D&D Next Aims to Make the DM's Job Easier

[Colt47]

d20, modifier, bonuses and that makes up most of the game? Reminds me a bit of Dungeon World! Which, personally, I'd think of as a kinda nice thing. Got a regular group of friends I play tabletop games with, and between all the different RPG systems we've tried from time to time it seems Dungeon World is the one the group likes the most as it's all just... built to be easily managed and on the go. Really fun to be a Game Master in, too, but if D&D Next is going in a similar direction I'm definitely curious myself! Fair enough that there's a lot to get into when you're a Game Master, it's kind of expected, but it's also one of those fields where, honestly, more streamlined and less work just sounds appealing. Right?

Would be good if someone could send that memo to Palladium books... Great settings, horrible system to try and DM.

Palladium, don't they basically do apocalyptic everything RPGs? From what I understand of them, they've got some of the most aggressively anti-adaptation attitudes in the business. Don't think I've ever seen an RPG company as fiercely against content adaptation as Palladium, least of all one that goes after its own users for adapting to and from other systems.

Oh man, it's a mine field over there. Thankfully, the settings are fairly easy to adapt to other game systems like World of Darkness, tri-stat, etc. Really, palladium has been shooting themselves in the foot for a while now and even many of the fans of the game have been trying to get them to update to a simpler system. There was even a purging of sorts that happened on the forums where many of the more vocal players got out right banned, so now most fans of the game sort of silently grumble about the lack of fixes done to the actual system and soldier on. Right now it seems the owners of palladium books are more interested in milking what good franchises they have left and fade into history.

 

[Mortuorum]

But sometimes a group just wants to hurry up and play, so I dont see how pre-made characters are a bad thing, to be honest.

I don't mean that premade characters are bad in general. I mean they're bad way of solving the newcomer to D&D is confronted with hour of paperwork before they can start having fun problem.

The reason is it's already skipping over the most fun and unique aspects of a pen and paper RPG. If you want to introduce someone to a game and get them to experience how amazing it is, but then don't have them create their own characters...

For regulars who want a quick game without filling in forms, pre-made characters are great. But if you want to introduce a newbie then you want a system that allows them to create their own characters but in a really quick and simple way.

I've been running a 4th edition D&D game for a little over three years. We started everyone at first level and the PCs are just now hitting level 17, so I think it's fair to say I have a reasonable amount of experience with the system.

Character creation is complex. So much so that trying to create even a first level character without D&D Tools or Hero Lab can be frustrating. Creating a from-scratch character in the teens without one of those tools is an exercise in futility. I've never tried it, but I would imagine that creating a new 15th-level character (including equipment) just using pen and paper could easily take three or four hours (and you'd probably miss something in the process).

Early on, we gave up having the players manage their own characters. When they level up, I rely on D&D Tools to let me know what's changed, let the players know their choices, and update their characters for them. It's a pain in the ass, but it's the only thing we've found that works for us. I also have to have a level-appropriate pre-gen character on hand pretty much at all times in case we have a drop-in player.

This is a lot of work for me on top of my regular DM responsibilities. (Not to mention family, work, grad school, etc.) Simply revamping the character creation rules so that my players could maintain their own PCs would be a huge help. Simplifying combat wouldn't be bad either. Things seemed better under 4 than under 3.5 when we started, but there are now enough conditions in effect during a battle at any given time that we have to rely on tokens, tape flags and (sometimes) a whiteboard just to keep everything straight.

 

[Zen Bard]

It sounds like D&D is getting back to its roots.

I remember back in The Day when there were only three books; "The Player's Handbook", "The Monster Manual" and "The Dungeon Master's Guide".

It was still an intricate system. But over the last decade or so, especially since the property was acquired by "Wizards of the Coast", it just seems like the complexity spiraled out of control.

Glad the publishers finally realized that.

There's a difference between dumbing down and stremlining. Hopefully D & D Next will be an example of the latter.

(Crossing my fingers while wearing my Gauntlet of Good Fortune for a +7 on my luck roll...)

 

[Folji]

Oh man, it's a mine field over there. Thankfully, the settings are fairly easy to adapt to other game systems like World of Darkness, tri-stat, etc. Really, palladium has been shooting themselves in the foot for a while now and even many of the fans of the game have been trying to get them to update to a simpler system. There was even a purging of sorts that happened on the forums where many of the more vocal players got out right banned, so now most fans of the game sort of silently grumble about the lack of fixes done to the actual system and soldier on. Right now it seems the owners of palladium books are more interested in milking what good franchises they have left and fade into history.

If what I've read around is right, they've essentially taken a creative medium (which tabletop RPGs are, you're weaving epic tales for both yourself and the players who are playing their parts in it, it's a highly creative and intellectual process!) and let a band of lawyers set them on the idea that if they just forbid any crossovers to anything no matter what way they can avoid any lawsuits related to it. But when was the last time anyone -ever- pressed a lawsuit over an RPG conversion? It's just daft!

 

[spartan231490]

In some ways I'm sad that it's D&D which is the most famous RPG systems. So many newbies will try to start with it and get swamped by the complexity and half hour - hour character creation.

If something a lot more narrative based, like Apocalypse World, was peoples entry into pen and paper RPGs it'd be a lot more easy to get straight to the fun stuff and then D&D Infinity Go w/e would be a great system to transition into.

I know they've spent a lot of time trying to solve that problem, but D&D has too much baggage to be fixable. Players don't want preset characters, they want a system that's fundamentally quick to make characters. The things they implement are just slipshod patches trying to serve too many masters

My first tabletop was DnD and I loved it. I loved it most because of the complexity. I still love it because of the complexity, the infinite combinations, and especially the diverse ways I can beat an encounter. I can fight, I can haggle, I can charm, I can use the environment. It's only limited by imagination. Sure, it might be nice if it was a bit more newbie friendly, but not at the cost of losing that depth.

 

[Deathlyphil]

I'm glad to hear they are trying to make it easier to get into rpg's. GMing for the first time is quite daunting.

On the other hand, are they going to do anything about players min/maxing everything? I've played 3 or 4 campaigns with different groups, and every single time it's gone from roleplaying to min/maxing after a few sessions. Spending most of the time with one player or another scouring rules so that they can get that elusive +1 on a roll is bloody boring.

That's why I tend to go for systems that focus on the roleplaying side of things.

 

[BrotherRool]

My first tabletop was DnD and I loved it. I loved it most because of the complexity. I still love it because of the complexity, the infinite combinations, and especially the diverse ways I can beat an encounter. I can fight, I can haggle, I can charm, I can use the environment. It's only limited by imagination. Sure, it might be nice if it was a bit more newbie friendly, but not at the cost of losing that depth.

That's why I wish another RPG was the famous one, we all get to eat cake. The newbie attrition rate is much lower (just from personal experience the number of people who try to play DnD and don't get beyond the first session must be pretty huge) and we don't have to give up on the complexity of DnD because it doesn't need to try and serve the newbies.

If you've got a friend whose experienced with them he could say 'I think you'd like something a bit more complex, have you tried DnD?' or newbies can say 'this game was really awesome but I'd like to crunch more numbers' and then those people could move onto DnD

 

[Thunderous Cacophony]

Sorry, still an old school 2nd Edition junkie myself. I know 2nd Edition makes some people want to pull their hair out but I LOVE it. I have books upon books upon boxes of 2nd Edition material not including all the campaign/game materials I've put together myself that is in composition books.

That being said, being a good DM has very little to do with how well you grasp the rules and almost everything to do with how well you can put a story together and improvise on the fly when your well crafted adventure gets passed over entirely because your players end up on some wild tangent you never foresaw.

It's true that being light on your feet is key to being a DM, but the rules are an integral part of that. Apocalypse World has a beautiful system for the Master of Ceremonies (DM by another name) called their moves. Each one is designed to be something that you can throw out and have the players deal with it. In full, they are:

Spoiler

-Separate them.
-Capture someone.
-Put someone in a spot.
-Trade harm for harm (as established).
-Announce off-screen badness.
-Announce future badness.
-Inflict harm (as established).
-Take away their stuff.
-Make them buy.
-Activate their stuff?s downside.
-Tell them the possible consequences and ask.
-Offer an opportunity, with or without a cost.
-Turn their move back on them.
-Make a threat move (from one of your fronts).
-After every move: "what do you do?"

I'm sure a veteran like you can see how each is simple enough to understand, yet flexible enough that at least a couple will fit any situation, and allows for improvisation on the part of the players.

On the other hand, encounter design in 3X was a nightmare because of the CR system. It was supposed to allow the DM to easily pick an opponent that the players would be challenged but not immediately overwhelmed by, but the balance was atrocious. In this case, the rules are directly prevented a DM from being able to improvise, as they now need either to have a bunch of thought-out enemy rosters beforehand, or to wing it and rely on their own judgement to decide difficulty (not an easy task, even for veterans).

If the rules are easy to grasp and understand behind the screen, it allows you to put a better situation in front of it, rather than constantly scrambling to try and provide something worthwhile to players.

 

[scotth266]

I reserve judgement until I have my hands on the rules, but anything that makes play faster is a good thing.

It sounds like D&D is getting back to its roots.

I remember back in The Day when there were only three books; "The Player's Handbook", "The Monster Manual" and "The Dungeon Master's Guide".

...And these are the only three books you need in 4E (and presumably Next). The rest of it is just supplements, not required reading. It's nothing but pre-made adventure modules for easy DMing, bonus fluff, and extra options if you really want them. I don't understand the nostalgia goggles over something that is still present in modern-day DND.

 

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

I reserve judgement until I have my hands on the rules, but anything that makes play faster is a good thing.

It sounds like D&D is getting back to its roots.

I remember back in The Day when there were only three books; "The Player's Handbook", "The Monster Manual" and "The Dungeon Master's Guide".

...And these are the only three books you need in 4E (and presumably Next). The rest of it is just supplements, not required reading. It's nothing but pre-made adventure modules for easy DMing, bonus fluff, and extra options if you really want them. I don't understand the nostalgia goggles over something that is still present in modern-day DND.

Also, these are the only books you actually NEED to play ANY edition. As you say, the rest is fluff and spinning rims. Even the excessive books for 3.5 are entirely un neccesary, and stem from a desire to make your character idea into a class, instead of a build. Samurai and Ninja are the worst offenders at this. I clamp down HARD on non-PHB classes. Prestige classes I say go nuts, but what you are looking for in your character can be done with the 8 classes, and chances are you just need to take the Profession skill rather than make a whole new (likely broken as fuck) class.

I am heartened to see that they have chosen to focus on DM ing being easier - nothing is a worse turn off than a piss poor DM. I would also like to see a focus on inexpensive options for the Table itself. Pathfinder's cardboard monsters are perfect, and I use them in my dnd all the time.

 

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

I don't think I'd be breaking any NDA by saying this, but the majority of my feedback during the play test for DnD next mainly involved making the mechanics smoother. Actually it's still not simplified enough to my liking, but is a lot better than 4th ed.


Looking at the thread I don't think anyone would disagree with this perception too greatly but I do feel dungeons and dragons needs a really big rethink in the way actions are carried out. It's still such a clunky system and I really want to see it done with ease of play in mind, rather than creating depth through unnecessary complexity.

I think I don't understand: actions in DnD are carried out with a D20 roll, plus the appropriate skill modifier I.E. I roll Climb D20+8.

I certainly agree that there is some complexity to DnD that needs addressing, but the mechanics of just taking actions and generally interacting with either the environment I have always found to be easy and smooth. It's the Dice rolling low when i really need that 15 that screws me over.

 

[spartan231490]

My first tabletop was DnD and I loved it. I loved it most because of the complexity. I still love it because of the complexity, the infinite combinations, and especially the diverse ways I can beat an encounter. I can fight, I can haggle, I can charm, I can use the environment. It's only limited by imagination. Sure, it might be nice if it was a bit more newbie friendly, but not at the cost of losing that depth.

That's why I wish another RPG was the famous one, we all get to eat cake. The newbie attrition rate is much lower (just from personal experience the number of people who try to play DnD and don't get beyond the first session must be pretty huge) and we don't have to give up on the complexity of DnD because it doesn't need to try and serve the newbies.

If you've got a friend whose experienced with them he could say 'I think you'd like something a bit more complex, have you tried DnD?' or newbies can say 'this game was really awesome but I'd like to crunch more numbers' and then those people could move onto DnD

I don't think DnD loses as many newbies as you think. I've never seen a new player not make it. Only quitters I ever saw quit because 1) her (ex)bf was a player and 2) wanted more time to play WoW(I was very disappointed in them).

I don't know, I actually kind of like some of the newbie-aimed stuff, I just think they should be options instead of requirements

 

[BrotherRool]

I don't think DnD loses as many newbies as you think. I've never seen a new player not make it. Only quitters I ever saw quit because 1) her (ex)bf was a player and 2) wanted more time to play WoW(I was very disappointed in them).

I don't know, I actually kind of like some of the newbie-aimed stuff, I just think they should be options instead of requirements

Whereas I've seen literally a 100% fail rate. I've never seen someone try to play DnD and not quit. I think I've seen 8+ people never get past the form filling stage. The closest I've ever come to see someone start playing DnD and then continue to play DnD was a friend who'd started within a couple of months of my meeting her.

I myself failed on at least two occasions. The first time I was young and DnD seemed like the worst sort of con ever, I filled out some pieces of paper for an hour whilst my friend frantically assured me that 'it was worth it because it'd be fun later' and then that later never happened.

The second time I was actively watching over people play DnD over the internet, I'd heard about how the best game developers were all GMs and moreover some of my favourite writers had been too. I so wanted to get into it and so we all got together started filling out character sheets and then it all fell apart. We'd invested hours into it and no-one could see why it would be worth continuing with because we hadn't got to anything good yet.

The only good way to get into DnD is to find out your group of friends has already been playing for a long time and then they can induct you into it. If it's a group of people who want to start together? They're going to need iron determination.

Whereas Dungeon World? You can totally pick that up in 30 minutes