D&D 3.5 vs 4.0

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BloodSquirrel

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Johnny Impact said:
I'm sure this thread has been done before but I didn't see it in the search results. Maybe I'm just tired.

Has anyone out there played D&D 3.5, or 4.0, or, preferably, both?

I'm looking for ways to compare and contrast editions. I have two rookies in my gaming group and I'm searching for the best way to explain the differences before starting a campaign. They get to choose which edition they like the sound of. As I have never done anything with 4.0 I need to understand it better myself.

I'm a veteran GM who has run Advanced, 2E, and 3.5 before. 3.5 seems to be the ultimate expression of "classic" D&D.

I've heard 4.0 is "World of D&DCraft," essentially redesigned from the ground up as a dice-and-paper MMO. I understand it plays very differently.

Thoughts? Opinions? Advice?

Edit: We just got finished with two seasons of White Wolf. I did Werewolf, then another guy did Mage. Now we're doing a lighthearted superhero game. We'll go back to World of Darkness but not right now.

Edit again: I've heard Pathfinder mentioned before. Are 3.5 sourcebooks compatible with it -- Monster Manual, etc?
4th edition is less "World of D&DCraft" and more "back to it's wargamming roots". The idea is that the roleplaying aspect doesn't need to be bogged down in rules, while the combat is designed around greater use of movement and abilities.

Overall, it's FAR more balanced, intuitive, and streamlined than 3.5, but without sacrificing depth. There are a few things you'll miss from 3.5, but there are tons of other things to love about it. For example: The mess that was multiclassing and prestige classes in earlier editions has been replaced with built-in customization options for classes. Each class has more options to start off with, and when you get to level 10 you pick a paragon path. Paragon paths are basically everything good about prestige classes built right into normal level advancement. Oh, and there is no such thing as "caster level" anymore, thank god.
 

baconcow

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I have Pathfinder. Core Rules, Bestiary 1, World Guide, and the Official GM Screen. Great stuff here.
 

Thanatos5150

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Honestly, having played with both, I greatly prefer 4e over 3.5.

3.5 is nothing but various levels and flavours of broken-to-the-point-of-unplayability, with absurd power creep, class imbalance, and lack of round-to-round choices in combat.

4e, on the other hand has a good, level playing field, and, from what I've seen, doesn't power creep too much, which was 3.5's primary problem (Aside from full casters. Goddess, casters! What did us mundanes ever do to you?).

The people who complain about there being less outside-of-combat stuff to do are jesting at scars that have and will never feel a wound. I've spent more time enjoying 4e outside of combat than I have enjoying 3.5 in OR outside of combat. Their narrative skills (or their DM's narrative skills) may have trouble adapting to things without a strict ruleset, but there's still no reason you can't stab the bartender, he just doesn't have a page and a half of stats for the DM to run crying to.

Perhaps most importantly, 4e made it fun to play as a frickin' caster again.
Yes, I'm aware that all classes are, mechanically, just as caster as each other, but in 3.x you had mammoth spell lists, planning and preparing your spells, followed up by the DM pulling a TPK out of his arse because you had the gall to not play a batman or a CoDzilla.

In 4e, you have your powers, and no save-or-sucks, no save-or-dies, and no batmanning your way through the fight and leaving everybody who rolled lower on initiative (which is everybody, thanks to your quickened Celerity spell you've had ready to cast as a free action since you woke up) standing around feeling impotent.
4e is an actual game, 3.5 is swinging around big numerical sticks and pretending like they mean a damn.
 

Sovvolf

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I couldn't really tell you, I only ever started with 4E and that was just before Christmas time. I'm a real noob when it comes to D&D and with the looks of these comments I'm an unwanted player because I started with 4E. Though personally I've no preference, the only reason I started with 4E was because the rest of the group wanted to start there. I hadn't been able to play D&D for the longest of times because no one in the area plays it. Had to get a bunch of guys from around the internet to play it (through MSN and recently through XBL voice chat). So I didn't start as early as most people here.

Though further reading into these comments suggests that there's a broken base every time a new version is released. Which I guess is not dissimilar to most mediums. I imagine that most 4E or 4.5E will be complaining that its broken and a sin to the world when 5E is released.
 

Slycne

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tzimize said:
Slycne said:
I've played 4th and 3rd and think they are both blotted messes. That's not to say I can't and don't have fun with them, but I've had far better experiences with old Red/Blue Box D&D than anything else. This is coming from someone who started at 3rd too, so it's not simply a nostalgia thing.

I haven't had a chance to try Pathfinder yet though. I like that they fix some of the class issues, but without a major overall I don't think it's that much improved from the core clumsy slowness that is 3rd edition. For example, we can run a massively fun and challenging encounter with over 500 skeletons (we took some diamonds, what's the worst that could happen) in less than an hour in B/X. That's a fight that would take hours in 3rd or 4th.
Yeah...more players and more monsters can be a hassle. But thats the beauty about RPGs really, you can just modify them. Add a house rule for dealing with big masses of creatures. If its possible to do effectively in the game you were talking about, why not adopt a rule or two? :)
Well the main reason it's possible is because B/X embraces a style of play that doesn't require miniatures, precise spacing, dealing with attacks of opportunity, etc. You could certainly hack together a ruling that each block of hp represents X number of skeletons and what not, but short of gutting the combat systems you are going to be hard pressed to simulate a fight like that in its entirety in a decent amount of time. The strengths of the other editions end up becoming their downfalls, at least in this regard.
 

Thanatos5150

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ravensheart18 said:
Muticlassing is mucked up, but you end up with silly stuff like fighters that can self heal.
Once per day with a Leader feat. Once.
And just how is a Fighter being able to slap himself in the face and yelling at himself to pull his stuff together (The Warlord's Healing power) and gaining a little package of HP in echange silly (Especially since it's exactly what the Warlord class can do - twice an encounter.)

Personally, I find the whole "You can multi-class once, but you're primarily your REAL class is a lot less complicated than the silly CoDzilla / Tippy Wizard out there.
 

Falseprophet

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Slycne said:
I've played 4th and 3rd and think they are both blotted messes. That's not to say I can't and don't have fun with them, but I've had far better experiences with old Red/Blue Box D&D than anything else. This is coming from someone who started at 3rd too, so it's not simply a nostalgia thing.

I haven't had a chance to try Pathfinder yet though. I like that they fix some of the class issues, but without a major overall I don't think it's that much improved from the core clumsy slowness that is 3rd edition. For example, we can run a massively fun and challenging encounter with over 500 skeletons (we took some diamonds, what's the worst that could happen) in less than an hour in B/X. That's a fight that would take hours in 3rd or 4th.
BloodSquirrel said:
4th edition is less "World of D&DCraft" and more "back to it's wargamming roots". The idea is that the roleplaying aspect doesn't need to be bogged down in rules, while the combat is designed around greater use of movement and abilities.

Overall, it's FAR more balanced, intuitive, and streamlined than 3.5, but without sacrificing depth. There are a few things you'll miss from 3.5, but there are tons of other things to love about it. For example: The mess that was multiclassing and prestige classes in earlier editions has been replaced with built-in customization options for classes. Each class has more options to start off with, and when you get to level 10 you pick a paragon path. Paragon paths are basically everything good about prestige classes built right into normal level advancement. Oh, and there is no such thing as "caster level" anymore, thank god.
Quoting you both for truth. I've played both and am running Pathfinder, and I think after these games are over I'll never run anything with the d20 core mechanic again.
 

BloodSquirrel

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Your once and future Fanboy said:
If i wanted to fight a goblin and still get CR 20 in 4.0, i would have to make it riddled with templates AND get 50 of his equal friends, while I could just give the goblin 20 levels in 3.5.
Here's how you get a "CR20" goblin in 4.0:

You pick an existing level 20 solo mosnter and tell your players that it's a goblin.

Yes, I know what you really wanted to do, but the important question is whether or not you *SHOULD* be doing it. When you find yourself trying to turn a monster designed to be a minor threat to level 1 characters into a major encounter for level 20 characters, it's time to stop and ask whether or not there's a more elegant and balanced solution. The 4th edition rulebooks straight-up suggest one: start from a more appropriate base monster.

Meanwhile, the minion/elite/solo system offers a better variety of tools to build encounters right out of the box. Minions are far, far, superior way of adding large numbers of monsters to fights than 3rd's goofy "doubling the number adds a CR of 2" system.

*4th edition does have rules for straight-up adding or subtracting levels to monsters, but suggests not taking it beyond 5 or so levels.
 

Folio

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I can't compare 4E with 3.5. But I have heard it's 'casualised' or 'a cakewalk'. This is not necasarily (whatever) so. Things CAN get tough in 4E, just dump a level 4 creature on level 1 players.

I think it's a little too combat oriented, distracting players from the 'story' aspect and pushing them to dice rolling and shouting attack powers.

For differences, here are some ranting nerds about the game. But every D&D player will argue that the newer edition is worse than the old one. They just need to get used to it.

http://spoonyexperiment.com/2008/07/12/dungeons-and-dragons-4th-edition-review/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGg6_-RTckM

Also: 3.5 needs a Cleric. 4E doesn't need a Cleric, but rather a boring class catagorised as a 'Leader'. So flavorwise it widens the range.

I suggest 4E for beginners, it's easier in a way, but provides more calculation at the beginning. (again, I haven't played 3.5, but I saw a character sheet of it. 4E has simplified skills and builds)
 

PeterDawson

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I really do like both editions. 4.0 runs with the current trend set by video games to make the classes more comparable and the adjustment between playing each a bit less jarring. Every class has powers, but the class's role and basic abilities are different, its just very easy to categorize each. I would argue 4.0 is more open when it comes to a character being a jack of all trades in terms of skills, though I'm not huge on its version of multi-classing. 3.5 meanwhile makes it a bit less of a game and allows for more roleplaying, or so I'd argue just because I feel it has more rules in place for doing stuff outside of combat. I'm not trying to sell 4th edition's skill challenges short it just feels more 'right' in 3.5 to me. Plus as I hinted at 3.5 works better in my opinion for multi-classing and more advanced play, though 4th can get pretty advanced as well.
 

gCrusher

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I like all DnD. From my origins playing 1st Ed, on to ADnD 2nd, first in line to pick up 3.0 and the later 3.5, and now with 4E and the Essentials line. Rules are just there to quantify the experience.

This aside, I like 4E. Call it lazy, but as a DM, I've never found it easier to be able to pit a balanced foe against my players. Sure, there's luck (and lack thereof) of dice rolls, but your players should stand a chance to actually hit and bring down whatever monster you place before them. Except in those cases where they shouldn't, but hey, that's where plot comes in.

Another groaner people give for 4E is the Skill Challenges. Having played 3.5 with Social Ninjas (there are no fights because I just bluff/charmed/obliterated any defense the BBEG is going to bring up with a wink and a smile), I like how other players can guide the story by trying to use those other numbers on the sheet, more than just the AC and hit/damage modifiers. You're all there to tell the story; the DM has expectations on how it'll end, but the players feel more satisfaction if they can interact with their work.

In summary, you get your friends together for good times, and if no one's yelling that the rules aren't being used properly, you're doing it right. But for a fairly straightforward system, I have yet to find a better build than what 4E offers me right now.

EDIT: The biggest problem I had with 3.0 and 3.5 that I found was later level advance. As you progressed into the Epic realms, you'd find these gaping holes in Fort/Ref/Will. It began to look petty as a DM if you singled out the Fighter with the vs. Will attack and the Rogue with the Fort-attacking death move, etc. Sure, with some feat choices and gear benefits, you could avoid it a little bit, but it felt like I had to fix the system for the sake of fairness, balance and fun. No thanks, already did that for years with Palladium's games (ZING). Not everyone is going to play a character into high levels (double digits is usually rare) but the system begins to come apart at that point.
 

loc978

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...of those I prefer 3.5...

But homebrew is always better. My game of choice is 2nd edition D&D with a smattering of Star Wars D20 rules thrown in. Balance may be difficult to achieve, but storytelling and verisimilitude are much easier when you make the world yourself.
 

luccadeas

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So I'm new to DnD and just bought the DM's kit and the players manual. should I keep going or just quit entirely and go for pathfinder? Me and my friends really want to get into DnD.
 

betastyle

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As someone who jumped into the mire hip-deep when fourth edition came out, I feel an urge to add my own two cents to this mix, since I see a lot of the same arguments that, if you will pardon the comparison, led to a lot of circular whining on the official WotC and RPG.net forums.

A little about my own experiences: the very first pen and paper RPG I ever got into in a big way was Exalted, back when I was in high school. I had seen World of Darkness, and sat in on a game session among my friends once, and it wasn't wholly my thing. I fell totally into the Exalted setting, and embraced the high ridiculousness of the character possibilities and over-the-top powers whole-heartedly.

I didn't get a chance to play D&D until college, when I got into a weekly group with some friends in our dorm. Most of the characters I play and create tend to be expys of established characters from films and games, since that helps me to define a personality and mindset when it comes to actual role playing scenarios, and I kept finding that the rules for class and character kept conflicting with my ideas, and our DM was rather set in the basics of flow when it came to combat. I'd start describing what my character would do in detail, and try to have fun with the scenery, and my DM would just say "Look, just roll for attack, okay?"

3.5 edition had been around for so long and had so much supplemental material that immediate proficiency wasn't possible for me, nor was depth really an option for our DM and the other players. I was trying to feel out what characters and classes might be fun, in a party that consisted of tremendously min-maxed, multiclassed behemoths, so the experience was highly discouraging from just about every angle. Even when I got to play with a group that was more willing to play from the core handbook to help me out, things just got bogged down with the built-in limitations to character options and the alignment wheel - which, more often than not, I saw people use as a way to justify not having to justify what their character did ("I'm chaotic neutral, wheee!")

4th edition came as a great surprise and a wonderful experience, because it felt more like Exalted was to me. Yes, it is more tactical in its approach and execution, which works well to encourage groups to be thinking and acting as a team as they move through the stories. Things are simplified in build and execution, true, but that's a good thing for new players and veterans alike to streamline their options and not to spend precious minutes and waste table space with indexing seven different splat books to try and remember what that one obscure feat lets you do and when it lets you do it. There's a lot more emphasis on the player building the fine details, rather than letting the rules or the numbers do it.

I had a tremendous amount of FUN playing a half-elf rogue that was more in the style of an Errol Flynn swashbuckler (using Charisma based powers to do damage), or my Marcus Fenix dragonborn Warlord (with healing powers that involved kicking my party members in the rear and shouting at them :) ), and my roommate got to play his Raven Queen paladin unrestricted, and was quite happy with the whole experience. Also, one of our group's DMs (who is a 'professional' dungeon master, invited to help run special events) was ecstatic at the ease with which he could create his own world, monsters, and situations to throw at players, and how there were clearer rules for situations outside of the realm of combat, and a lot more guidelines for improvisation and actually using the scenery around the characters for various effects.

The argument that this makes D&D more like a video game is kind of getting the cart before the horse, I feel. The roles of "defender", "striker," and "controller," have ALWAYS existed in the purview of D&D, they just haven't been given names before in the actual rule book's text. Nearly every electronic role playing game, from Gauntlet and Ultima to Elder Scrolls, Dragon Age and, yes, World of Warcraft, is built on classes and concepts that were originally defined in the realm of pen and paper games (which, in turn, were built from old army vs. army figurine games, lest we forget that Chainmail ever existed). I feel that all of the arguments against 4th edition come from people who are either strongly resistant to change - an understandable position, given that such games really are an investment over time - or are unwilling to put their own thought and creativity into characters and story, preferring to let the game's own rules or mechanics aid them in the fleshing out process.

3.5 edition D&D is like ordering a meal at any chain restaurant: full of interesting choices, but until you learn how to properly special order your meal, you're bound to get a lot of toppings you don't really like at first. 4th edition is like Mexican food: the same basic ingredients, but nearly infinite permutations based on one's imagination. I enjoy the former, but myself, I preferred the latter.

See what you and your players prefer more, go roll some dice and I hope you have fun =)
 

betastyle

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luccadeas said:
So I'm new to DnD and just bought the DM's kit and the players manual. should I keep going or just quit entirely and go for pathfinder? Me and my friends really want to get into DnD.
Get into D&D =) If it's something you really want to do, go do it. Read up on the rules, see what your friends come up with for characters and story ideas, try a few games and sessions, go nuts. Check out pathfinder if it turns out D&D isn't your thing. Apart from the cost of the books, there's really no reason why you'd have to choose one game over the other.
 

moose_man

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4.0 is so much simpler, in a good way. 3.5 is WAY too complicated, with a few exceptions(i.e., multiclassing, crafting) but those can be houseruled. Which is one of the great things about D&D.
 

loc978

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betastyle said:
I didn't get a chance to play D&D until college, when I got into a weekly group with some friends in our dorm. Most of the characters I play and create tend to be expys of established characters from films and games, since that helps me to define a personality and mindset when it comes to actual role playing scenarios, and I kept finding that the rules for class and character kept conflicting with my ideas, and our DM was rather set in the basics of flow when it came to combat. I'd start describing what my character would do in detail, and try to have fun with the scenery, and my DM would just say "Look, just roll for attack, okay?"

3.5 edition had been around for so long and had so much supplemental material that immediate proficiency wasn't possible for me, nor was depth really an option for our DM and the other players. I was trying to feel out what characters and classes might be fun, in a party that consisted of tremendously min-maxed, multiclassed behemoths, so the experience was highly discouraging from just about every angle. Even when I got to play with a group that was more willing to play from the core handbook to help me out, things just got bogged down with the built-in limitations to character options and the alignment wheel - which, more often than not, I saw people use as a way to justify not having to justify what their character did ("I'm chaotic neutral, wheee!")
I hate to go insulting a person I don't know, but that right there is just symptoms of a truly terrible Dungeon Master.
Ideally, the edition you're playing and the internal mechanics of the game shouldn't matter so much to the player, because it's the DM's job to keep track of it all. Players are there to play the character they created, and that includes in-depth descriptions of actions in combat. Personally, I give bonuses for cleverness in combat, and make stat checks for most "creative" maneuvers. One famous exchange from a campaign of mine:
"How much damage does a bear do?"
"Doesn't matter, it's dead."
"No, I want to use the corpse as a club."

...I let him. He had the strength for it, and it was a fairly effective deterrent, if not much of a weapon.

Also, chaotic neutral is not an excuse to do just anything, it does reflect a set of values. I imagine if I were the DM over those min-maxed behemoths, they'd all be neutral evil and hunted by most NPCs about the time the second scene rolled around. Very few people can really get chaotic alignments right...
 

Fappy

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Pathfinder is pretty much 3.5 but better. I would definitely give them that option.
 

Fasckira

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I prefer 4e. Its ideal for those who just want to jump into the game and not spend so much time hunting for various rules. 3.5 is fantastic if you're willing to take the time to do a lot more prep work but if like me you're just looking to kick start a fun story and have an easy going social event then 4e all the way.
 

RockOn3906

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Probably a little late, as I think you've made your choice if I read the thread right, but here's my two cents.

Johnny Impact said:
Has anyone out there played D&D 3.5, or 4.0, or, preferably, both?

I'm looking for ways to compare and contrast editions. I have two rookies in my gaming group and I'm searching for the best way to explain the differences before starting a campaign. They get to choose which edition they like the sound of. As I have never done anything with 4.0 I need to understand it better myself.

I'm a veteran GM who has run Advanced, 2E, and 3.5 before. 3.5 seems to be the ultimate expression of "classic" D&D.

I've heard 4.0 is "World of D&DCraft," essentially redesigned from the ground up as a dice-and-paper MMO. I understand it plays very differently.

Thoughts? Opinions? Advice?
Given the choice between the two, 3.5 definitely has the upper hand on 4.0. I've only played it for one or two gaming sessions ('bout 4 hours each) and I find it really upkeep-intensive--too much paperwork and keeping track of what you used, when you did and how often you can. It kinda takes away from the simple "roll dice and kill stuff" fun of the game.

That said, I like Pathfinder best for the changes it made to the already-good 3.5. Which leads me to this:

Johnny Impact said:
I've heard Pathfinder mentioned before. Are 3.5 sourcebooks compatible with it -- Monster Manual, etc?
The answer: It DOES have its own set of core books, but to an extent, yes. Certain skills in 3.5 have been changed/combined with others (e.g. Spot + Listen = Perception) and some feats and rules applicable in 3.5 expansion books like the "Complete XXXX" series would need a bit of retweaking to conform to PF strength.

Most of the material, however, can either be used as is (sometimes with a little rewording as in the case of items modifying skills) or scrapped entirely (such as some base or prestige classes), leaving very little gray area of "How can I make this work without breaking the game?" I play in a weekly Pathfinder game where our DM dis/allows 3.5 stuff--specifically, magic items--on a case to case basis and thus far, it's worked quite nicely.