DA:O and Orzammar (warning contains spoilers)

[ZtH]

On another note, I find it humorous how stuck on tradition the dwarves are, yet it took only ike a five minute conversation to allow the Chantry to preach there. Do you think the Chantry would be a positive influence on Orzammar? Their charity would certainly help the casteless, but is what Orzammar really needs another dogmatic cultural that is slightly more free then their current?

 

[ZtH]

I'm pretty sure some of the nobles would have a second look at the casteless after the events of Golems of Amgarrak. The Warden and her little dwarf friend uncover evidence of entire legions of casteless holding back the Darkspawn in some ancient thaig to buy time for the other dwarves to escape to Orzammar.

I can't wait to play through taht one! Dwarves are generally my favorite fantasy race, but DA certainly made me do a 180 on that. It'd be cool to see some Dwarves who are worthy of respect in ways that those in Orzammar don't seem to be. All in all Orzammar seems to be a really evil city... I mean they could be held responsible for the deaths of all the other Dwarves considering they just shut the Deep Roads and didn't let the rest of the Dwarves flee.

 

[ScoopMeister]

The grey wardens don't meddle in internal politics because they're concerned with the Darkspawn. The Caste system and dwarven societies issues are issues for the dwarves.

But by the very nature of the quests there you're already meddling. This is just a matter of taking it slightly further. Or if you take the recruiting the clanless route you'd be meddling far less than before, though with a weakened army because of it.

Yes, but the only reason you are meddling is to help in the fight with the Darkspawn, and 'taking it slightly further', as you put it, would not being doing this. It really would be meddling for meddling's sake. Noble cause or not, toppling the caste system would be a waste of a warden's time, because by doing so he isn't fighting the darkspawn, just having his own political agenda.
This theory would probably work better in DA2 (if you could actually go to Orzammar in it), since in that you're not a Grey Warden.

 

[the_pleasure_is_mine]

I think it's pretty cool that they have managed to put in an actually grey moral choice on this one. The means that Bhelen uses are way shadier, but what he does with the power does seem to be better. I respect Bioware for not really giving it all one way or all the other on this one.

I did like it but I believe it could have been handled better...

For instance, giving us a better idea of each sides ideas, all I really knew was that Harrowmont was nice, had possibly been (sort of) promised the throne and that Bhelen was a prick and wanted to open more trade routes.

Had I known that Bhelen had plans to open Orzhammar even more to the outside and that he had plans for the casteless, I can say I probably would have backed him more often than I did (I only backed him once for achievement purposes).

 

[ZtH]

Yes, but the only reason you are meddling is to help in the fight with the Darkspawn, and 'taking it slightly further', as you put it, would not being doing this. It really would be meddling for meddling's sake. Noble cause or not, toppling the caste system would be a waste of a warden's time, because by doing so he isn't fighting the darkspawn, just having his own political agenda.
This theory would probably work better in DA2 (if you could actually go to Orzammar in it), since in that you're not a Grey Warden.

Approached from my point of view it would be meddling for meddling's sake. However, the argument could be made that abandoning the caste system would allow the Dwarves to send a much larger force in support of your cause, though it would remain to be seen whether that would be worth the extra time procurring it or not.

 

[ZtH]

I think it's pretty cool that they have managed to put in an actually grey moral choice on this one. The means that Bhelen uses are way shadier, but what he does with the power does seem to be better. I respect Bioware for not really giving it all one way or all the other on this one.

I did like it but I believe it could have been handled better...

For instance, giving us a better idea of each sides ideas, all I really knew was that Harrowmont was nice, had possibly been (sort of) promised the throne and that Bhelen was a prick and wanted to open more trade routes.

Had I known that Bhelen had plans to open Orzhammar even more to the outside and that he had plans for the casteless, I can say I probably would have backed him more often than I did (I only backed him once for achievement purposes).

Yea, it could have been better, but it's still a good example of a moral choice that doesn't rely on a morality bar. It is there solely for the sake of being a moral choice and that is to its benefit.

 

[nukethetuna]

To be honest, nothing in Orzammar really interested me. I'll be honest, I'd have said that eliminating the caste system/recruiting the casteless would've been too big a sweeping change in dwarven culture to really be feasible, but then they did that thing to the whole mage/templar system at the end of DA2, so sure, why not!
When it came to the dwarves, I was more interested in the Deep Roads, which I wish we could just endlessly explore for all eternity, because they are actually that big in-universe. Imagine stumbling upon one of the Old Gods yet to be awakened... or the massive horde of darkspawn searching for him.

 

[trooper6]

On another note, I find it humorous how stuck on tradition the dwarves are, yet it took only ike a five minute conversation to allow the Chantry to preach there. Do you think the Chantry would be a positive influence on Orzammar? Their charity would certainly help the casteless, but is what Orzammar really needs another dogmatic cultural that is slightly more free then their current?

I played as a Dwarven Noble. And there was no way I was going to support Bhelen.

As for the Chantry...they didn't ever come into my Orzammar. Here's the thing, the Maker doesn't apply to dwarves. Humans and Elves show up in the Fade and were made by the Maker, but Dwarves don't. When they die, they go back to the stone. It isn't just that they have different beliefs, there is objective evidence (since people can talk from the afterlife) that they don't work the same way as humans and elves.

During my playthrough I got really into character and had very few positive thoughts about all the surface dwellers. The Dwarves in Orzammar deal with Darkspawn every day all the time. The humans and elves only care when there's a blight and the darkspawn come to the surface. They have their creepy Maker religion that has nothing to do with dwarves. I was happy in Orzammar...until Bhelen betrayed me, that is.

Do Dwarves have the casteless? Yes, but humans have slavery and treat the elves very badly indeed...they are on no moral high ground.

I did my best to help the home that my character got cast out of. And even though I was a Grey Warden, I always wanted to go back and reclaim my rightful position as ruler of Orzammar...I would have been a great King.

 

[trooper6]

I think it's pretty cool that they have managed to put in an actually grey moral choice on this one. The means that Bhelen uses are way shadier, but what he does with the power does seem to be better. I respect Bioware for not really giving it all one way or all the other on this one.

I did like it but I believe it could have been handled better...

For instance, giving us a better idea of each sides ideas, all I really knew was that Harrowmont was nice, had possibly been (sort of) promised the throne and that Bhelen was a prick and wanted to open more trade routes.

Had I known that Bhelen had plans to open Orzhammar even more to the outside and that he had plans for the casteless, I can say I probably would have backed him more often than I did (I only backed him once for achievement purposes).

You can't really know that much about the internal world of Orzammar as a surface dweller. And also, how can you know what Bhelen is planning--you aren't psychic, and he wasn't advertising his plans regarding the casteless. If, on the other hand, you play as a Dwarf, you get a LOT more information about each of those sides.

Similarly, I'm sure if I played as a Dalish elf, I would have had a lot more insider information about what was going on than my Dwarf did. One of the brilliant things about DA:O was that not all PCs had access to all information. There are different cultural groups and you know what you would know based on your upbringing...that means a lot of things about Dwarven culture will probably be quite mysterious to non-Dwarves. I don't think this is evidence of the game not handling the situation well, but handling it better than most games I've played ever have.

 

[ZtH]

On another note, I find it humorous how stuck on tradition the dwarves are, yet it took only ike a five minute conversation to allow the Chantry to preach there. Do you think the Chantry would be a positive influence on Orzammar? Their charity would certainly help the casteless, but is what Orzammar really needs another dogmatic cultural that is slightly more free then their current?

I played as a Dwarven Noble. And there was no way I was going to support Bhelen.

As for the Chantry...they didn't ever come into my Orzammar. Here's the thing, the Maker doesn't apply to dwarves. Humans and Elves show up in the Fade and were made by the Maker, but Dwarves don't. When they die, they go back to the stone. It isn't just that they have different beliefs, there is objective evidence (since people can talk from the afterlife) that they don't work the same way as humans and elves.

During my playthrough I got really into character and had very few positive thoughts about all the surface dwellers. The Dwarves in Orzammar deal with Darkspawn every day all the time. The humans and elves only care when there's a blight and the darkspawn come to the surface. They have their creepy Maker religion that has nothing to do with dwarves. I was happy in Orzammar...until Bhelen betrayed me, that is.

Do Dwarves have the casteless? Yes, but humans have slavery and treat the elves very badly indeed...they are on no moral high ground.

I did my best to help the home that my character got cast out of. And even though I was a Grey Warden, I always wanted to go back and reclaim my rightful position as ruler of Orzammar...I would have been a great King.

I'm not saying that the Dwarves were less honorable than the other races, I mean all of them had their own douches in the game. I was just trying to express that I tend to like Dwarves better in other games than I do in this one. I didn't know that it was that easily provable in the DA universe, which makes me wonder why the dwarves that start worshipping the maker, when you convince the shaper to allow it, do so.

 

[Thespian]

-snip-

I totally agree with what you said here.
Now, I played the Dwarven Noble origin story and it's my favourite of the ones I've seen. I love the political manipulation and high-society story, and I was absolutely furious when

Spoiler

Bhelen betrayed me, so naturally I wasn't going to pick him I was going to pick

Harrowmont instead. But I remember specifically wishing I could topple the caste system instead of supporting Harrowmont. To be honest, the whole Grey Warden thing seemed shoe horned into my story and it would have made a lot more sense if I was the disgraced prince, stripped of caste who returned to Orzammar having seen the flaws of it's ways and ready to make changes. I personally would have loved that story, but oh well.

 

[StriderShinryu]

The problem with blatantly helping the casteless is that it would essentially turn the rest of Orzammar against you. It's not the humanitarian choice, but I'd rather have an army at my back willing to aid me than a loose assortment of the downtrodden, many of whom might sell me out for a meal if the offer was made.

That said, I loved Orzammar. I enjoyed all of DA:O but found Orz to be possibly my favourite area, even through the much reviled Deep Roads. It felt more real and fully designed than many of the other areas, and I wouldn't mind seeing a full game based in and around Orz.

Oh, and for the record, I played as a dwarven noble who did end up supporting my brother when I returned to the city. Was he a scheming, ruthless and cunning bastard? Yes, and I wouldn't say my dwarf noble was eager to support him but, at the same time, who better to understand the noble politicking of Orzammar than another dwarven noble. Like Bhelen or not, he really did play the game better than anyone else and under that understanding was the best candidate for the throne.

 

[Pandabearparade]

The time to reform social policies in foreign lands is not when the big evil dragon wants to kill everyone. The casteless deserve better, but sadly the warden has more pressing concerns.

Like finding dead-lady-ashes. *facepalms*