Critical Miss: Riotous Anger

[Custard_Angel]

Its this kind of situation that has me questioning the value of freedom. Dont get me wrong, its something that i have always seen as an essential human right, but then again it also allows scumbags to start shit like what happened in London. Talk about a double edged sword.

Not really. People just need to learn that there is a time and a place for police brutality. Large scale riots like the one in London are most definatly the correct time and place. You would not believe how fast a riot will stop when you start firing tear gas at them then move in to beat the crap out of everybody with clubs.

Sure is China in here...

 

[Lancer873]

"Ralph wept for the end of innocence, the darkness of man's heart, and the fall through the air of the true, wise friend called Piggy."
- William Golding, Lord of the Flies, final line... I don't think it's been this relevant in ages.

 

[JoJo]

When you break it all down, the only reason this crap is actually happening is one very simple answer.

People suck.

No that's wrong, just a few people suck and ruin it for everyone else. Don't tar us all with the same brush because of the actions of a few idiots, there are about 9 million people in London and just a few thousand rioters in total.

No. People suck. They just suck in different ways. Only some of them riot violently. Others are greedy, hateful, envious or downright ignorant in various other ways. Most are simply apathetic and myopic until things go wrong, and then they swing to the opposite side of the spectrum and become reactionary.

Really? So the person who dedicates much of their life to running a charity for sick children "sucks"? Or the person who takes someone-elses place to die in a concentration camp "sucks"? The person who protests against oppressive regimes at risk to their own life "suck"?

Sure, some people are bad, some are good. That's life and when you grow up a bit more you will realise the benefits of looking on the bright side of life

Umm... you should realize that: A) I was largely using hyperbole for the sake of humor, B) refusal to criticize average people doesn't help them, C) there's always room for improvement and even self sacrificing people are probably flawed in other ways, and D) the self sacrificing examples you just cited would have to be .01% of the population so they're really the exception that proves the rule.

Read some Nietzsche. He's a perfect example of how you can be a harsh social critic and still look on the bright side of life.

Same as I told the other guy, nothing is perfect, that doesn't mean that it sucks though, which is generally used to mean something is overall negative. If you don't mean that, use a different phase next time.

No, as a rule humanity does kinda suck. It's not entirely bad, but it isn't good either. There's a lot of room for improvement. The only acceptable form of optimism is the optimism that takes pleasure in the struggle for self-overcoming. It is an optimism for what we can become, not about what we already are. Everything else is stagnation and wretched contentment.

Sources please. Any evidence that badness isn't limited to a minority of assholes such as the rioters?

You're construing "badness" far too narrowly. Under "badness" I would not only include violent behaviors but also greed, self centered-ness, a lack of critical thinking and a general disposition to uphold the consumption of goods as a more worthy life-goal than acts of intellectual, artistic or physical creation. These are crimes of which the vast majority of mankind is guilty.

Then I'm afraid we must agree to disagree as I will never accept the "lack of critical thinking" as a crime or badness. People should be allowed to do as they wish as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others, so if they wish to consume rather than create then who are we to stop them?

 

[Woodsey]

As someone who lives in London, who took part in the street clean-up afterwards and had a few favourite local shops absolutely wrecked I have to say: a lot of you people are talking absolute shite.

I would clarify more, but I don't feel like internet arguing, to be honest.

Sooo... do you think it is because people are angry or just because they're a bunch of retards?

Im gonna do what I can to keep this post even tempered, but Im raging quite substantially at that comic.
I still cannot get my head around this notion that people have that riots start out of nowhere, the areas that riots started in are the poorest areas of the country, areas made poorer by the actions and policies of Mr David Cameron- these people where pushed and pushed ot the very edge where they snapped.
So yeah blame the rioters and looters for acting like animals, but dont for one fucking second make out that the blame lands solely with them.

Read the bit under it. Fleshes out his argument, but I agree with the overall sentiment of the comic.

A murderer could kill someone because of societal pressures, poverty, anger at the government, anything. But that doesn't excuse him from the fact that he murdered someone.

But the main thing I'm annoyed about to do with the riots? The fact that they're trying to introduce curfews. They won't affect me personally, but the whole idea of them is just outrageous.

I agree, they're now knee-jerking-off completely in their reactions. First we got the good old "moral degradation" argument (as opposed to what? The heinous amounts of racism, homophobia and sexism in previous decades?), now all the stupid new rules.

National service-esque stuff for all 16-year-olds is another one. A surprisingly large number of the rioters weren't even the people they're completely blaming. Ages of those arrested reportedly ran wildly between those in their late teens to those in their 40s, and across a huge number of professions.

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

When you break it all down, the only reason this crap is actually happening is one very simple answer.

People suck.

No that's wrong, just a few people suck and ruin it for everyone else. Don't tar us all with the same brush because of the actions of a few idiots, there are about 9 million people in London and just a few thousand rioters in total.

No. People suck. They just suck in different ways. Only some of them riot violently. Others are greedy, hateful, envious or downright ignorant in various other ways. Most are simply apathetic and myopic until things go wrong, and then they swing to the opposite side of the spectrum and become reactionary.

Really? So the person who dedicates much of their life to running a charity for sick children "sucks"? Or the person who takes someone-elses place to die in a concentration camp "sucks"? The person who protests against oppressive regimes at risk to their own life "suck"?

Sure, some people are bad, some are good. That's life and when you grow up a bit more you will realise the benefits of looking on the bright side of life

Umm... you should realize that: A) I was largely using hyperbole for the sake of humor, B) refusal to criticize average people doesn't help them, C) there's always room for improvement and even self sacrificing people are probably flawed in other ways, and D) the self sacrificing examples you just cited would have to be .01% of the population so they're really the exception that proves the rule.

Read some Nietzsche. He's a perfect example of how you can be a harsh social critic and still look on the bright side of life.

Same as I told the other guy, nothing is perfect, that doesn't mean that it sucks though, which is generally used to mean something is overall negative. If you don't mean that, use a different phase next time.

No, as a rule humanity does kinda suck. It's not entirely bad, but it isn't good either. There's a lot of room for improvement. The only acceptable form of optimism is the optimism that takes pleasure in the struggle for self-overcoming. It is an optimism for what we can become, not about what we already are. Everything else is stagnation and wretched contentment.

Sources please. Any evidence that badness isn't limited to a minority of assholes such as the rioters?

You're construing "badness" far too narrowly. Under "badness" I would not only include violent behaviors but also greed, self centered-ness, a lack of critical thinking and a general disposition to uphold the consumption of goods as a more worthy life-goal than acts of intellectual, artistic or physical creation. These are crimes of which the vast majority of mankind is guilty.

Then I'm afraid we must agree to disagree as I will never accept the "lack of critical thinking" as a crime or badness. People should be allowed to do as they wish as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others, so if they wish to consume rather than create then who are we to stop them?

I'm not a moral realist, values come down to individual will as far as I see it. So agreeing to disagree is perfectly reasonable. However, I will leave you with this thought: the holocaust couldn't have been perpetrated by a few individuals alone, no matter how bloodthirsty they were. The necessary conditions for the holocaust also included the lack of critical thinking and the downright willful ignorance of the German people. A lesser evil than those who ran the gas chambers to be sure, but still an evil by any reasonable account.

Even deontology, which ignores virtues and vices and merely judges people by their actions, requires that people be rational agents. How could someone possibly be considered a rational agent if they lack an ability to think critically?

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

I won't lie, the dress and the Mega Man choker are kinda hot. Though I see poor Erin is still trying to get past that stutter.

But having a march to the police station with a large crowd of people is NOT a smart thing to do.

No, I'd say that's the best thing to do- an organized peaceful protest in front of the police to display anger at the shooting. The problem is that a bunch of mental reprobates decided "Hey, this is a great time to steal anything I can lift, burn everything else and beat innocent people to death".

I'm entirely comfortable with blaming them. Displaying your dissatisfaction with the authorities does not require you to murder an elderly accountant or run over immigrant businessmen trying to protect their property.

 

[JoJo]

When you break it all down, the only reason this crap is actually happening is one very simple answer.

People suck.

No that's wrong, just a few people suck and ruin it for everyone else. Don't tar us all with the same brush because of the actions of a few idiots, there are about 9 million people in London and just a few thousand rioters in total.

No. People suck. They just suck in different ways. Only some of them riot violently. Others are greedy, hateful, envious or downright ignorant in various other ways. Most are simply apathetic and myopic until things go wrong, and then they swing to the opposite side of the spectrum and become reactionary.

Really? So the person who dedicates much of their life to running a charity for sick children "sucks"? Or the person who takes someone-elses place to die in a concentration camp "sucks"? The person who protests against oppressive regimes at risk to their own life "suck"?

Sure, some people are bad, some are good. That's life and when you grow up a bit more you will realise the benefits of looking on the bright side of life

Umm... you should realize that: A) I was largely using hyperbole for the sake of humor, B) refusal to criticize average people doesn't help them, C) there's always room for improvement and even self sacrificing people are probably flawed in other ways, and D) the self sacrificing examples you just cited would have to be .01% of the population so they're really the exception that proves the rule.

Read some Nietzsche. He's a perfect example of how you can be a harsh social critic and still look on the bright side of life.

Same as I told the other guy, nothing is perfect, that doesn't mean that it sucks though, which is generally used to mean something is overall negative. If you don't mean that, use a different phase next time.

No, as a rule humanity does kinda suck. It's not entirely bad, but it isn't good either. There's a lot of room for improvement. The only acceptable form of optimism is the optimism that takes pleasure in the struggle for self-overcoming. It is an optimism for what we can become, not about what we already are. Everything else is stagnation and wretched contentment.

Sources please. Any evidence that badness isn't limited to a minority of assholes such as the rioters?

You're construing "badness" far too narrowly. Under "badness" I would not only include violent behaviors but also greed, self centered-ness, a lack of critical thinking and a general disposition to uphold the consumption of goods as a more worthy life-goal than acts of intellectual, artistic or physical creation. These are crimes of which the vast majority of mankind is guilty.

Then I'm afraid we must agree to disagree as I will never accept the "lack of critical thinking" as a crime or badness. People should be allowed to do as they wish as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others, so if they wish to consume rather than create then who are we to stop them?

I'm not a moral realist, values come down to individual will as far as I see it. So agreeing to disagree is perfectly reasonable. However, I will leave you with this thought: the holocaust couldn't have been perpetrated by a few individuals alone, no matter how bloodthirsty they were. The necessary conditions for the holocaust also included the lack of critical thinking and the downright willful ignorance of the German people. A lesser evil than those who ran the gas chambers to be sure, but still an evil by any reasonable account.

Even deontology, which ignores virtues and vices and merely judges people by their actions, requires that people be rational agents. How could someone possibly be considered a rational agent if they lack an ability to think critically?

The holocaust happened because of a minority of haters and evil people, it's a sad fact that certain times these people will emerge from the cesspool to commit attrocitys. I've met a number of people online and even a couple in real life who I believe could we become capable of that if put in the right circustance. Remember though the Nazi's were a repressive regime who oppressed those who opposed them so you can't blame people for willfully ignoring atrocities for fear of their own life, you and me would very likely act the same way.

Also, no person is a rational agent, that's just silly. Everyone is molded to some degree by their environment and peers, no-one is free from bias. Anyone who believes they are entirely rational is a class A fool.

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

When you break it all down, the only reason this crap is actually happening is one very simple answer.

People suck.

No that's wrong, just a few people suck and ruin it for everyone else. Don't tar us all with the same brush because of the actions of a few idiots, there are about 9 million people in London and just a few thousand rioters in total.

No. People suck. They just suck in different ways. Only some of them riot violently. Others are greedy, hateful, envious or downright ignorant in various other ways. Most are simply apathetic and myopic until things go wrong, and then they swing to the opposite side of the spectrum and become reactionary.

Really? So the person who dedicates much of their life to running a charity for sick children "sucks"? Or the person who takes someone-elses place to die in a concentration camp "sucks"? The person who protests against oppressive regimes at risk to their own life "suck"?

Sure, some people are bad, some are good. That's life and when you grow up a bit more you will realise the benefits of looking on the bright side of life

Umm... you should realize that: A) I was largely using hyperbole for the sake of humor, B) refusal to criticize average people doesn't help them, C) there's always room for improvement and even self sacrificing people are probably flawed in other ways, and D) the self sacrificing examples you just cited would have to be .01% of the population so they're really the exception that proves the rule.

Read some Nietzsche. He's a perfect example of how you can be a harsh social critic and still look on the bright side of life.

Same as I told the other guy, nothing is perfect, that doesn't mean that it sucks though, which is generally used to mean something is overall negative. If you don't mean that, use a different phase next time.

No, as a rule humanity does kinda suck. It's not entirely bad, but it isn't good either. There's a lot of room for improvement. The only acceptable form of optimism is the optimism that takes pleasure in the struggle for self-overcoming. It is an optimism for what we can become, not about what we already are. Everything else is stagnation and wretched contentment.

Sources please. Any evidence that badness isn't limited to a minority of assholes such as the rioters?

You're construing "badness" far too narrowly. Under "badness" I would not only include violent behaviors but also greed, self centered-ness, a lack of critical thinking and a general disposition to uphold the consumption of goods as a more worthy life-goal than acts of intellectual, artistic or physical creation. These are crimes of which the vast majority of mankind is guilty.

Then I'm afraid we must agree to disagree as I will never accept the "lack of critical thinking" as a crime or badness. People should be allowed to do as they wish as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others, so if they wish to consume rather than create then who are we to stop them?

I'm not a moral realist, values come down to individual will as far as I see it. So agreeing to disagree is perfectly reasonable. However, I will leave you with this thought: the holocaust couldn't have been perpetrated by a few individuals alone, no matter how bloodthirsty they were. The necessary conditions for the holocaust also included the lack of critical thinking and the downright willful ignorance of the German people. A lesser evil than those who ran the gas chambers to be sure, but still an evil by any reasonable account.

Even deontology, which ignores virtues and vices and merely judges people by their actions, requires that people be rational agents. How could someone possibly be considered a rational agent if they lack an ability to think critically?

The holocaust happened because of a minority of haters and evil people, it's a sad fact that certain times these people will emerge from the cesspool to commit attrocitys. I've met a number of people online and even a couple in real life who I believe could we become capable of that if put in the right circustance. Remember though the Nazi's were a repressive regime who oppressed those who opposed them so you can't blame people for willfully ignoring atrocities for fear of their own life, you and me would very likely act the same way.

Also, no person is a rational agent, that's just silly. Everyone is molded to some degree by their environment and peers, no-one is free from bias. Anyone who believes they are entirely rational is a class A fool.

You seem to be implying that a person is bad if they are driven by hatred. Critical thinking is directly tied to this. If one responds emotionally to an argument without analyzing it then one can easily be driven to extremes. While I of course agree that no one is a completely rational agent, it doesn't mean that there aren't different levels of rationality. A person who is incapable or unwilling to analyze claims for truth or falsehood has a very limited agency. While it is true that the basis for action ultimately resides at an emotional level, we also need the rational ability to analyze a situation and act so that we bring about what we desire.

While it is true that the Nazis rose to power partially due to violence and intimidation, it would be impossible for them to do so solely by those means. It is quite daft to think that the entire country assented to Nazi rule out of fear, even though that may have been the case at the very end after they had already come to power. The Nazis and their philosophy had the won the support of many ordinary people because of the spectacles they put on and their incredibly effective use of propaganda, both of which rely upon a lack of critical thinking.

Furthermore, someone who is unaccustomed to thinking critically and derives most of their views from faith and indoctrination is much more likely to respond to criticism with fanaticism rather than rational argument. If you value rational argument and understanding as a source of conflict resolution rather than violence, then you must admit the indispensability of critical thinking. How can a person be 'good' if they are incapable of adopting and entertaining opposing views and accepting that they might be wrong? Being a bigoted self-righteous ass and lacking critical thinking go hand-in-hand. Surely your definition of a 'good person' precludes application to such people?

 

[Saltyk]

See that people? That's what we call logic. Blame the guy acting like an asshole for acting like an asshole. Why don't more people do this?

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

See that people? That's what we call logic. Blame the guy acting like an asshole for acting like an asshole. Why don't more people do this?

Well, if you just treat it as a bunch of people acting out for no reason then you aren't going to know how to prevent it from happening again. Sure, probably the majority of the rioters are just in it for loot and chaos, but one needs to suss out why it erupted in the first place so that one can fix the situation. Treating the rioters as mindless beasts that just need to be constrained is just as stupid as saying that they were completely controlled by external forces and had no choice in the matter.

 

[Saltyk]

See that people? That's what we call logic. Blame the guy acting like an asshole for acting like an asshole. Why don't more people do this?

Well, if you just treat it as a bunch of people acting out for no reason then you aren't going to know how to prevent it from happening again. Sure, probably the majority of the rioters are just in it for loot and chaos, but one needs to suss out why it erupted in the first place so that one can fix the situation. Treating the rioters as mindless beasts that just need to be constrained is just as stupid as saying that they were completely controlled by external forces and had no choice in the matter.

I'm just saying we blame the people themselves for their own actions. Don't let them shirk their responsibility behind some scapegoat. Finding the root of the problem is fine. But don't let that excuse their actions. Let it explain their actions, but not excuse it. Blame the people who took place in the riot for the riot.

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

Damn straight, and the rioters seem so thrilled and happy too. Having a (wrecking) ball.

 

[Alar]

One would think that, if they were really pissed at the government and the police and the like, they would ONLY BE ATTACKING GOVERNMENT INSTITUTIONS AND POLICE STATIONS. But, ya know, I could be wrong.

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

See that people? That's what we call logic. Blame the guy acting like an asshole for acting like an asshole. Why don't more people do this?

Well, if you just treat it as a bunch of people acting out for no reason then you aren't going to know how to prevent it from happening again. Sure, probably the majority of the rioters are just in it for loot and chaos, but one needs to suss out why it erupted in the first place so that one can fix the situation. Treating the rioters as mindless beasts that just need to be constrained is just as stupid as saying that they were completely controlled by external forces and had no choice in the matter.

I'm just saying we blame the people themselves for their own actions. Don't let them shirk their responsibility behind some scapegoat. Finding the root of the problem is fine. But don't let that excuse their actions. Let it explain their actions, but not excuse it. Blame the people who took place in the riot for the riot.

Yeah, I know, I was just explaining why there was a debate in the first place. They should obviously be held accountable, but it's also perfectly fine to ask why they did it. So I think we're in agreement.

 

[Andy of Comix Inc]

Palpatine's behind it all.

 

[ThaBenMan]

Erin's looking pretty hawt with the lil' red dress there

The riots are pretty crazy, people just need to chill the eff out

 

[Shadow-Phoenix]

However - there have been dozens of peaceful protests in this country that have accomplished nothing. I know because I've taken part in a few. We're not even getting listened to. This anger has been simmering for a long time - riots were inevitable. I just wish they'd taken the chance to hit the government rather than the local Asda.

Because it was MY local Asda damnit. That's where I do my booze shopping.

I'm also thinking that since a lot of the riotters were younger people (13-14 or so) a lot of them simply wouldn't know how to target the government. All they could do was lash out blindly.

Is this making sense? I don't know. Kind of suffering one of the worst bouts of writer's block of my life and I'm not nearly as coherent as I would like to be.

There's the problem though staging peaceful protest's never really get heard most of the time or are have fallen on deaf ears entirely and then there's the riots which make them look like unorganized animals and even then there is no middle ground on which to protest from since going straight for your government is technically treason plus you think the government will even let the riots take a crack at them, no they won't they will call out the police and point the finger on those heading towards them because the government does not see any wrong it has ever committed such as the spending cuts and the high fees for Uni the government believes it's in the right when in actuality it's not because clearly it has upset the students and also cut out some people who may have wanted higher education but cannot afford it.

Either way you look at it, it's a mess when you have a government that's quick to point fingers in every direction and then you have the harsh unwarranted punishments coming in such as Mt Cameron's decision to have rioter's families evicted from their housing and by that logic of his he's forcing people not directly involved in the actual riot out of their homes and desires to make it harder for them to live anywhere else in the country because he believes they deserve harsher punishment when doing that it then again forces those people into yet another tight corner where civil unrest will begin all over again and the cycle will repeat itself because the government couldn't sit the fuck down and think straight without the use of pointing fingers to avoid their own mistakes.

I believe the rioter's should be punished because of what they did but the government should take heed of what has happened and come to realise what they have been doing over the past few decades has been sending them in the complete opposite of "being there for the people".

Also i'd like to point out as a last note that if you go back quite a few hundred steps money is the problem for all that's happening around the world including the riots because of the 3 classes there is always civil unrest within communities that are richer than the other while the lowest community suffers even more at the expense of cuts and loss of benefits.

 

[Grahav]

"Oh how my life sucks for not having a big TV!"

Go to Somalia to see what poverty is; fuckers!

 

[Calbeck]

*clap clap clap*

 

[Skeleon]

Huh? Of course do the people who commit violence and vandalism bear responsibility. But they don't bear sole responsibility. What drove people into the streets originally? What are the underlying issues? What are the problems at hand? Just because there may be explanations for their behaviour doesn't mean that they would be excuses for it. Let's not simply point at the rioters and say they are the problem. They are a problem, but they are not how this all started.