today pedophilia is illegal and considered by most the most haneous crime a person can commit, but way back when a person was consisered an adult at puberty(around 12-13), but when life expectancies expanded it became clear that more healthy children could be spawned by giving people chances to mature which became around 16, nowadays a person is considered an adult around the age puberty comes to an end, between 17 and 19. So we know that the age of maturity has changed quite a lot over the years, and for all we know it could change again in the near future.

As I'm sure most of you know hundreds of years ago homosexuals were considered evil and under the corruptful influence of satan, and were tortured, lynched and exiled. Fast forward to about 100-150 years ago around the time psychology began to make its strides, homosexuality was considered a mental illness and "sufferers" were given unethical treatment to attempt to cure them. Within the last few decades homosexuals have begun to be recognised as a complete social community, even though there is still a lot of discrimination against them.

What i'm asking is it not feasible that pedophilia could go through the same lifecycle?

Now before i get destroyed by many, many people i want you to consider one thing, the way the world feels about pedophiles was the exact same way the world felt about homosexuals however many years ago

now I sit back and await the mass invasive shitstorm


EDIT: I am NOT saying that the two are the same i just used homosexuality as an example because of the drastic change in public opinion!

Actually, thousands of years ago homosexuality was considered normal by the Ancient Greeks.

 

[BGH122]

And as for, "You are acting under the assumption that paedophile=rapist which it does not." No, I'm not. My position is that they should never be given the chance to become a rapist. Forgive me if I don't have faith in people that want to bone little kids, and I think I'm perfectly within my rights to hate them all I want.

Sure, just like the racist who thinks that all black people should be killed so there's no black crime is perfectly legitimised in believing whatever they want as long as they keep it to themselves (okay, not a very fair analogy, but you get my point). Your basic argument for hating paedophiles is biological determinism, 'they're biologically pre-disposed to commit crime', but we're all biological predisposed to act in way forbidden by society yet we overcome our baser instincts. I get that the crime itself is particularly heinous (not as bad as murder, but worse than any other common crime), but hating people before they've even committed a crime based upon your presuppositions about their personality based on a single variable is just bigotry.

 

[Dags90]

Actually, thousands of years ago homosexuality was considered normal by the Ancient Greeks.

And the Romans. Of course, varying degrees of pedophilia were also tolerated.

But you could fill many books with things that haven't always been considered "normal" in Western thought. Hell, in ancient Greece and Rome it was considered strange to confide in your own wife because women were pretty much baby making servants.

 

[Blue_vision]

Not really. Two gay people can like each other and contribute to society in basically the exact same way as a married couple (sans children, but I think that's already a plus in the world today.) Pedophiles... can't really do that. When it comes to people liking small children, there's no such connection, and if there was there isn't a way for them to both add to society together. It's solely one sided, and a single step too far for the adult could have serious, serious repercussions in the development of a child.

So, no.

 

[BGH122]

Thank you very much, glad to have that cleared up.

You're most welcome, I'd go and dig up some interesting studies on the matter but I can't remember which chapters of my psychopathology texts this pertains to!

And unfortunately yes. I know several people who would simply say "Oh you would know" if you can simply spell Paedophile correctly.

Unfortunately, as this thread has proved, there are many people who are either unwilling or unable to have a calm debate about paedophilia.

 

[Dexiro]

and well, in the end, homosexuality is directly linked by the "mental status" of someone and its amount of "cromosomes" (XY or YY) then tell me, where is the cromosome that says "small children like like!!!"??????

Your lack of understanding of even the most basic genetic concepts appals me. Please re-read:

We can disagree with their sexual proclivities and render them illegal without also hating these people for the way they happened to be born.

If a paedophile acts on their urges then we have every right to sentence them, but we must do so with an eye towards teaching them to control their urges. Please re-read my original post several times until you understand it better.

If it counts for anything I seem to be on your side.

People need to learn that paedophiles and people who mess with children are 2 completely different things. Where did this belief come from that if you're a paedo you're automatically a child rapist?

Just a few weeks ago some guy admitted that he was a paedo but said that he'd never consider acting on the attraction in any way. Despite this he was still labelled as being sick and he even got banned.

It's annoying seeing people thinking they have the moral high ground by saying that homosexuality and paedophilia aren't the same thing, but they're missing the point of the thread completely.

 

[Vitor Goncalves]

What is the obsession this site has with posts about pedophiles?

I was wondering the same. Really, can't find any explanation. Well not the site but part of the community.

 

[okogamashii]

And as for, "You are acting under the assumption that paedophile=rapist which it does not." No, I'm not. My position is that they should never be given the chance to become a rapist. Forgive me if I don't have faith in people that want to bone little kids, and I think I'm perfectly within my rights to hate them all I want.

Sure, just like the racist who thinks that all black people should be killed so there's no black crime is perfectly legitimised in believing whatever they want as long as they keep it to themselves (okay, not a very fair analogy, but you get my point). Your basic argument for hating paedophiles is biological determinism, 'they're biologically pre-disposed to commit crime', but we're all biological predisposed to act in way forbidden by society yet we overcome our baser instincts. I get that the crime itself is particularly heinous (not as bad as murder, but worse than any other common crime), but hating people before they've even committed a crime based upon your presuppositions about their personality based on a single variable is just bigotry.

Being of another skin color and wanting to have sex with children are two very different things, though I see your point. That being said, I can't not hate pedophiles. Their behavior and/or the urges they have are just too abhorrent to me.

 

[SaladinPendragon]

Wow the amount of ignorance in this thread is amazing. No the OP isn't flamebaiting, he actually raised a pretty good point.

He wasn't referring to rapist kind of paedophile. The word paeodophile simply means an attraction to younger children.

Not that I support pedophilia but all of you hear the word paedophile and instantly go into white knight mode ("omg holy shit its evil this thread must die")

People just assigned an arbitrary age under which someone is incapable of making decisions for yourself, but who has the right to decide such an age? What if its between a consenting child and an adult?

I think this thread is case in point and proves the OP's idea that paedophilia is so stigmatized that people can't get their head out of their ass when they hear the word. It actually reminds me a lot of the hate against homosexuality. Most of the posts in this thread do not have any reasoning behind it.

Although, of course, that's not to say that homosexuality and paedophilia are exactly comparable.

 

[Eisenfaust]

you know what? sure... let's have slavery go through the same cycle too!


homosexuality was just an awkward topic to talk/think about (massive understatement there, but moving on) and never really victimised anyone... can't exactly say the same thing about pedophilia though

 

[Hatchet90]

I am greatly reminded of this.

 

[Jamous]

and well, in the end, homosexuality is directly linked by the "mental status" of someone and its amount of "cromosomes" (XY or YY) then tell me, where is the cromosome that says "small children like like!!!"??????

Your lack of understanding of even the most basic genetic concepts appals me. Please re-read:

We can disagree with their sexual proclivities and render them illegal without also hating these people for the way they happened to be born.

If a paedophile acts on their urges then we have every right to sentence them, but we must do so with an eye towards teaching them to control their urges. Please re-read my original post several times until you understand it better.

If it counts for anything I seem to be on your side.

People need to learn that paedophiles and people who mess with children are 2 completely different things. Where did this belief come from that if you're a paedo you're automatically a child rapist?

Just a few weeks ago some guy admitted that he was a paedo but said that he'd never consider acting on the attraction in any way. Despite this he was still labelled as being sick and he even got banned.

It's annoying seeing people thinking they have the moral high ground by saying that homosexuality and paedophilia aren't the same thing, but they're missing the point of the thread completely.

I suppose that'd be because Paedophilia is so closely linked with Child Abuse now. It's quite sad really. It must ruin many peoples' lives through no real fault of their own; they're just wired differently. I mean, if they don't actually do anything about their urges then what can we really say is wrong with that?
Also, REALLY? He got banned? Ouch.

 

[rutger5000]

I get the topic you're trying to raise, I think it's a weird topic to raise, but I can see where you going.
First off: a human only fully mentally matures around the age of 21 +. (just wanted to have that out of the way.)
Second off: I like to think society has developed to a certain point where reason and actual not church dictated morals have taken some place in our reasoning. If this is in fact true, and I'm not a ignorant optimist, then I can't see pedophilia ever being accepted.
Third off: Victims. It took us quiet a while to realize, but homosexuality doesn't have any victims. Raping / molesting small children has.
Fourth: Mothers. That's the entire point: mothers. Never underestimate the things a mother will do to protect her child and the power she holds. Most mothers will never allow pedophilia to be allowed, they will band together and put a hold to it.

So in short. No I don't think it will ever be allowed. On the other hand I never thought that Bush would serve two terms , freak-disasters happen.

 

[Sandytimeman]

One major difference: Homosexuality consists of two people who understand sex and wish to have it with each other.

Pedophilia consists of one person understanding and wanting sex with someone who doesn't and doesn't.

Take from that what you will.

My opinion is generally of this caliber. However, I would also like to put out there, I am rather offended at this threads topic.

I have read debates with pedos on other forums before, one who claimed that he actually feel in love with these girls. But when asked if he would still love them after they became women he answered no. So to me, they are just interested in one thing only, sex. Even if its sex against consent and causes physical and emotional damage. If that is true then pedophilia is truly a mental disorder that needs to be treated. And encourage those suffering to submit to treatment.

As opposed to homosexuals who do love people for a lifetime, marry or if its illegal where they live enter into civil unions. That in and of itself combined with the fact that its between consenting adults means that its way better then pedophilia. AND lets just say that the gay rights movement isn't being made any easier by people comparing them to rapists and sex offenders.

 

[Vitor Goncalves]

You kind of skip over the fact that homosexuality was fine before Jesus came, in many cultures. I mean like ancient greek, roman.

He and everybody.

OT: And since when is homossexuality socially acceptable? If it was why most LGBT people live in the closet? Why is it a crime in so many countries (many of them ironically without laws agains paedophilia)? Why assuming is a scandal for most families? Why so many are harassed/bullied on the grounds of being gay? No, homossexuality is not agressively prosecuted but its far from being socially accepted.

 

[BGH122]

However, I have certain thoughts on their social standing (particularly, the ones who do not act on their urges). You see, I'm quite the fan of irrational hatred towards this particular group of individuals. Everything has the potential to serve a certain purpose, and I believe that the social crucifixion of pedophiles has fulfilled this capacity in that it provides pedophiles with yet another reason to not act on their urges; In other words, I support them living in constant fear of both themselves and society, as I believe it to be an effective deterrent. Anything that can keep them from destroying the life of a child benefits not only (and most importantly) the children around them and also themselves. My thoughts, for what they might be worth.

Actually had to dig out one of my old studies for this one:

De Vries et al (2001): Smokers separated into 4 categories:

1) Smoking outcomes presented (morbid messages like 'smoking kills')
2) Self-efficacy enhancing information ONLY (behavioural coping strategies)
3) Outcomes AND self-efficiency
4) No assistance

The lowest rate of successful quit was group 4 (3.2%) followed by group 1 (4.8%) followed by group 3 (8.1%) followed by group 2(8.5%). Study concluded that messages of fear do not induce behaviour change and negatively affect programmes of self-efficacy. Study concluded that self-efficacy ALONE is the best working model for behavioural change.

Sorry, but fear doesn't work as a motivational tool. This has been proven time and time again by psychologists, this is just one of the studies I have to hand. Behavioural change is best brought about by positive assistance with psychological coping mechanisms. Paedophile witch hunts don't work.

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to completely disagree with you on your stance in regards to the actual punishment of those who rape children. They have proven themselves unable to control said urges, and are unfit for society. Others have mentioned that pedophilia cannot be "cured" any more than homosexuality can (I use that comparison very lightly; I do not wish to tread on homosexuality in a way that could ever compare it to the evils of child rape), and the high amount of "repeat offenders" in the pedophilic population is legitimate cause for this belief.

One massive affirmation of the consequent:

Paedophiles can't be cured -> High rates of recidivism in paedophiles

High rates of recidivism in paedophiles -> Paedophiles can't be cured

This is a formal logical fallacy as there's other things which can cause high recidivism, like a lack of training in coping and behavioural techniques.

 

[Zuljeet]

What exactly is complex about this again? Pedophiles need to be removed from society for a ton of very good reasons which all could be summed up in the statement "they (pedophiles) break children". You want me to cite the validity of that statement? Fuck you; do your own research and try to prove me wrong. I am speaking from experience. You wanna try to parse out the act into age groups in the hopes of obfuscating the issue? You can try I guess, but the act and the results are the same: the child in question remains broken.

You have no basis to claim they break children unless you can cite evidence proving that fact. All other beliefs are anecdotal and ergo worthless when trying to applying to large groups. Furthermore, it is not the duty of the respondent to prove their argument, the burden of proof is on s/he who made the original statement.

So both a 17 year old and a 4 year old are equally mentally immature? The age clarification is a valid point and has nothing to do with obfuscation. Still, I guess you could respond to people's logical propositions as if they were deliberately set up with an agenda, that's certainly one way of going about things.

- You made the initial statement which I was responding to, burden of proof is on you chief.
- The effects of sexual assault on children is well documented, PTSD being chief among these along w/ a pile of other tertiary psychological issues stemming from said assault. My personal experiences serve to validate and enforce what has been researched and validated by others (as if that were needed)
- 4 year olds and 17 year olds are not are not equally mature in any respect, and sexual assault affects every age group differently. However, there is little doubt as to what your intent is in using terms like "paedophilia" (there is no functional difference between that and the standard spelling). You are clearly looking to justify your position and/or "argument" that society shouldn't be down on pedophiles because "they were born that way". So yeah, you are absolutely obfuscating the issue by tossing out a complicating factor pertaining to age which attempts to split the argument in "camps", if you will.
- re. agenda: You use a pedobear avatar and write in support of fucking children. You clearly have an agenda. This is at odds w/ my agenda: to protect children from harm. It's simple, really: Keep your fucking hands off of kids.
- Finally, it occurred to me that this is just a troll for hits. If so, hats off to you, I bit. 6/10