D&D 3.5 vs 4.0

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Versuvius

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Everything i think has more or less been expressed. 3.5 is the better beast, 4ed is 'accessible' much like WoW is 'accessible'. I abhor 4ed. But thats because i just think its crap. Classes are cookie cutter, the whole daily/at will/encounter thing dominating spells (and fighters with essentially melee spells) rubs me the wrong way.
 

the7ofswords

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I wrote a brief rant about the whole thing back in 2008, shortly after 4th Ed. was released.

I'll just do a summary (Or you can read the whole thing here: http://the7ofswords.livejournal.com/ ):

History first: I've been an off and on Dungeons & Dragons player since 1981. I quickly jumped to AD&D. I really loved the Second Edition, too. It felt like a framework which a DM (and players) with a little imagination and ingenuity could use to build up any kind of fantasy story they desired and make the rules fit. I was a little apprehensive about 3rd Edition, but after my friends and I played it, we really enjoyed it, and we all switched permanently.

Eventually my regular gaming group sort of fell apart - how are you gonna pull people away from the ease of playing World of Warcraft, and get them around a table to play a game? (I'm sure this question was probably the guiding principle in 4th Edition's design.)

Upon first hearing about 4E, I was a little cautious. But I was also more than a little hopeful. After all, I had thought 3rd Edition was probably unnecessary, but I went into it with an open mind and was pleasantly surprised. I even found myself preferring it. Couldn't the same thing happen again? I planned to do as I had with 3rd Edition: buy a Player's Handbook first, and if I liked what I read, pick up the other books and maybe try to get some of my old group back together and give it a whirl.

So ... I guess the first thing is how "dumbed-down" it is - the way video games often are. Video games have to be dumbed down to accommodate the lack of real intelligence behind them. They have to be run by AI, which is just a bunch of mathematics that run different equations based on the players' input. The whole point of a table-top game is that you have a real, live, thinking person who will make intelligent decisions for the NPCs and/or monsters in any given situation.

Concepts like threat and aggro from the realm of MMORPGs represent the outcome of formulae that work behind-the-scenes in order for creatures in a MMORPG to react within some set of pre-defined parameters. This is what allows your main "Tank" to use specific abitlities that increase her threat to any given mob, so it will attack her, instead of the poor cloth-wearing mage who is doing a lot more damage. It's these behind-the-scenes formulae that determine the reactions - and it's these same formulae that players have learned to game in order to succeed. That's why it's vitally important, especially when going into an instance, to have a good tank (and a good healer) - you have to game the systemic formulae in order to make the monsters play to your strategy.

But, see ... this is a WEAKNESS in the video game world - one which developers are either constantly struggling to overcome, and make as transparent as possible, or which, in the case of WoW, they use as a tool in building abilities and classes within the game. Players are going to figure these things out anyway, so why not just make it part and parcel of the whole MMORPG experience? This is one of the things that annoys me about WoW - but it's something I can accept, considering the limitations of the medium.

So why, in the name of all that is good and right in the universe, would the developers of a table-top RPG take the biggest weakness of MMORPGs and incorporate it into their game? 4E is chock FULL of this kind of malarkey. They've even gone so far as to give each class a "role" to fill in combat ... Strikers=dps, Controllers=Crowd-Control, Defender=Tank, Leader=Healer. These aren't necessarily EXACT cognates, but they're pretty close. The new combat rules are pretty much ALL about managing aggro and threat zones - a concept which really shouldn't even EXIST in this setting! So, what - now the DM is supposed to pretend to be a computer AI?

Using dice to get your character's stats is so strongly discouraged? Again, I have to compare this with video games. It makes sense in a video game - especially in an MMORPG, or any game with an on-line component, that you want to level the playing field to a certain degree. This evening-out of the playing field was traditionally handled by a DM, but again, the lack of a human DM is the big obstacle to overcome in a computer game. So we use point-buy systems, or some such thing. But what's the point, again, of taking a system that is primarily a response to a weakness in one system, and moving it to a system that does not share this weakness? If a DM is afraid her players will cheat on stat rolls, all she has to do is make them roll their stats in front of her! Problem solved ... and, more importantly, UNIQUENESS of CHARACTER is maintained! With the systems that 4th Ed. presents and encourages, almost all Elven Wizards are going to have the same (or VERY close) stats! As will all Dwarven Paladins, or Tiefling Rogues, or whatever ...

Whatever happened to the DEX-based fighter who could dish out damage like no one else? Doesn't exist anymore. A Fighter is a Tank is a Fighter is a Tank, with only a few possible modifications. Trying to build a truly creative, unique character in 4E is nearly impossible - character creation feels as cold and impersonal as in WoW. Sadly, even the Neverwinter Nights character generation felt more organic. The beauty of D&D (or any table-top system) was that you could create and play something new and different - you weren't just playing another cookie-cutter hero (or anti-hero, or even villain).

What a framework rules set for an RPG should NOT do (unless it's set up for a specific milieu) is tell us what kind of world we're in. That's what campaign settings are for! "Points of Light in the Great Darkness" or whatever, is great for a specific setting ... but doesn't belong in the basic framework.

They also screwed up Alignment: there's no such thing as Chaotic Good (for example). So a person of my own personal moral persuasion can't exist in the D&D world. And no Lawful Evil? (I guess there are no Dick Cheney's in D&D either ... so maybe it's a fair trade.) I can forgive Unaligned, I suppose ... but in a sense, that's more of a Chaotic Neutral sentiment, a "who gives a crap about all this morality anyway" attitude, that actually is, in itself, a moral stand. Now, I was never a huge fan of the old alignment restrictions, except in specific cases, so I never used alignment languages or any of that - but I DID ask players to choose an alignment - not to punish or control their actions, but as a Role-Playing device.

Remember role-playing? Ostensibly, that's what the "RP" in "RPG (and even "MMORPG") stands for. But MMORPGs tend to break the mood of real RPing. There's too much "gaming the system" and meta-talk to ever really role-play. Even on RP-specific servers people are still talking about movies and shouting about selling their crap over the General channel and such - and discussing meta-game concepts. Again, this is a great weakness of the electronic versions of RPGs which should NOT be brought into a Table-Top realm.

I'm not saying that D&D 4E is anti-role-playing. Role-playing is something anyone can do with any game if one so chooses - though it's easier with some games than others. (Ever tried to behave like a millionaire real-estate developing shoe in Monopoly?) However all of the emphasis in the new PHB seems to be about combat and powers and "what can you do with your cookie-cutter hero character?" The "feel" of 4th Edition D&D is that of a specialized tactics game. Its emphasis is no longer on weaving together a story together - it's all about getting to the next Big Action Sequence.

I'm not saying D&D 4E is ALL bad, either. I just don't see this as D&D anymore. It's a small unit combat tactics game set in a medieval/fantasy setting, with video-game-type powers being used in Hollywood-Style Action Sequences.

I'm sure it'll be fun for what it is - and for the generation raised on XBox and MMORPGs, and movie versions of classic stories, I'm sure it will be a lot of fun. And if you enjoy it, good for you! I'm certainly not here to ruin anyone's good time.

But for me ... it's just not the same anymore. I dunno ... maybe I'm just getting old. Or I'm just old-fashioned. Whatever it is ...

YOU KIDS NEED TO GET OFF MY LAWN!!!
 

Echo Delta

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I have played both and I VERY much prefer 3.5. If I wanted to play something with 4.0 mechanics I would go play any video game in the genre. 3.5 may be a little, how to say, arbitrary, with conflicting rules and such, but the beauty in it is that it allows for a wider range of both in and out of combat gameplay and there's a wonderful thing called making your own house rules.

Play both, see which one you like better (if you have the opportunity to do so), but if you had to only go for one, go 3.5.
 

DRTJR

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I'd say neither are better.
4E has it's benefits and provides the DM with a F*** ton of possible tools at any given moment.
3.5 arms the players to the teath with abilities.
4E is an easy intro to DnD
3.5 isn't
4E is basically 4 classes with slightly different flair
3.5's classes are different if unbalanced
 

Skullpanda

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I've played both, and even some of the other, stranger games (Mutants and Masterminds, I'm looking at you...), and really, D&D 4.0 is D&D for people who haven't ever played a tabletop rpg before. It holds the player's hand a bit too much, and unless you house rule as a DM against experienced people, your players will rarely encounter too much of a challenge. 3.5 is less friendly on the entry for new people, but knowledge from there will generally transfer better. Truth be told, I would choose the system for the type of player you're going to have.

And if you want some real chaos, sit down for a M&M game. Especially when you do a villian campaign.
 

thethain

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You saw a ton of these arguments about 2.0 and 3.0 a while back.

I personally like 3, because it was what I learned first, and to me, it feels less like a video game. That said a lot of things in 4 are handled easier.

The biggest thing is there is the bringing of all classes together. Before a fighter basically was just an insane auto attacker, where only casters had interesting things. BUT after a caster's bag of tricks was spent, they basically were just a fleshbag target holding your party back. Where a fighter type could go full steam until their hp ran out.

Now all classes can choose how much resources they want to expend on a fight, and are never relegated to a complete liability.
 

Drake Barrow

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Most of my own thoughts on the matter have been posted previously. Both games are fun, both have their strengths and weaknesses.

Someone I know once referred to 4E as a 'gamist' setup (referring to the fact that it ignores most of the bits of world-building and logic in favor of streamlined game mechanics) versus 3.5 and Pathfinder as 'simulationist' (because they hearken back to the original Advanced Dungeons & Dragons by attempting to make a fully featured world). I'd agree with that assessment. If you want a full-featured world, go with Pathfinder (or 3.5). If you want an action oriented game, go with 4E.

Or, if you have the operating capital, pick up both and swap between them as the mood strikes you.
 

Saelune

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Mar 8, 2011
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Pfft, class balance. Its all about what you do. A good DM will make everyone balanced anyway if they want to.
My current campaign lacks a rogue. We had one before, but not now. I had traps when I had a rogue, but now there are few. (Aside from plot driving ones)
Since Im not trying to just kill my party and want to make a fun experience, I tailor things more to them and how they play.

Oh, Im pro 3.5 over 4. (LE forever!)
 

CM156_v1legacy

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Mar 23, 2011
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Roganzar said:
CM156 said:
I've done both. I actually DM a 3.5 ed Pre-spellplauge Forgotten Realms group.
Nice to know I'm not the only 3.5ed Forgotten Realms DM out there. Granted I've made modifications to my game with some of the spellplague stuff, and god deaths (following the Marvel/DC Comics rules of death, and didn't destroy Halruua).

OT: 3.5ed is what I think of now when talking D&D.
Fourth edition isn't a bad system, actually pretty good from what I've read. Never had a chance to play it myself. I just can't think of it as D&D, fantasy sure but not D&D. Just me.

Also, I've never meet anyone that couldn't get the hang of White Wolf's d10 system quickly. Still love that system.
Really? There's TWO of us! Hot damn!

I really object to what happened to Cyric after the Spellplauge. This asshole ruins everything, and insted of killing him and spliting up his portfolio so no one has Deception, Illusion, Intrigue, Lies, and Murder in their portfolio, they just place him under house arest. I also don't like that Tyr died. That was my biggest problem with 4.ed as a setting for FR.
 

2733

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3.5 has a better set of tools to play with, and each of the character classes feels more different which is my main gripe with 4.0. wizard, cleric, barbarian, or citizen with a steel pipe, they all more or less play the same. but it get's bonus points for good balance and wizards actually being playable before level 7 or so, and a hundred-million bonus points for getting rid of "chaotic good" or as my players call it the get out of jail free card.
 

Roganzar

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Jun 13, 2009
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CM156 said:
Roganzar said:
CM156 said:
I've done both. I actually DM a 3.5 ed Pre-spellplauge Forgotten Realms group.
Nice to know I'm not the only 3.5ed Forgotten Realms DM out there. Granted I've made modifications to my game with some of the spellplague stuff, and god deaths (following the Marvel/DC Comics rules of death, and didn't destroy Halruua).

OT: 3.5ed is what I think of now when talking D&D.
Fourth edition isn't a bad system, actually pretty good from what I've read. Never had a chance to play it myself. I just can't think of it as D&D, fantasy sure but not D&D. Just me.

Also, I've never meet anyone that couldn't get the hang of White Wolf's d10 system quickly. Still love that system.
Really? There's TWO of us! Hot damn!

I really object to what happened to Cyric after the Spellplauge. This asshole ruins everything, and insted of killing him and spliting up his portfolio so no one has Deception, Illusion, Intrigue, Lies, and Murder in their portfolio, they just place him under house arest. I also don't like that Tyr died. That was my biggest problem with 4.ed as a setting for FR.
That and killing off Mystra and Helm. Seriously, never take a job as the Goddess/God of Magic for Faerun, turn-over rate is appalling. Those two gods have ended up being quiet prevelent in my games so I couldn't let them die. So I've just got them under "Mostly Dead," thank you Miracle Max, and seriously injured with their returns forthcoming.
Additionally, (Fanboy Moment) Ao decreed that the Gods power is based around their followers and their worship the Gods can't really stay "Dead" for long. (End Fanboy Momment)

Also, we need to find the other 3.5ed Forgotten Realms DMs out there, if there are more, and gather them someplace safe. We seem to be nearly extinct.
 

Ap07h30515

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thehorror2 said:
Oh boy have you opened a can of volatile, flammable worms here.

They are for very different styles of game. 4th edition does heroic high fantasy (with dragons, greek-style gods, powerful special-fx magic, and flaming swords tossed out like party favors) really REALLY well. However, it doesn't do anything else very well, without significant houseruling. It is also the most newbie-friendly system I've run into. Every class is different in function, but similar in structure; if you know how to create a fighter, you can make a wizard just as easily, although they still FEEL like different classes. It does rip pages shamelessly from the WoW playbook, though, going for "this sounds cool and speeds up play" over "this makes sense and increases verisimilitude" which may be perfect for the kind of game you're running or it might not, depending on what you and your players want out of it.

3.5 (or Pathfinder, if you can find it) is a very different beast. It's still not totally realistic, but it can do more grounded types of fantasy without totally screwing up. However, balance between the classes is completely nonexistent. Depending on how your players build their characters, the spellcasters will feel totally underpowered as they blow their 3 spells for the day in the first round and have to flee and/or shoot crossbow bolts at people until they can sleep for 8 hours, OR the non-spellcasters (fighters, monks and the like) will feel underpowered as the spellcasters use their spells to one-shot bosses, send them to other dimensions full of pain and suffering, or make their pets into guided missiles that do melee combat better than the fighter 5 levels higher than them.

tl;dr: if you want balance between the players as to how awesome they are, go with 4th. If you want grittier games where balance of power isn't necessarily split evenly among the players, go with 3.5. (Or Pathfinder, but that's a tale for another thread.)
Well put, none need look further than this ^
 

Johnny Impact

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I have decided to get the Pathfinder books. Half the folks at my hobby store rave about them; the other half are playing 4E.

Thank you all for the info and opinions. It's great to talk with my fellow dicers. Now where did I put that Monster Manual.....
 

Your once and future Fanboy

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Feb 11, 2009
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One of my biggest gripes with 4.0 where the monster manual and the DM options in general.
In 3.5 and 3.0 you where given atributes and modefiers for every creature so that you could fully coustomize them and build real challanges from anything.
hell, you could make a CR 20 encounter with a single goblin if you wanted to.

But in 4.0 you get a quick and easy, but limiting list of sample creatures, and no statistics or formulas on how to customize them beyond just adding more of them.

If i wanted to fight a goblin and still get CR 20 in 4.0, i would have to make it riddled with templates AND get 50 of his equal friends, while I could just give the goblin 20 levels in 3.5.

Maybe they have fixed this with the later monster manuals and DM books, but even though 3.5 had almost to much variation and options (the Unearthed arcana book had enough to make you go crazy), and where difficult to get into for some, I would rather have many possibilities and a litte challange at the begining, than to have a easy start where I soon realized I had "no more world to conquer"
 

KedynCrow

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I'm a fan of 3.5 D&D; I've found it to be quick to pick up, easy to homebrew with, and reasonably fairly balanced. I've also tried 3.75/Pathfinder, and found that while I dig some of the tweaks, there are others that sort of irk me. 4.0 feels a little like an MMO, I'll agree, but if you're looking for a dungeon-bust where everyone is a mighty god of war and destruction, it can actually be pretty fun.

All in all, it really depends on your play-style.
 

StrixMaxima

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I play D&D using 3.5 rules with 2nd Edition Scenarios (for the most part). We simply love Forgotten Realms at that specific moment in the lore, with the Gods roaming around and interacting with the heroes of the time.

4.0 is simply a wargame for me. And, when I want to play wargames, I grab my Vampire Counts armies in Warhammer Fantasy battle.

Try playing Call of Cthulhu. Any edition. It is simply glorious, probably the best mixture of simplicity, fun and cleverness present in any other RPG. Anyone can play it after a quick rules walkthrough (around 30 minutes). Do yourself this favor.
 

Slycne

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Feb 19, 2006
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I've played 4th and 3rd and think they are both blotted messes. That's not to say I can't and don't have fun with them, but I've had far better experiences with old Red/Blue Box D&D than anything else. This is coming from someone who started at 3rd too, so it's not simply a nostalgia thing.

I haven't had a chance to try Pathfinder yet though. I like that they fix some of the class issues, but without a major overall I don't think it's that much improved from the core clumsy slowness that is 3rd edition. For example, we can run a massively fun and challenging encounter with over 500 skeletons (we took some diamonds, what's the worst that could happen) in less than an hour in B/X. That's a fight that would take hours in 3rd or 4th.
 

tzimize

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Pathfinder is brilliant. It really is like 3.5 2.0 if that makes sense :p
The world is great, the books are good. There are some interesting classes and its pretty well balanced. It is a bit more streamlined when it comes to some skills, and some feats are changed, but its all for the better.

I tried 4th edition...twice or so...didnt like it. Pathfinder is where its at. Familiar enough to not be a hassle and new enough to be intriguing. And yes, its 3.5 compatible :D Minor modifications are needed for monsters but they are so small you can do them on the fly.

Slycne said:
I've played 4th and 3rd and think they are both blotted messes. That's not to say I can't and don't have fun with them, but I've had far better experiences with old Red/Blue Box D&D than anything else. This is coming from someone who started at 3rd too, so it's not simply a nostalgia thing.

I haven't had a chance to try Pathfinder yet though. I like that they fix some of the class issues, but without a major overall I don't think it's that much improved from the core clumsy slowness that is 3rd edition. For example, we can run a massively fun and challenging encounter with over 500 skeletons (we took some diamonds, what's the worst that could happen) in less than an hour in B/X. That's a fight that would take hours in 3rd or 4th.
Yeah...more players and more monsters can be a hassle. But thats the beauty about RPGs really, you can just modify them. Add a house rule for dealing with big masses of creatures. If its possible to do effectively in the game you were talking about, why not adopt a rule or two? :)