Counter Arguments to the Pro Day One DLC Position

[VoidProphet]

And, once again, Day One DLC is for the most part produced in the interim between finished product and day of release.

Next topic.

What's the average wait time between "Game's done" and "Game's being sold"?

Several months, from what I understand.

So in the time it takes a finished game to get to shelves, a couple hour campaign can be designed and created (Including new maps, loot, whatever), then made available for download with a small fraction of the wait time?

I'm not saying this isn't true. I'm just wondering that if it is why companies are still using these apparently obsolete real-world stores to sell their product if it needlessly increases the wait period between investment and profit?

 

[Fiz_The_Toaster]

I personally have no problem with day 1 DLC, and most of the time it's free, so what do I care? If by some rare chance it's not free, then I take a long hard look and see if it's worth it, if it is, then I'm getting it, but if it's not, I WAIT.

I don't understand what the big deal with day 1 DLC is all about, for me it's about supporting the game and the company when I buy DLC, and not if it's fair. If enough people don't buy D1DLC, companies will take the hint and stop doing it.

 

[Trolldor]

And, once again, Day One DLC is for the most part produced in the interim between finished product and day of release.

Next topic.

What's the average wait time between "Game's done" and "Game's being sold"?

Several months, from what I understand.

So in the time it takes a finished game to get to shelves, a couple hour campaign can be designed and created (Including new maps, loot, whatever), then made available for download with a small fraction of the wait time?

I'm not saying this isn't true. I'm just wondering that if it is why companies are still using these apparently obsolete real-world stores to sell their product if it needlessly increases the wait period between investment and profit?

Yes it's possible because the vast majority of modelling, animations and textures have already been created. They have the engine up and running. Essentially they're just adding more maps on. The hard slog has already been done.
A single guy made a complete model overhaul of Jedi Academy - including weapon extensions - in 24 hours. I'm fairly certain a professional company can produce a short hour or so bit of extra content in those few months.

And, by the by, I've never seen 'day-one DLC' that added a more than a full hour to a game, let alone several hours.

 

[VoidProphet]

Yes it's possible because the vast majority of modelling, animations and textures have already been created. They have the engine up and running. Essentially they're just adding more maps on. The hard slog has already been done.
A single guy made a complete model overhaul of Jedi Academy - including weapon extensions - in 24 hours. I'm fairly certain a professional company can produce a short hour or so bit of extra content in those few months.

And, by the by, I've never seen 'day-one DLC' that added a more than a full hour to a game, let alone several hours.

That wasn't actually my question.

 

[Joccaren]

Day 1 DLC I have a problem with as it is mostly a form of Piracy protection, or extra income. Later DLC is a gift, yes, but day 1 DLC is content that could have, and in my opinion should have, been released with the game itself.
It is one of the two main ways companies try, rather unsuccesfully, to defend against piracy these days. One is to give the players part of the game, aka: The main game, and release Day 1 DLC for free for those who purchase the game, and those who don't, don't get the full game. Now, this would be an alright strategy if You only had to register the DLC once, and not be online for the rest of the time, which some games do, however, there are also games that require you to be online whenever you play the game if you want your DLC to work, punishing players who do not pirate, as this problem would likely have been removed by pirates to be able to play the DLC offline.
The second approach is free updates if you purchased the game, and is, IMO, a better way of doing things. Depending on what you update, and how you hide it, Pirates could have to potentially download the entire game again, or if its not a large update or is well hidden in the portions it updates, they would just have to download an illegal version of the update. These updates sometimes include extra content, balance fixes, bug fixes ect. Usually based of user responses to the game. Also, you usually don't have to be online to use the update, only to install it.
This method seams to realise the futility of fighting piracy, and seems to accept it, whilst at the same time counting on the laziness of some 'crackers' and the pirates want for the higher quality version of the game, to reduce piracy.

 

[Keava]

So in the time it takes a finished game to get to shelves, a couple hour campaign can be designed and created (Including new maps, loot, whatever), then made available for download with a small fraction of the wait time?

I'm not saying this isn't true. I'm just wondering that if it is why companies are still using these apparently obsolete real-world stores to sell their product if it needlessly increases the wait period between investment and profit?

Yes and no. Developing a few hours long bonus content would also require hiring the voice actors for a bit longer, writing a more detailed plotline, and all the background stuff that happens when making a game. Just toolset wise it can be done in weeks however.

The wait time however.. im not sure if 100% digital distribution would help since you still need marketing and publishing deals, unless every developer starts selling games through their own website, which would cause more trouble for end-user, they still need to do all the formal stuff with Steam, D2D and rest of the bunch. With consoles there is also whole certificate process that goes after the game "gone gold".

 

[Trolldor]

Yes it's possible because the vast majority of modelling, animations and textures have already been created. They have the engine up and running. Essentially they're just adding more maps on. The hard slog has already been done.
A single guy made a complete model overhaul of Jedi Academy - including weapon extensions - in 24 hours. I'm fairly certain a professional company can produce a short hour or so bit of extra content in those few months.

And, by the by, I've never seen 'day-one DLC' that added a more than a full hour to a game, let alone several hours.

That wasn't actually my question.

Actually, it was the first part of your question.

I didn't care about the second part because evidentially you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[VoidProphet]

The wait time however.. im not sure if 100% digital distribution would help since you still need marketing and publishing deals, unless every developer starts selling games through their own website, which would cause more trouble for end-user, they still need to do all the formal stuff with Steam, D2D and rest of the bunch. With consoles there is also whole certificate process that goes after the game "gone gold".

So I guess the real question for sales is how much of the wait time is spent deciding whether GameStop is going to stock Shooter Man 2 and how much is spent shipping Shooter Man 2 to every GameStop on the continent. I had assumed that all of the former (And much of the marketing company dealing) was done during production, based on the fact that GameStop likely isn't going to need to play the game to figure out whether they're going to sell it, and The Old Republic's been releasing trailers for over a year now and it's still not completed.

And also the fact that shipping to every GameStop on the continent actually seems like it'll take a shitload of time now that I think about it.

 

[secretsantaone]

I seriously don't get how anyone can defend developers charging more for content that should be on the disk at launch. Not too long ago Devs would get shot for even suggesting the idea.

 

[LostCrusader]

And, once again, Day One DLC is for the most part produced in the interim between finished product and day of release.

Next topic.

What's the average wait time between "Game's done" and "Game's being sold"?

Several months, from what I understand.

That doesn't really apply to the DLC that comes on the discs and must be purchased/unlocked to get access to it.

 

[VoidProphet]

Several months, from what I understand.

That doesn't really apply to the DLC that comes on the discs and must be purchased/unlocked to get access to it.

Your argument just won inclusion on the OP.

 

[Aris Khandr]

And, once again, Day One DLC is for the most part produced in the interim between finished product and day of release.

Next topic.

What's the average wait time between "Game's done" and "Game's being sold"?

Several months, from what I understand.

That doesn't really apply to the DLC that comes on the discs and must be purchased/unlocked to get access to it.

Actually, it can. Go burn a CD. Seriously, just burn one. How long did it take? Five minutes? And that's just your pidly little CD burner in your computer. A proper industrial burner can crank those things out. Almost none of the wait time is in printing the CDs. It's in getting the game bug tested, rated, and sometimes just waiting around until release day because actual release dates for games are picked well before the game is ready. Especially with console games, your hard drive space is limited. Putting the DLC on the disc is actually a service to the customer, since it means you don't have to wait for the download, and you don't have to eat up your hard drive space. Log into account, put in code, download unlock key, boom done. So if your team is finished well before release, why not finish up the DLC and just stick it on the disc?

 

[Keava]

So I guess the real question for sales is how much of the wait time is spent deciding whether GameStop is going to stock Shooter Man 2 and how much is spent shipping Shooter Man 2 to every GameStop on the continent. I had assumed that all of the former (And much of the marketing company dealing) was done during production, based on the fact that GameStop likely isn't going to need to play the game to figure out whether they're going to sell it, and The Old Republic's been releasing trailers for over a year now and it's still not completed.

And also the fact that shipping to every GameStop on the continent actually seems like it'll take a shitload of time now that I think about it.

Can't really sign a deal with release date until you actually got game finished tho. You can start preliminary talks of course, but the details can only be finalized when you have a product ready for distribution.

You need to prepare the physical copies, make the DVDs, package them, etc. Then you need to distribute it not only to all GameStops, but all other retailers as well, and all over the world where the game is supposed to be released, you need to also distribute all kinds of promo materials than need translations, prepare the technical and community support lines, loads of logistic and background work involved in making sure the launch goes relatively smoothly.
Sometimes publishers vary between continents, so game that is published by one company in US may be published by different one in EU (was like that with Witcher 2, which actually has 3 or 4 publishers, Atari for US, Namco Bandai for western Europe, CDProjekt for Eastern Europe ..and i'm not sure who publishes it in Russia).

 

[VoidProphet]

Can't really sign a deal with release date until you actually got game finished tho. You can start preliminary talks of course, but the details can only be finalized when you have a product ready for distribution.

You need to prepare the physical copies, make the DVDs, package them, etc. Then you need to distribute it not only to all GameStops, but all other retailers as well, and all over the world where the game is supposed to be released, you need to also distribute all kinds of promo materials than need translations, prepare the technical and community support lines, loads of logistic and background work involved in making sure the launch goes relatively smoothly.
Sometimes publishers vary between continents, so game that is published by one company in US may be published by different one in EU (was like that with Witcher 2, which actually has 3 or 4 publishers, Atari for US, Namco Bandai for western Europe, CDProjekt for Eastern Europe ..and i'm not sure who publishes it in Russia).

I can see how some of that is insurmountable, but a hell of a lot of it seems like it could be cut down (Particularly in the distribution area) by digital release.

In any case, as interesting as this is, I don't want to further derail my own thread into a marketing discussion. If you want, last word's all yours.

 

[Smooth Operator]

What do you mean noone likes Day 1 DLC, do you even know howmany casual gamers there are, people that will cough up any mount of money for that "extra" content, from the gamers I know atleast 80% will buy anything and never complain as long as some pictures move around.

Now be glad for the 20% of gamers that still demand quality and keep the companies from simply selling you an "empty" disc for $60 and charging you another $60 to unlock it all.

Not harping on developers because I know alot of them actually want extra content to go for free, but the publishers don't quite see eye to eye on this, and ofcourse MS and Sony want an extra cut aswell.

 

[LostCrusader]

And, once again, Day One DLC is for the most part produced in the interim between finished product and day of release.

Next topic.

What's the average wait time between "Game's done" and "Game's being sold"?

Several months, from what I understand.

That doesn't really apply to the DLC that comes on the discs and must be purchased/unlocked to get access to it.

Actually, it can. Go burn a CD. Seriously, just burn one. How long did it take? Five minutes? And that's just your pidly little CD burner in your computer. A proper industrial burner can crank those things out. Almost none of the wait time is in printing the CDs. It's in getting the game bug tested, rated, and sometimes just waiting around until release day because actual release dates for games are picked well before the game is ready. Especially with console games, your hard drive space is limited. Putting the DLC on the disc is actually a service to the customer, since it means you don't have to wait for the download, and you don't have to eat up your hard drive space. Log into account, put in code, download unlock key, boom done. So if your team is finished well before release, why not finish up the DLC and just stick it on the disc?

I would expect them to be making the discs at least a few weeks in advance of release. Sure they could spend the time before this creating new DLC content that has to be unlocked, but then wouldn't they need some additional time for testing the DLC that they made to make sure it works (assuming its something substantial and not just some skins)?
When I think of good day one DLC, I picture Dragon Age Origins opening content for the character Shale. This was something that was free to anyone that bought the game new, and didn't take so much out of the game that someone who got the game used and didn't want it could still enjoy the game.
An example of bad day one DLC is shown in the same game, with the Warden's Keep DLC that was available to people who got the special editions (If I'm remembering correctly), which is fine except they put a character in the game who tries to sell you the DLC if you don't already have it.