Couple get armed police visit for googling "pressure cookers"

[Olas]

1)The whole "concept of America as a romantic ideal" IS nationalism (Of a sort, there are several kinds and you can find people for most of them speaking on the news)
Then there are the flag-wavers, the USA #1'ers and so on (not to mention the pure ignorance of anything outside the US), you cannot deny those and while they may not be the majority they are quite numerous, and loud.

I don't even know what you're even referring to. Who goes around waving flags and saying USA #1? Is your entire perception of americans based on watching us during the Olympics? Do you think we all dress like Uncle Sam too? Do you think we pray to the Statue of Liberty? Yes there are some people who are very patriotic, just like in your country and every country, but the actual degree varies hugely depending on where you go and what demographics you talk to and I can guarantee you it's much less than you appear to think.

And what's this "pure ignorance of anything outside the US" crap? You think we don't study world history in school just like you, and that we don't have world news over here just like you? That we don't care about the rest of the world at all? Our population is probably less focused on foreign issues than that of most countries, but keep in mind that we're also nearly as large as all of Europe and we have a lot of issues of our own. To me it sounds like you're the one who's being ignorant if this is really how you envision us. It sounds like you know almost nothing outside of basic American stereotypes.

2) It does not have to be blind obedience, simple acceptance or indifference works too

I don't know what you're referring to, acceptance or indifference to what exactly?

3) Then how do you explain all of the stories about the government spying on its people
The fact that they keep trying is enough to fulfil the clause.

The apparent degree of our government surveillance is disturbing no doubt. But what does that have to do with the government having authority or control over the populace? This surveillance is only being used to spot potential threats to national security, as in terrorists. It has nothing to do with domestic policies at all much less civil liberties.

You said: "The state have to hold total authority over the society and seek to control all aspects of public and private life whenever necessary"

So far you haven't mentioned anything to this affect Where are your examples of the government infringing on peoples' freedom? Where is the state trying to control Americans' private lives? Sure there are laws about what you can't do: 'don't drive too fast', 'don't steal', 'don't murder', but all civilized countries have these laws. The government doesn't intervene in our day to day life, at least not moreso than any other country I've been to.

4) I said LIBERAL democracy not democracy as a whole. (The whole "USA doesn't have true democracy" discussion is for another time)
and considering how close your elections are its opposition is quite strong there. (And at least during election time that opposition turn quite hostile)

Liberal democracy is what people typically mean today when they say democracy, and it more than applies to the United States and essentially all first world nations. Regardless of what you choose to believe about us, you can't deny the simple fact that we have free elections, separate branches of power, multiple distinct political parties, civil rights, civil liberties, and political freedom. The US is considered a liberal democracy by both the UN and Freedom House which ranks it as one of the most free countries in the world.

http://www.freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2013/united-states

You simply have to be living in another reality to believe the United States doesn't support democracy.

 

[purf]

Here, I fixed that for you:

The US [...] ranks as one of the most free countries in the world.

http://www.freedomhouse.org/content/william-h-taft-iv

And I will spell it out in case that link goes unfollowed:
"The US ranks as one of the most free countries in the world.", says US.

I, too, believe that even if we are not there yet, (western) societies are heading straight into a Panopticon ("a new mode of obtaining power of mind over mind") which slowly but consequentially chips away at the freedom of expression and freedom of information.
We already live in a time where putting out information that should be vital for a functioning 'democracy' (reminder: demos+kratía - Rule of the Poeple) gets you imprisonment for life. And think about what a signal like this does to journalism.
I don't remember having voted for Germany's federal trojan. I don't remember this being part of the social democrats' election programme. I'm sure as hell nobody voted for a breach of Germany's constitution when Phantom jets were performing low-altitude flights over protesters at Heiligendamm's G8 summit. Etcpp. All the crap we, the people, have no business in and all that other crap we aren't supposed to know? Democracy, my ass.

And I'm typing this here a couple of days prior to a trip to NYC. I don't feel easy about it. Probably not the right time to make jokes about Homeland Security's weird questionnaire I had to fill out, either.

 

[Spacefrog]

1)The whole "concept of America as a romantic ideal" IS nationalism (Of a sort, there are several kinds and you can find people for most of them speaking on the news)
Then there are the flag-wavers, the USA #1'ers and so on (not to mention the pure ignorance of anything outside the US), you cannot deny those and while they may not be the majority they are quite numerous, and loud.

I don't even know what you're even referring to. Who goes around waving flags and saying USA #1? Is your entire perception of americans based on watching us during the Olympics? Do you think we all dress like Uncle Sam too? Do you think we pray to the Statue of Liberty? Yes there are some people who are very patriotic, just like in your country and every country, but the actual degree varies hugely depending on where you go and what demographics you talk to and I can guarantee you it's much less than you appear to think.

And what's this "pure ignorance of anything outside the US" crap? You think we don't study world history in school just like you, and that we don't have world news over here just like you? That we don't care about the rest of the world at all? Our population is probably less focused on foreign issues than that of most countries, but keep in mind that we're also nearly as large as all of Europe and we have a lot of issues of our own. To me it sounds like you're the one who's being ignorant if this is really how you envision us. It sounds like you know almost nothing outside of basic American stereotypes.

2) It does not have to be blind obedience, simple acceptance or indifference works too

I don't know what you're referring to, acceptance or indifference to what exactly?

3) Then how do you explain all of the stories about the government spying on its people
The fact that they keep trying is enough to fulfil the clause.

The apparent degree of our government surveillance is disturbing no doubt. But what does that have to do with the government having authority or control over the populace? This surveillance is only being used to spot potential threats to national security, as in terrorists. It has nothing to do with domestic policies at all much less civil liberties.

You said: "The state have to hold total authority over the society and seek to control all aspects of public and private life whenever necessary"

So far you haven't mentioned anything to this affect Where are your examples of the government infringing on peoples' freedom? Where is the state trying to control Americans' private lives? Sure there are laws about what you can't do: 'don't drive too fast', 'don't steal', 'don't murder', but all civilized countries have these laws. The government doesn't intervene in our day to day life, at least not moreso than any other country I've been to.

4) I said LIBERAL democracy not democracy as a whole. (The whole "USA doesn't have true democracy" discussion is for another time)
and considering how close your elections are its opposition is quite strong there. (And at least during election time that opposition turn quite hostile)

Liberal democracy is what people typically mean today when they say democracy, and it more than applies to the United States and essentially all first world nations. Regardless of what you choose to believe about us, you can't deny the simple fact that we have free elections, separate branches of power, multiple distinct political parties, civil rights, civil liberties, and political freedom. The US is considered a liberal democracy by both the UN and Freedom House which ranks it as one of the most free countries in the world.

http://www.freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2013/united-states

You simply have to be living in another reality to believe the United States doesn't support democracy.[/quote]

Are you even reading my posts?
1)I repeat "you cannot deny those and while they may not be the majority they are quite numerous, and loud." and they are not only in sporting events, "concept of America as a romantic ideal" IS a minor form of flag-waving
2)Of what steps the government takes and how much power in gives itself
3)Surveillance is where it starts, little by little they start arresting people on vaguer and vaguer grounds (for goggling pressure cooker) and for smaller and smaller perceived crimes
Every journey starts with a little step and this surveillance is just the start unless someone makes it to stop
4)Are you even reading my posts? Then I will repeat what I wrote in that quote
I NEVER SAID THAT THE US WAS AGAINST DEMOCRACY
Here's a quick reminder for you
The US have two main political parties the Democrats and the Republicans
Those parties are founded in different basic philosophies, LIBERALISM and the conservationism respectively (The good old left vs. right discussion) and fascists lean towards conservationists simple as that.
My point was that since the voters was 51/47% it would say that there was still quite an opposition to to liberalism and it could go either way
That particular part of a political view have nothing whatsoever to do with free elections, separate branches of power, multiple distinct political parties, civil rights, civil liberties, political freedom or whether or not you are a democracy
It merely decides how big the government should be.

What did I meant when I said that the US does not have true democracy?
A better word would probably be pure democracy
Democracy is a form of control where the people vote on every decision the country have to make, with the majority deciding.
That means for it to be pure democracy, the people would have to vote about EVERYTHING.
The US does not follow that kind of philosophy, no-one does, you would never get anything decided as it would drown in bureaucracy.
Instead we have representative democracy where we choose people to take the decisions, sort of a light version of democracy.
It was merely an example of how people should stop thinking in absolutes, no country follow any philosophy 100%

 

[Olas]

Are you even reading my posts?

Lol, ya. I always find it funny when people ask this question, especially when I try really hard to address what they've said.

1)I repeat "you cannot deny those and while they may not be the majority they are quite numerous, and loud." and they are not only in sporting events, "concept of America as a romantic ideal" IS a minor form of flag-waving

Look dude, point me to a single country that doesn't have patriotic people, or patriotism in some respect. Where are you from? Are there no flags in your country?

I don't know what you're referring to, acceptance or indifference to what exactly?

2)Of what steps the government takes and how much power in gives itself

And where exactly have you gotten the impression that Americans are "indifferent" or "accepting" of these? We aren't, the NSA scandal lead to an enourmous shitstorm as do most stories like the one in this thread. Americans are almost as paranoid of our own government as we are of terrorists. Do you know why so many Americans feel the need to own guns? There are many reasons, but the largest is that many believe they may have to form militias and overthrow the US government some day if it ever becomes tyrannical. I shit you not some of us really are that crazy, but if anything I'd say we're most mistrustful of our government than most developed nations.

Remember our nation began as a rebellion against a powerful ruler, and

3)Surveillance is where it starts, little by little they start arresting people on vaguer and vaguer grounds (for goggling pressure cooker) and for smaller and smaller perceived crimes
Every journey starts with a little step and this surveillance is just the start unless someone makes it to stop

So basically it's all just a gigantic slippery slope argument?
Your criteria for a Fascist state was:

"3) The state have to hold total authority over the society and seek to control all aspects of public and private life whenever necessary"

not

"3) The state has to allude the impression that some day in the distant future it may eventually hold total authority over the society and seek to control all aspects of public and private life whenever necessary"

I think even the latter is a huge stretch. Surveillance is one thing; revoking civil rights and actively controlling most aspects of public and private life is an entirely different story. Unless you can prove that the federal government is using this surveillance for anything other than catching potential terrorists, I think this criteria is wholly debunked.

4)Are you even reading my posts? Then I will repeat what I wrote in that quote
I NEVER SAID THAT THE US WAS AGAINST DEMOCRACY
Here's a quick reminder for you
The US have two main political parties the Democrats and the Republicans
Those parties are founded in different basic philosophies, LIBERALISM and the conservationism respectively (The good old left vs. right discussion) and fascists lean towards conservationists simple as that.
My point was that since the voters was 51/47% it would say that there was still quite an opposition to to liberalism and it could go either way
That particular part of a political view have nothing whatsoever to do with free elections, separate branches of power, multiple distinct political parties, civil rights, civil liberties, political freedom or whether or not you are a democracy
It merely decides how big the government should be.

What did I meant when I said that the US does not have true democracy?
A better word would probably be pure democracy
Democracy is a form of control where the people vote on every decision the country have to make, with the majority deciding.
That means for it to be pure democracy, the people would have to vote about EVERYTHING.
The US does not follow that kind of philosophy, no-one does, you would never get anything decided as it would drown in bureaucracy.
Instead we have representative democracy where we choose people to take the decisions, sort of a light version of democracy.
It was merely an example of how people should stop thinking in absolutes, no country follow any philosophy 100%

Wow, I can't believe you just bothered to lecture me on my own country's politics. Also, I don't know why you keep bringing it up, but I know what a "true democracy" is. I studied ancient Greece in middle school too wiseguy.

So basically you think "liberal democracy" specifically means the 'democratic party'? Are you fucking kidding me? So you didn't even bother looking up what 'liberal democracy' means? Here, read this, it's not too long.

http://australianpolitics.com/democracy-and-politics/key-terms/liberal-democracy

Okay, so now that we're clear, "liberal democracy" has nothing to do with either of the two major political parties of the United States. Both democrats and and republicans believe in having a 'liberal democracy' which like I said is basically just any country with free elections, decentralized power, and civil liberties for all citizens.

It wouldn't matter if the conservatives had won the last 10 presidential elections and held both the House and Senate, we would still be a "liberal democracy" by every definition of the term.

Are we done?