Creepy Summer Lesson PSVR Game Gets New Trailer, Details

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Games about grown men/boys killing hundreds if not thousands of people?

I assume (given you didn't elaborate) you're referring to the commodification of violence and murder much of the world has going on, and its rather senseless 'violence okay, sex/nudity bad' stance? If so; great, but that has no bearing in this instance on whether or not the normalisation of perving at schoolgirls should be considered creepy or not.

Just like how fps games don't nornalize shooting people in the face, so do dating sims not nornalize hitting on schoolgirls you tutor. Yes, both things are bad if done in reality (though in Japan and most of the world girls of that age are marrigeable, so you don't need to normalize what is already normal) yet we only ever seem to take offense with the latter, when the former is MUCH worse. There seems to be an understanding of "people aren't real murderers, they're just having fun" but when sex-fun enters the picture suddenly the same common sense evaporates. This discrepancy is critical and unadressed will always make one into a hypocrite.

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

You sound like this is your first encounter with Japan. Everything's fair game as long as it's fantasy. Otherwise you wouldn't have hotels that let women sleep with their husbandos staring right at them, or Free, or any of the fujobait that's been coming out. This shit is no less creepy than those. Everything's a fetish, and everything can and will be sexualized.

I was watching anime on VHS, so no. And the "everything can and will be sexualised"/objectified isn't really an out and out justification, is it, making something exempt from being questioned or deconstructed. And we're not talking about esoteric communities safely pandering to their own kinks - I'm all for that. This is Sony supporting and showing this off, so I'd say it's worth looking at what kind of message that may or may not send.

That said, if this only gets a native release, then it'll certainly just be another natural extension of vanilla-weird for Japanese culture - DoA's devs have already shown what the next 'step' would be, and there a hundred and one creepier and nastier flavours waiting in the wings.

As long as the guys aren't going out and committing some frowned upon actions, then no harm done. Also I believe in Japan you can get with 14 year old girls while here in USA it's 18. Just a age difference, but yea my examples still apply.

A cursory google reveals 13's technically the minimum, but the 'effective' age of consent may well be 18, going from Wiki's entry; However, the Children Welfare Act chapter 34 forbids any act of "fornication" with children (here defined as anyone under 18 years of age).

I've no issues with young people being sexual, and having a sexuality, btw - I'm really no puritan, far from it. However, there's a difference between a culture that acknowledges agency of sexuality in adolescent age groups for their own empowerment and education/welfare, and a culture which presents an often sexualised version of just one gender by an another (and typically by people well above that age bracket). Though see the end of this post for another complication in deconstructing flirt/'relationship' games like this.

Just like how fps games don't nornalize shooting people in the face, so do dating sims not nornalize hitting on schoolgirls you tutor. Yes, both things are bad if done in reality (though in Japan and most of the world girls of that age are marrigeable, so you don't need to normalize what is already normal) yet we only ever seem to take offense with the latter, when the former is MUCH worse.

I'm not sure what's gained by being so relativistic about this; 'well, sexualising young girls might not be good, but this other thing's MUCH worse'.

As for the commodification of violence: I don't think it's as simple as 'FPS games don't cause people to kill each other, ergo there's no issue and nothing to talk about' - that's a very surface level approach. We have to ask what that double standard about violence and nudity/sexuality says about our own culture (this is a separate topic, but a very broad and general origin point seems to be hangovers from religious influence/identity; patriarchal, puritanical, sexist, and accepting of barbarism and bloodshed on their terms).

There seems to be an understanding of "people aren't real murderers, they're just having fun" but when sex-fun enters the picture suddenly the same common sense evaporates.

Surely the tone and content of the "sex-fun" should be up for discussion and critique, though, particularly if it's ostensibly mainstream, therefore very visible?

I mean, jeese... All this after one person casually describing this game as creepy? Isn't that like saying the sky's blue on a sunny day? I'm not calling for pitchforks and bans, btw, and I'm pretty sure neither was the article's author when he used the apparently highly provocative description of 'creepy' (provided they picked the headhline, which isn't necessarily the case).

Granted, I'm coming at this from a Western feminist perspective, so to me much of Japanese culture's gender dynamics seem rather appalling (the 'school days = freedom' issue seems to compound the fetishisation of girls, too). And so it'd be interesting to hear a Japanese feminist perspective on this.

 

[Callate]

Um, if games being all about grown men/boys flirting with virtual underage girls isn't "creepy", what is?

I don't know; mowing down hundreds of virtual human beings with an automatic weapon and being cheered on for your high combo bonus?

"Creepy" is very much in the eye of the beholder. If you saw a game like this as encouragement to, say, stalk a real-life human being, that would be creepy. If you were attracted to a game like this because, say, you were kind of reserved and shy, you live in a high-pressure environment in which you spend enormous amounts of time on your work or academics, have very little time to socialize, and are mortally terrified at the idea of being seen to "fail" in any aspect of your life... I imagine a fantasy environment where you could talk with a pretty girl without serious consequences might be kind of a relief.

I don't feel it's especially helpful to pass judgment on what people do with entirely virtual characters. Worse, it runs the risk of marginalizing and shaming people who are frequently already marginalized and ashamed.

Oh, creepy, wacky Japan, with your idols and your virtual girls and your maid cafes... And your violent crime rate that's a tiny fraction of that of the United States...

ADD: Scrolling down, I see some of this ground has been covered already. Still, I think the point stands... And I think it's a fairly obvious double standard to suggest that playing a game like this "normalizes" certain behaviors but referring to the game and those who might play it as "creepy" does not.

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

I don't feel it's especially helpful to pass judgment on what people do with entirely virtual characters. Worse, it runs the risk of marginalizing and shaming people who are frequently already marginalized and ashamed.

So those that consume this kind of stuff are also the marginalised and shamed? I suppose to some that'd make such content - with biting irony - thoroughly SJW'y, it being a 'safe space' and all...

But, less facetiously; it would be interesting to see the demographics for people buying and playing it. If it turns out to be adolescents or those just a few years above whatever the 'character's' age is supposed to be, your point could be validated (also important is the dialogue and text; I can pick up words and certain phrases, but they're general terms and tell me almost nothing about context or tone - what's shown in the video may as well be a slightly peculiar teaching aid. as a result, this whole exchange in this thread is skewed and overly broad). I'm fine with trying to understand other culture's mores, and would like to know more of feminism in Japan in particular (to get a sense of whether this kind of stuff is seen as problematic by them. given the enduring appeal of dating sims of all stripes, I'd guess no objection would make any difference anyway).

However, I'm not a 100% relativism kind of guy; 'different culture is different' doesn't mean there aren't significant issues to address in all cultures. Am I qualified to unpack it all? No; understanding one's own culture is complicated enough, and so comparing it to another you've never directly experienced or properly studied is magnitudes harder. I don't believe being an outsider precludes commentary or critique, though, and it can give a perspective that those familiar or immersed in a culture can't quite match (both perspectives would be important).

Oh, creepy, wacky Japan, with your idols and your virtual girls and your maid cafes... And your violent crime rate that's a tiny fraction of that of the United States...

ADD: Scrolling down, I see some of this ground has been covered already. Still, I think the point stands... And I think it's a fairly obvious double standard to suggest that playing a game like this "normalizes" certain behaviors but referring to the game and those who might play it as "creepy" does not.

I don't follow the phrasing of the last line.

I see no issue with finding both commodified, consequence-free pop-violence (or, to address the country you cited, their peculiarly paranoid, sentimental addiction to gun culture) and 'creepy' media problematic, though. I mean, must everyone pick one they defend and one which is apparently 'worse'? Both are surely worth examining.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

@darth_rosenberg

The key issue is that one will not assume negative traits about a person if they hear they play fps games while one tends to do so about games where the fun stems from this kind of teritory. Specifically, the difference is in assuming the person is deriving enjoyment not just because the thing is fun but because they have some sort of deviant weird or in the titular term "creepy" tastes that they should be ashamed of. No, it is equally plausible for one to noncreepily enjoy creepy fantasies, as it is the case for when people enjoy murder sprees im gta without an inch of actual malice.

All that is requird for one to not be a hypocrite is to show the same understanding that is shown when you hear someone plays call of duty and you do not woder if they are carrying a concealed gun, inching at the chance to shoot everyoe around them. Hell, doesn't that scenario soud absurd. Yeah, and it is equally as absurd to expect people who like other kinds of games to forget how real life works as well.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

@darth_rosenberg

The key issue is that one will not assume negative traits about a person if they hear they play fps games while one tends to do so about games where the fun stems from this kind of teritory. Specifically, the difference is in assuming the person is deriving enjoyment not just because the thing is fun but because they have some sort of deviant weird or in the titular term "creepy" tastes that they should be ashamed of. No, it is equally plausible for one to noncreepily enjoy creepy fantasies, as it is the case for when people enjoy murder sprees im gta without an inch of actual malice.

All that is requird for one to not be a hypocrite is to show the same understanding that is shown when you hear someone plays call of duty and you do not woder if they are carrying a concealed gun, inching at the chance to shoot everyoe around them. Hell, doesn't that scenario soud absurd. Yeah, and it is equally as absurd to expect people who like other kinds of games to forget how real life works as well.

If that is the case, if it so fun to partake in these activities, then why not take up teaching? Private tutoring? Nothing stopping anyone, and to be honest, wouldn't the real thing actually be a contribution to humanity in its sincerest form? Seems like a complete waste otherwise in this sense. Like...oh you know what, Nevermind. Is there a gender option? Is there a character or age option? Spare the bullshit at least. A relationship digitally rendered for those that want it. It is nothing deeper, whatever way you'd like to spin it. But it's all innocent right? Then these words are meaningless.

And sign here, here, paw print here and sign here. Once that is done, we will get started on Total Domination steps towards world peace.

Err.. sure, thats what they are for? *Laughs loudly*

*Slams paw down with citrus scented zest*
Count me in, claws McCaw! I will do you and your shady organisation damn proud, I tell you! These paws have covered wars yaknow?

 

[Nomad Prime]

If that is the case, if it so fun to partake in these activities, then why not take up teaching? Private tutoring? Nothing stopping anyone, and to be honest, wouldn't the real thing actually be a contribution to humanity in its sincerest form? Seems like a complete waste otherwise in this sense. Like...oh you know what, Nevermind. Is there a gender option? Is there a character or age option? Spare the bullshit at least. A relationship digitally rendered for those that want it. It is nothing deeper, whatever way you'd like to spin it. But it's all innocent right? Then these words are meaningless.

If that is the case, if it's so fun to partake in FPS games, then why not join the military? PMCs? Nothing stopping anyone, and to be honest, wouldn't the real thing be, while maybe not a contribution to humanity, a productive thing to do?

Yeah, the reason play is so fun is because it takes a somewhat enjoyable activity and strips away the bits that make it not be pure fun. I have no doubt the girl in this game is an ideal student, for instance, with maybe one or two easy-to-overcome hurdles, as opposed to the nightmares real students are.

And even if it is about the girl, it doesn't matter, really. Repression never solves anything. Ironically the state of sexualization in Japan is perfect proof of that, the reason it's so weird over there is because straight-up porn is so heavily regulated people have to get creative.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

@darth_rosenberg

The key issue is that one will not assume negative traits about a person if they hear they play fps games while one tends to do so about games where the fun stems from this kind of teritory. Specifically, the difference is in assuming the person is deriving enjoyment not just because the thing is fun but because they have some sort of deviant weird or in the titular term "creepy" tastes that they should be ashamed of. No, it is equally plausible for one to noncreepily enjoy creepy fantasies, as it is the case for when people enjoy murder sprees im gta without an inch of actual malice.

All that is requird for one to not be a hypocrite is to show the same understanding that is shown when you hear someone plays call of duty and you do not woder if they are carrying a concealed gun, inching at the chance to shoot everyoe around them. Hell, doesn't that scenario soud absurd. Yeah, and it is equally as absurd to expect people who like other kinds of games to forget how real life works as well.

If that is the case, if it so fun to partake in these activities, then why not take up teaching? Private tutoring? Nothing stopping anyone, and to be honest, wouldn't the real thing actually be a contribution to humanity in its sincerest form? Seems like a complete waste otherwise in this sense. Like...oh you know what, Nevermind. Is there a gender option? Is there a character or age option? Spare the bullshit at least. A relationship digitally rendered for those that want it. It is nothing deeper, whatever way you'd like to spin it. But it's all innocent right? Then these words are meaningless.

This game has as much in common with real tutoring as does CoD with actual war or being in the military. Hence, one will not get an experience anywhere close to the one in game if they did the same thing in reality. This is why games exist, to give us a romanticized fantasy.


What I said went over your head so far that you need a telescope to see it. I never mentioned contribution to society or anything, so you saying it isn't that makes no difference as I never claimed it to be. Nor did I claim that the activity irrespective of context is innocent, unless you deem murder sprees innocent as well.

No, what it is is a male-aimed romantic comedy style thing. Which, as I said, can be fun without you being into ACTUAL grooming of high school girls you tutor, like how GTA is fun without you bein an actual supporter or the mafia or without you dreaming of being a gangster one day. It is perfectly nornal for people without negtive traits to enjoy ALL kinds of fantasy in a healthy way that doesn't betray some fault with their character. All one needs is a firm grip in reality.

Basically this entire objection is "oh, this guy is fawning over girls that look so young, I don't like that, he must be a creepy weirdo cause why would anyone do that" well, that doesn't mean anything beyond that people like what you don't like and find various things fun that you do not. They're allowed to. Just because the fun to be had in something is beyond your comprehension doesn't make it nonexistent.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

If that is the case, if it so fun to partake in these activities, then why not take up teaching? Private tutoring? Nothing stopping anyone, and to be honest, wouldn't the real thing actually be a contribution to humanity in its sincerest form? Seems like a complete waste otherwise in this sense. Like...oh you know what, Nevermind. Is there a gender option? Is there a character or age option? Spare the bullshit at least. A relationship digitally rendered for those that want it. It is nothing deeper, whatever way you'd like to spin it. But it's all innocent right? Then these words are meaningless.

If that is the case, if it's so fun to partake in FPS games, then why not join the military? PMCs? Nothing stopping anyone, and to be honest, wouldn't the real thing be, while maybe not a contribution to humanity, a productive thing to do?

Yeah, the reason play is so fun is because it takes a somewhat enjoyable activity and strips away the bits that make it not be pure fun. I have no doubt the girl in this game is an ideal student, for instance, with maybe one or two easy-to-overcome hurdles, as opposed to the nightmares real students are.

And even if it is about the girl, it doesn't matter, really. Repression never solves anything. Ironically the state of sexualization in Japan is perfect proof of that, the reason it's so weird over there is because straight-up porn is so heavily regulated people have to get creative.

You honestly think sex and violence are comparable? Alrighty then, ok, I see this defense all the time as if somebody's going to take their games away or at least trying to. Nobody is here is wanting to do that as far as I'm aware. But the reasons one goes into these experiences are to satiate specific desires and people don't like them being pointed out. If it makes you feel any better, nothing I say or think here matters and am fully aware this is harmless, just a little exasperating to watch the weird justifications.

 

[infohippie]

"Creepy" is one of the most overused words ever. All it seems to mean now is "Something I don't like and will look down on you for if you like it."

Um, if games being all about grown men/boys flirting with virtual underage girls isn't "creepy", what is?

This is 'typical Japanese thing is typical' example number 5470, so I'm not exactly surprised or perturbed it exists. But calling it creepy seems to be pretty reasonable.

And here I thought kinkshaming was supposed to be a bad thing.

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

And here I thought kinkshaming was supposed to be a bad thing.

Ah, my apologies; I forgot this is 'gamer' culture, ergo no questions can be asked, no challenges made, and no critique applied. Nothing means anything - except certain things made by certain people determined by certain other peoples.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

And here I thought kinkshaming was supposed to be a bad thing.

Ah, my apologies; I forgot this is 'gamer' culture, ergo no questions can be asked, no challenges made, and no critique applied. Nothing means anything - except certain things made by certain people determined by certain other peoples.

You don't get to challenge what free people do in their private time when it doesn't involve you nor do you get to brand or label people based on such factors. Critique things that exist outide of peoples imaginations, deams, minds and fantasies and then you will be applicable. Thought police and morality judgement are asked for by nobody.

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

You don't get to challenge what free people do in their private time when it doesn't involve you nor do you get to brand or label people based on such factors. Critique things that exist outide of peoples imaginations, deams, minds and fantasies and then you will be applicable. Thought police and morality judgement are asked for by nobody.

Do you see value in deconstructing art/pop-culture, and digging in to the workings of society and culture/s? Exploring what on earth a 'game' like this reflects, why it exists, and how it's perceived (from various perspectives) is a part of that. Everything is up for critique whether you, or others, like it or not.

If I was trying to ban such content - you might have a point.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

You don't get to challenge what free people do in their private time when it doesn't involve you nor do you get to brand or label people based on such factors. Critique things that exist outide of peoples imaginations, deams, minds and fantasies and then you will be applicable. Thought police and morality judgement are asked for by nobody.

Do you see value in deconstructing art/pop-culture, and digging in to the workings of society and culture/s? Exploring what on earth a 'game' like this reflects, why it exists, and how it's perceived (from various perspectives) is a part of that. Everything is up for critique whether you, or others, like it or not.

If I was trying to ban such content - you might have a point.

Analysis, sure. Polemic antithesis such as the one expressed here is too biased to have much of any literary use. I actually like reading a lot of cultural analysis books about anime/otaku culture stuff, ones with a psychological or sociological basis. This is not it. To liken it to them is a disservice. Critique from a place of understanding is welcome, what isn't is people calling your fun creepy cause they don't share your tastes and masking it under the mantle of critique to lend their opinions credibility.


It is a lot easier to get information about something if you do not begin your investigation by badmouthing the people from whom the information will be generated in an accusatory tone. One only interestead in such a task will stifle their opinions and ask neutral questions to draw the desired information out. You know, the exact opposite of callin things creepy on the offset and going on from there? That method. If it truly was your aim to conduct such a discussion, I firstly would question why in this topic when the title is already destructive enough towards that aim, as it makes people defensive Still, you could do it by undoing its harm and asking neutral questions, not nodding along in agreement as you expect the people in whose eye you just spit to be cooperative with you.

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

Analysis, sure. Polemic antithesis such as the one expressed here is too biased to have much of any literary use. I actually like reading a lot of cultural analysis books about anime/otaku culture stuff, ones with a psychological or sociological basis. This is not it. To liken it to them is a disservice.

True, this is just a thread on a forum - it typically encourages one thing the most; reactions - and how people respond to something is still an important part of discourse, no matter how ostensibly ignorant. All knowledge and understanding comes from a point of ignorance and reaction. If you've read any of my other posts in this thread, then you'll already know I've made clear I'm very much an outsider with this subject (a lifelong affection and interest in certain Japanese filmmakers and Japanese history isn't very helpful, though Japan's very distinct history of erotica gives a little more context).

Critique from a place of understanding is welcome, what isn't is people calling your fun creepy cause they don't share your tastes and masking it under the mantle of critique to lend their opinions credibility.

...which is something I never did, as I've pointed out. This thread represents various parallel discussions/interactions along similar themes. Intentions or motives for posters can obviously shift.

But can you at least concede that from a Western perspective, content like this seems--- well, pick yer title; weird, creepy, bizarre, etc? My original point was just to assert that such a reaction's perfectly reasonable and frankly expected.

It is a lot easier to get information about something if you do not begin your investigation by badmouthing the people from whom the information will be generated in an accusatory tone.

I criticised/questioned the media itself - not the consumers, which is just as much a right of mine as it is for the creators to create it, and consumers to consume.

If it truly was your aim to conduct such a discussion...

Not originally, no. As I said above; I was only suggesting a broadly negative or puzzled/bewildered reaction to this kind of content shouldn't at all be surprising to anyone. People bridling at the mere hint of a challenge or opposed position on the game prompted more of a discussion.

...I firstly would question why in this topic when the title is already destructive enough towards that aim, as it makes people defensive.

They should be used to the reaction, though, given the understandable clash of cultures.

As for the title? It may reflect the author's own feelings, it may have been selected because it gets attention and facilitates clicks and discussion - or both (Steve may not even have selected the title, either).

Still, you could do it by undoing its harm and asking neutral questions, not nodding along in agreement as you expect the people in whose eye you just spit to be cooperative with you.

...if questioning or being critical of such content is too much for fans/consumers to handle, then I'd suggest they're a tad over-sensitive or are over-identifying with/through the stuff they consume.

So, questions, then - let's see how well you can inform me: what age group might mostly buy a product like Summer Lesson? And if the age group is closer to the girl's age bracket, or older, what could that mean? And why, fundamentally would someone - I'm assuming males are the target demographic, irrespective of outliers - wish to essentially role-play a tutor-pupil relationship with a schoolgirl? Where does Summer Lesson sit relative to outright eroticism and fetishism? One assumes most people into more explicit content won't necessarily be drawn to this, but I've no way of actually knowing that.

(I've already brought up another issue which needs addressing re Summer Lesson; translations. I can guess at the kind of typically bland, submissive, 'approving'/affirming dialogue the character's coming out with, but actual context and translations are obviously very important)

Another area I said I'd like to learn more of is Japanese feminism. Given I don't directly interact with Japanese society in any way, my own perspective's ultimately pretty meaningless (my own cultural doorstep is what effectively matters), hence why I'd like to know how various stripes of feminists view 'vanilla' M/F relationship games like this, as well as the fetishism of pupils/school eras prevalent in so much of their pop-culture. From the little I know, they have bigger fish to fry, but their various perspectives would still be interesting.

 

[wulf3n]

I criticised/questioned the media itself

I'm not so convinced. I haven't seen anything resembling a criticism or question.

For example you don't ever explain why it's creepy. You appear to just assume everyone finds it naturally creepy and just doesn't want to admit it, with posts like:

I mean, jeese... All this after one person casually describing this game as creepy? Isn't that like saying the sky's blue on a sunny day?

And

But can you at least concede that from a Western perspective, content like this seems--- well, pick yer title; weird, creepy, bizarre, etc?

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Analysis, sure. Polemic antithesis such as the one expressed here is too biased to have much of any literary use. I actually like reading a lot of cultural analysis books about anime/otaku culture stuff, ones with a psychological or sociological basis. This is not it. To liken it to them is a disservice.

True, this is just a thread on a forum - it typically encourages one thing the most; reactions - and how people respond to something is still an important part of discourse, no matter how ostensibly ignorant. All knowledge and understanding comes from a point of ignorance and reaction. If you've read any of my other posts in this thread, then you'll already know I've made clear I'm very much an outsider with this subject (a lifelong affection and interest in certain Japanese filmmakers and Japanese history isn't very helpful, though Japan's very distinct history of erotica gives a little more context).

Critique from a place of understanding is welcome, what isn't is people calling your fun creepy cause they don't share your tastes and masking it under the mantle of critique to lend their opinions credibility.

...which is something I never did, as I've pointed out. This thread represents various parallel discussions/interactions along similar themes. Intentions or motives for posters can obviously shift.

But can you at least concede that from a Western perspective, content like this seems--- well, pick yer title; weird, creepy, bizarre, etc? My original point was just to assert that such a reaction's perfectly reasonable and frankly expected.

It is a lot easier to get information about something if you do not begin your investigation by badmouthing the people from whom the information will be generated in an accusatory tone.

I criticised/questioned the media itself - not the consumers, which is just as much a right of mine as it is for the creators to create it, and consumers to consume.

If it truly was your aim to conduct such a discussion...

Not originally, no. As I said above; I was only suggesting a broadly negative or puzzled/bewildered reaction to this kind of content shouldn't at all be surprising to anyone. People bridling at the mere hint of a challenge or opposed position on the game prompted more of a discussion.

...I firstly would question why in this topic when the title is already destructive enough towards that aim, as it makes people defensive.

They should be used to the reaction, though, given the understandable clash of cultures.

As for the title? It may reflect the author's own feelings, it may have been selected because it gets attention and facilitates clicks and discussion - or both (Steve may not even have selected the title, either).

Still, you could do it by undoing its harm and asking neutral questions, not nodding along in agreement as you expect the people in whose eye you just spit to be cooperative with you.

...if questioning or being critical of such content is too much for fans/consumers to handle, then I'd suggest they're a tad over-sensitive or are over-identifying with/through the stuff they consume.

So, questions, then - let's see how well you can inform me: what age group might mostly buy a product like Summer Lesson? And if the age group is closer to the girl's age bracket, or older, what could that mean? And why, fundamentally would someone - I'm assuming males are the target demographic, irrespective of outliers - wish to essentially role-play a tutor-pupil relationship with a schoolgirl? Where does Summer Lesson sit relative to outright eroticism and fetishism? One assumes most people into more explicit content won't necessarily be drawn to this, but I've no way of actually knowing that.

(I've already brought up another issue which needs addressing re Summer Lesson; translations. I can guess at the kind of typically bland, submissive, 'approving'/affirming dialogue the character's coming out with, but actual context and translations are obviously very important)

Another area I said I'd like to learn more of is Japanese feminism. Given I don't directly interact with Japanese society in any way, my own perspective's ultimately pretty meaningless (my own cultural doorstep is what effectively matters), hence why I'd like to know how various stripes of feminists view 'vanilla' M/F relationship games like this, as well as the fetishism of pupils/school eras prevalent in so much of their pop-culture. From the little I know, they have bigger fish to fry, but their various perspectives would still be interesting.

I'll tackle the questions for brevity's sake, no need for back and forthing when useful stuff can be said .

The age group would be people with enough cash for a ps4 and vr, so lets say 16-45 or so, mostly in the 20s range. The age of the fan makes no differnce as the schoolgirl is the universal sex symbol in all age groups in Japan. Its like askin me what it means that this or that group likes women with thin waists and big breasts in America. It's just what gets them hard. Tastes, opinions, that stuff.

One would wish to roleplay because it is fun. Some may get a cramp tryjng to angle their vr helm to look up her skirt, others will just try to be super helpful, most will be somewhere in the middle. A lot of crossover with fans of games like love plus is likely. It is less about eroticism and more about living the ideal fantasy of dating that one super hot girl from highschool that you had no chance for. The teacher studet angle is honestly negligible because the way she looks is in lack of a better way to put it, as old as they'll ever look. She doesn't look like it would illicit the same kind of forbidden feeling that dating underage girls would, as she is of age in Japan and doesn't use childish mannerisms or anything really that separates her from your average grown female character image.

From the little I've seen she is just friendly and genki (japanese for a type of energetic positivity)in her speech, not much chance to affirm or not was present.

 

[hentropy]

Thread-Long Snip

I think the initial issue being deconstructed is our gut reactions to stuff like this in the west. No one thinks that a 25 year old playing Doom is creepy, but this is? If I play Doom for hours because I love how the demon monster blood splatters and bodies explode on my 2k screen, why does that not garner the same reaction? Is that creepy? Would you expect to see it labeled as creepy on a gaming website?

If you can try to deconstruct this game for any number of reasons, surely I or anyone else can deconstruct why you feel that way. It's the meta-narrative, you could say, not just a red herring or non-sequitur.

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

I'm not so convinced. I haven't seen anything resembling a criticism or question.

Maybe reading some of my other posts in this thread would help.

For example you don't ever explain why it's creepy.

You want me to explain why a culture idolising/romanticising schoolgirls is potentially questionable? That wouldn't be a bit of a universal concern? I'd say at the very least it qualifies a raised eyebrow and 'that's a bit weird/creepy' remark/response.

I think the initial issue being deconstructed is our gut reactions to stuff like this in the west. No one thinks that a 25 year old playing Doom is creepy, but this is? If I play Doom for hours because I love how the demon monster blood splatters and bodies explode on my 2k screen, why does that not garner the same reaction? Is that creepy? Would you expect to see it labeled as creepy on a gaming website?

You're genuinely directly comparing a space marine running around on Mars/in hell blowing away demons with mini-guns, chainsaws and plasma weapons to an ostensibly realistic depiction of a 'friendship'/bond/leer-fest between a schoolgirl and a tutor? And wondering why some people might have wildly different reactions?

I mean, fair point, I suppose; as well as all the 'all of the famous TV hosts in the '70's and '80's were apparently child abusers and our patriarchal society has been endemically prone to abusive social dynamics'-fallout the UK's been dealing with over the past few years, there were those revelations about space marines invading hell dimensions willy-nilly. I feel formal inquests should be held and heads must [figuratively] roll...

That aside - as I've already said several times - I have no issue questioning the depictions of violence in Western games. To be specific; I didn't buy or play GTAV because I objected to its tone (Rockstar North no longer seem to do parody or satire; they merely crassly point and wallow in a kind of nihilistic smarm), I don't buy Assassin's Creed games because I find the glorification of brutal, senseless murder at the hands of psychologically Teflon nutjobs incredibly disturbing (thankfully, that IP's soulless shite so I'm not missing much. I can run to map markers all I want in all kinds of other games), and to go back a few years I found the opening sequence of the first Uncharted unsettling (smarm to casual slaughter of NPC's 'it's okay to end their lives because they're in a videogame - trust us! you're the goodguy and nothing affects you! kinda making you a complete sociopath!' in 3, 2, 1... ).

I rate Spec Ops The Line so highly largely because I see it as a savage attack on the commodification of consequence free pop-violence in our society. As, I'm fairly sure, the lead writer remarked; it's not violence itself that's the issue - it's our response/non-response to it that's alarming.

So, in answer to your question; no, I don't see much reaction to violence in our media - and I see that as a problem. The depiction and context of violence can and should be questioned. Just as the depiction and context of 'relationship' or erotica games can and should be questioned.

If you can try to deconstruct this game for any number of reasons, surely I or anyone else can deconstruct why you feel that way. It's the meta-narrative, you could say, not just a red herring or non-sequitur.

Unproductive literal/context-less equivalences certainly are non-sequiturs, but looking at why certain reactions are provoked clearly isn't - again, something I've touched on in other posts.

To me, two key--- well, issues/questions are raised by this. Firstly, there's the problem of being a cultural 'outsider' looking at another culture - though that isn't, as I previously said, solely just an inherent negative (outsiders, being removed from social norms and memes, have a perspective those native or those immersed in it perhaps do not). Secondly, whether or not the game itself reflects questionable things about the culture and society that spawned it.

I quote Bogos on his recently uploaded preview:

But then the creepiness creeps back in. When Hikari talks to you, her breasts are exactly at eye-level, and she puffs her chest out quite a bit. At one point she bends over right next to you to pick up a pencil, giving you clear view of her panties. It really made me feel uncomfortable having her so close to me, especially when you consider the assumption that this is a high-school aged girl and an adult tutor.

I loved, and hated, Summer Lesson. It was an amazing demonstration of the technology, it didn't make me nauseous like most of the other PlayStation VR demos, and got me excited about VR. But the subject matter is just so unnerving, and from Bandai's promised future content, it really makes it seem like the object of the game will be forming a romantic relationship with your student.

To some, that the 'game' represents mere vanilla on Japan's fetishistic/objectifying spectrum is a positive, justifying factor, meaning no criticism or questions are allowed to be leveled. I, however, see it as potentially indicative of fundamental issues, i.e. if this is normalised and accepted, what does that tell us about how they view gender dynamics, age gaps, and women/girls in general.

Is it unfair to call Japan a, predominantly, very patriarchal, masculinist nation? Historically, it always has been. It's hard to look into the state of feminism in Japan for someone bound to English searches and sites, but from what I can gather it certainly seems feminism faces an uphill battle. As with all nations and cultures, there are unique issues to be exposed and dealt with, so I'd guess pervy schoolgirl games wouldn't be a priority at all. I find it hard to believe they wouldn't have issues with the way girls are so often depicted, however.

The age group would be people with enough cash for a ps4 and vr, so lets say 16-45 or so, mostly in the 20s range. The age of the fan makes no differnce as the schoolgirl is the universal sex symbol in all age groups in Japan. Its like askin me what it means that this or that group likes women with thin waists and big breasts in America. It's just what gets them hard. Tastes, opinions, that stuff.

Yeah, and I find the West's beauty norms and ways of objectifying women pretty skewed to say the least as well, so I'm critical of my own culture on that count.

And "the schoolgirl is the universal sex symbol in all age groups"? Really? First, I find that hard to believe, and secondly, I find it impossible to understand how that is seen as a justification or defence, and not a damning verdict of their 'norms'.

It is less about eroticism and more about living the ideal fantasy of dating that one super hot girl from highschool that you had no chance for. The teacher studet angle is honestly negligible because the way she looks is in lack of a better way to put it, as old as they'll ever look.

I'm baffled that you don't see the teacher/pupil context as important.

Using context and the apparent teasing and upskirt glimpses the game utilizes, apparently the "ideal [straight male] fantasy" is of being a man in a position of trust and responsibility, perving at vulnerable girls. Again; this being considered vanilla surely isn't an encouraging sign.

From the little I've seen she is just friendly and genki (japanese for a type of energetic positivity)in her speech, not much chance to affirm or not was present.

Affirm, as in pander to the player - offer up no realistic behavioural nuance or identity, merely be a tropey vessel to go through the fawning motions.

(then again, that is a basic, harmless cultural difference I personally dislike; Japan's relatively obsessive affection and use of tropes and reductive types as opposed to actual characters)

OT: It's pretty pathetic and disappointing that people are being taken to task for considering a game where you perv on an underage girl creepy.

Does that reflect worse on Japanese culture, or gamer culture in our neck of the woods, I wonder?

And an apparent caveat for Summer Lesson is that the girl's supposed to be of-age by Japanese standards. Even so, the tutor-pupil dynamic makes it disturbing, unless fantasies of abusing trust and a position of responsibility are also a social norm.