Daily Mail Puts Two and Two Together, Gets Gay Spider-Man

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Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Logan Westbrook said:
Therumancer said:
The basic point here is that Spider-Man represents a very specific person, as opposed to a job description. Spider-Man is a white guy named Peter Parker. If Peter Parker dies, so does spidey.


Really, Marvel needs to pull a "Wildstorm" and create and support some entirely new characters, and leave the established characters alone.

Lots of heroes have very personal origins, and yet mantels get passed all the time. Batman has about as personal an origin story as you can get, and yet there have been at least three of them so far, as well as something like five or six Batgirls, and nearly as many Robins. Outside the Bat-family you've got all the different Flashes and Green Lanterns, and loads of other, less high-profile characters. Superman had four alternate versions at once for a while.

It's less common in Marvel comics, but again, it's not like it's never happened. Different people have worn the Captain America costume, the Iron Man costume, and yes, even the Spider-Man costume. We're up to Captain Marvel number six, by the way, and the second Human Torch died quite recently.

It's all well and good to say that the likes of DC and Marvel should leave established characters alone, but the fact of the matter is that they don't. In fact, they never stop messing around with them, and yet the world of comics remains white as the driven snow, with a few exceptions. The reason that anyone is reporting on the black/gay angle at all - and I'm including myself in that - is that it is almost unheard of for such a high profile character to be anything other than Caucasian, despite countless opportunities for more diversity over the years.
Well, there is a substantial differance in the origins of the characters that passed their mantles on than Spider Man. Spider Man is one dude who took on a costumed identity and has been a loner. The characters that have passed their mantles onto other heroes did so as part of some major event usually, before the status quo was reverted, OR passed it onto a sidekick that had been around for years beforehand. For example The Flash mantle passed on to "Kid Flash". Batman's mantle has passed to other characters like Azrael temporarily in the past, and so on.

One can't really say there is much of anything here but a PC attention grab, it's not like this new guy has spent a decade of comic's continuity running around as Kid Spidey or something and is having the mantle passed on after a long period of fan acceptance. That's incidently another common factor to things like having Rhodey fill in for Iron Man for a while, a character who was popular enough in his own right to get his own heroic identity even after the mantle reverted (like it always does).

As far as the comics landscape being "white as the driven snow", well that's debatable on a lot of levels, and to be honest you really have to be a kind of politically correct extremist to even see that as a bad thing to begin with. It's important to understand that while it might be changing as the Latino population grows to outnumber the whites, that whites ARE the majority in the US and have been for decades, it only makes sense that most characters created for a largely white audience and having adventures in a largely white society are going to be well... white. Seeing a major minority character once in a blue moon is a pretty accurate representation on a lot of levels, as the old "stereotype" of having a token minority member on every super team is still a massively disproportionate representation, and it gets kind of ridiculous when you start seeing every minority demanding that there be a character like them included. While uncommon, there have been black comic characters headlining for quite a while. Even if not everyone likes or accepts them, just mentioning Spawn, Storm, and Luke Cage is enough to point to a pretty fair representation given the relative population, especially as it's been over a number of decades.

What's more there is also the issue of the lack of minorities involved in things like writing and artwork. The lack of black, hispanic, indian, or whatever group characters has a lot to do with the lack of people in those groups creating them. Like it or not education is NOT a big deal to members of various minority groups, as Bill Cosby (PHD In Children's Education) has pointed out on numerous occasions, the big problem with Black America is Black America not wanting to assimilate into society and take advantage of the oppertuinities given to them. When becoming educated is seeing as a sign of "selling out" or becoming a Ho Ho (black on the outside, white on the inside) that right there explains a lot of the problems in society. People do things like line up to donate computers and textbooks to schools in poor ethnic neighborhoods, but when the people there vandalize, steal, and destroy them (oftentimes to make a point) it really doesn't matter. It's not a popular point with the left wing, but it touches on a LOT of issues. For blacks, and other minority groups, to have a bigger representation in the media, you need to see enough of them becoming educated, going into the arts, and them competing for those jobs. Just handing a guy a job for the sake of affrimitive action doesn't create a quality product that is going to succeed in the public. You need to have the tens of thousands who want to be creators of things like comic books, where like other fanboys the majority fail (for numerous reasons) but those tiny handfuls eventually crawl to the top of the rat race and put out the big products.

Politically correct pandering like making Spider Man a black/latino half breed does nothing except make a point for liberals to cheer to, and slot a lot of people in the core audience off. This isn't a character that was gradually developed to popularity that way. To see a real change and decent characters of thise sort is not something that can just be snapped into place, but something that has to happen over a period of decades once you have the basic artistic population in place.

To put things into perspective look at the representation that asians have in comics, and heck, fandom in general. That didn't happen overnight because some guy decided "oh hey, let's suddenly decide that Batman is now a Japanese guy", no it happened due to generations of artists working on comic books, cartoons, and sci-fi and fantasy shows. Japan moved slowly up from "Lol, that's pathetic" to producing a quality product which entered the international market. You started seeing more and more people from Asia in general getting involved, and now you see a lot of cross pollination between eastern manga and western comics with both influacing each other heavily (even if one can argue that Western fantasy inspired most Anime and Manga to begin with, but that's another discussion).

See, even if the Latino population manages to outnumber the white population in the next decade as many people predict, you aren't going to see major changes to the media and things like comics if none of those people are artists, writers, and creators.

Look at it this way, if you basically argue that most "serious" anime and manga started to become noticed in the 1980s by a western fringe, that's 30 years before we started to flat out see the influance that is present now. What this means is that if we were to start seeing some serious black and latino creators getting involved now, give them a say 5 years to start producing the basics, and then in another 30 years we might see some major characters like a "Spider Man" that are politically correct pandering (albiet it will be unique creations). Someone who is ultra left wing might blanch at the 30 year figure, not to mention the massive societal changes I'm talking about, but that's just the way things are. This kind of thing has to progressively develop over a period of time, stunts like the current one with Spider Man are just disgusting attempts at rabble rousing.

I'll be blunt, if Marvel wants to do some nice things for a minority prescene in comics, how about going out there to discover and recruit minority artists? Create some large scholorships with all of that massive movie money (if they are out there I don't know about them). Get kids thinking that they can make millions by being able to drawer or write really well as opposed to jump at a basketball hoop or rhyme to a beat. It might not get the same kind of liberal gawking and media attention, but it will have a hundred times the influance that a ridiculous stunt like this will.
 

Dr. wonderful

New member
Dec 31, 2009
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Logan Westbrook said:
Therumancer said:
The basic point here is that Spider-Man represents a very specific person, as opposed to a job description. Spider-Man is a white guy named Peter Parker. If Peter Parker dies, so does spidey.


Really, Marvel needs to pull a "Wildstorm" and create and support some entirely new characters, and leave the established characters alone.

Lots of heroes have very personal origins, and yet mantels get passed all the time. Batman has about as personal an origin story as you can get, and yet there have been at least three of them so far, as well as something like five or six Batgirls, and nearly as many Robins. Outside the Bat-family you've got all the different Flashes and Green Lanterns, and loads of other, less high-profile characters. Superman had four alternate versions at once for a while.

It's less common in Marvel comics, but again, it's not like it's never happened. Different people have worn the Captain America costume, the Iron Man costume, and yes, even the Spider-Man costume. We're up to Captain Marvel number six, by the way, and the second Human Torch died quite recently.
.
Not going to lie, No one told me that Human Torch died till last month. I was kind of pissed about that.

But you're right, there were a lot of Captain America and Iron-man Guys.
But my personal favorite is U.S Agent:



This guy was freaking amazing.
 

Dr. wonderful

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Dec 31, 2009
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MatthewGeer said:
Give it a year or two, and I bet we'll either find out there was one more Peter Parker clone left over from the Ultimate Clone Saga, or just pull Ultimate Scorpion out of his jar. (Actually, Scorpion vs the new Spider-Man could be interesting, given that in the Ultimate universe, Scorpion is an mentally unstable genetically modified clone of Peter Parker.)
...That would be awesome. Hell, I'll pay to see that, Hell I just want to see the other characters reactions. ESPECIALLY Johnny storm. That guy is going to go nuts.
 

KirbyKrackle

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Apr 25, 2011
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Jake Martinez said:
Some points:

1) The "Daily Fail" is just that. They are a joke and phrase things in a way to just be as sensationalist as possible. Kudos to the Escapist for pointing it out. Although more derision here would have been nice :)

2) This is the Ultimates Universe, not main Marvel Continuity. So... blah. It doesn't mean anything. Also, it's stupid in general. Most of the Ultimates universe is stupid. As you can imagine, I am not a fan and I don't buy the books because of it.

3) Whomever said Marvel panders to it's aging fans is retarded, especially in context of Spider-Man. Just go and google "one more day" or "brand new day" and you will see how the powers that be at Marvel have royally pissed off the majority of the older spiderman fans just to try and make the character "relevant" to the kiddies.

Frankly, the biggest problem with comics is that we have these character driven franchises that are just open ended until infinity. Someone makes a character like Spiderman and then they ride it for 60 years - there is only so much forward progression you can do with that and still keep it interesting. It's why there is no such thing as continuity in comics. It's why people die and then come back and then die again. It's why they reboot series and entire franchises from time to time.

It's really almost an American phenomina. No one wants to let old characters die and fade away. The companies want to milk the IP for all the money it's worth and the fans refuse to let the franchises die. I don't get it. I've loved plenty of comics in my life and I've also been experienced to Japanese Manga where the books have definite begining and ends, and I can say that happily I would follow a creator who makes good stories, rather than a specific series or character. I suppose that might be the difference - in Japan the manga is still driven by creators, in America, the comics are manufactured by companies who hire creators to write for a character.

Hmm, I've never thought of that before...
I agree with many of your points, especially the issue of characters going nowhere because they're not so much characters as franchises. You bring up an excellent complementary point to mine for why shit doesn't change in superhero comics. It's an interesting situation, isn't it, where you can have too much continuity in that events and characterizations will contradict each other constantly and yet no continuity in that no significant change is ever allowed to happen, or at least not allowed to happen for long. However, it's worth noting that the phenomenon you describe is more of a superhero genre thing, not an American comics thing.

Anyway, on the subject of the Spidey marriage: Yes, I'm sure it pissed off a lot of older fans, and I think Quesada did phrase it as a bold new direction or somesuch crap. However, it's worth noting that this "new" direction is really just a much older one (especially because the creators used a retcon to make it never happen rather than, say, a divorce). The Parker marriage happened in the late '80s, so OMD represents more of a return to the glorious Silver Age that we all must worship and never deviate from and hey how about that Barry Allen isn't he great...So yeah, I guess you've pushed me to clarify and qualify my point in that the it's not just the fans, it's many of the creators themselves who are the problem.
 

Saelune

Trump put kids in cages!
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Mar 8, 2011
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SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
Why the fuck is Spiderman black now anyway? Yeah yeah, diversity and tolerance and all that bullshit. Im all for them, but making Spiderman black? Seems like a marketing ploy more than anything else. But hell, they know it, I know it and everyone else does to. Just a shame this will probably flop in a horrible way.

EDIT: Oh, and I almost forgot. Daily Mail is always good for a laugh, but not much else. This is a fine example indeed.
Its not like they are just making him black. It is a different person. Its not the first time someone took up someone else's super hero mantle. Captain America, Iron Man/War Machine (white to black), Green Lantern (white to black), Spider-Woman.
 

MetaKnight19

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Jul 8, 2009
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SamStar42 said:
It's the Daily Mail. I'm surprised they didn't state the new Spidey was a gay Muslim immigrant who was living off benefits.
Damn, ninja'd. The Mail is always good for a laugh and it seems this is no exception.
 

ReservoirAngel

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Nov 6, 2010
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Doc Theta Sigma said:
There's a genuine comment on that article from someone that thinks this is pushing the gay agenda. From someone in the UK. The place where I was born. The Daily Mail doesn't report news. It tells stories.

Any other Brits that just feel ashamed to be a citizen sometimes?
Almost constantly.

Honestly I just get by through a system of self-enforced isolation, heavy drinking and thanking the lord that the Daily Mail isn't as crazy as Fox News is, or as powerful.
 

Cgull

Behind You
Oct 31, 2009
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I'm not sure why anyone would want to give The Daily Mail the benefit of the doubt, it's so far stuck in the 'good old days' (you know, homphobia, racism and death penalties for all!) that it can't manage to tell any story without some sort of sensationalist twist. Like any other paper really, just more abhorrent.

As for a black/gay Spider-Man, who really cares? It's a new character taking on the mantle not some weird re-iteration of the Peter Parker we all know and love (loved?), so no harm? Surely?
 

Fbuh

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Feb 3, 2009
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thiosk said:
Wait, so you mean spiderman is STRAIGHT?

Sheesh, way to misinterpret the character in the movies. I was convinced the kid was a total closet case.
No, that's just Tobey Maguire.

Anyway, it's kind of neat to see a super hero who isn't an emotionally distressed white teenager.
 

swtstar777

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Jul 27, 2009
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My question(s) are: How did they get 'gay' out of a mixed-race character? And; So what if he is gay?
 

Ickorus

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Isn't this new spiderman like a black clone of Peter Parker anyways? We'll see but I hope they don't try and skirt the issues lots of young black or hispanic americans have to deal with such as living in a slum with actve gangs and other such things, wouldn't it be cool if his coming of age thing was a gang trying to force him to join them and him declining and then perhaps gaining his powers so he can fight back against them?

I think they could make a very compelling storyline with this character that would be impossible with a white spiderman so fingers crossed he doesn't end up being a token black guy.
 

RDubayoo

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Sep 11, 2008
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Oh, wonderful. We finally have a diverse and tolerant Spiderman. All we had to do is kill off the previous one, because as we all know straight white males are not diverse and tolerant... and for that they must DIE.

Piss off, Marvel. I hope the whole Ultimate Universe gets canceled. It just might given what a catastrophic mess you've made of it, from what I hear.
 

AM City Watch

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Nov 10, 2010
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As somebody once said, "No one stays dead in comics except for Bucky, Uncle Ben, and Jason Todd."

Or something like that. The point is, Peter Parker will be back in a year, two at the most, regardless of who they bring in to fill his shoes.

(The Mail has already been thoroughly mocked in this thread, but allow me to add that "their average headline is 'Asylum Seekers Carry New Type of AIDs That Lowers House Prices.'")
 

Dastardly

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Apr 19, 2010
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Logan Westbrook said:
Daily Mail Puts Two and Two Together, Gets Gay Spider-Man
I think now might be an appropriate moment to bring back this. Don't pretend you don't remember.

And now, in a twist of fate, we have indeed made Spider-man gay.
 

RatRace123

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Dec 1, 2009
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RDubayoo said:
Piss off, Marvel. I hope the whole Ultimate Universe gets canceled. It just might given what a catastrophic mess you've made of it, from what I hear.
Oh, it is so much worse than what you've heard. At this point they're basically going through and offing all the characters who survived Ultimatum. I guess Peter Parker's another notch in that belt.
Shame too, I actually liked the ultimate universe before they killed half of its roster for no goddamn reason.
 

Logan Westbrook

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Feb 21, 2008
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Therumancer said:
Logan Westbrook said:
Therumancer said:
The basic point here is that Spider-Man represents a very specific person, as opposed to a job description. Spider-Man is a white guy named Peter Parker. If Peter Parker dies, so does spidey.


Really, Marvel needs to pull a "Wildstorm" and create and support some entirely new characters, and leave the established characters alone.

Lots of heroes have very personal origins, and yet mantels get passed all the time. Batman has about as personal an origin story as you can get, and yet there have been at least three of them so far, as well as something like five or six Batgirls, and nearly as many Robins. Outside the Bat-family you've got all the different Flashes and Green Lanterns, and loads of other, less high-profile characters. Superman had four alternate versions at once for a while.

It's less common in Marvel comics, but again, it's not like it's never happened. Different people have worn the Captain America costume, the Iron Man costume, and yes, even the Spider-Man costume. We're up to Captain Marvel number six, by the way, and the second Human Torch died quite recently.

It's all well and good to say that the likes of DC and Marvel should leave established characters alone, but the fact of the matter is that they don't. In fact, they never stop messing around with them, and yet the world of comics remains white as the driven snow, with a few exceptions. The reason that anyone is reporting on the black/gay angle at all - and I'm including myself in that - is that it is almost unheard of for such a high profile character to be anything other than Caucasian, despite countless opportunities for more diversity over the years.
Well, there is a substantial differance in the origins of the characters that passed their mantles on than Spider Man. Spider Man is one dude who took on a costumed identity and has been a loner. The characters that have passed their mantles onto other heroes did so as part of some major event usually, before the status quo was reverted, OR passed it onto a sidekick that had been around for years beforehand. For example The Flash mantle passed on to "Kid Flash". Batman's mantle has passed to other characters like Azrael temporarily in the past, and so on.

One can't really say there is much of anything here but a PC attention grab, it's not like this new guy has spent a decade of comic's continuity running around as Kid Spidey or something and is having the mantle passed on after a long period of fan acceptance. That's incidently another common factor to things like having Rhodey fill in for Iron Man for a while, a character who was popular enough in his own right to get his own heroic identity even after the mantle reverted (like it always does).

As far as the comics landscape being "white as the driven snow", well that's debatable on a lot of levels, and to be honest you really have to be a kind of politically correct extremist to even see that as a bad thing to begin with. It's important to understand that while it might be changing as the Latino population grows to outnumber the whites, that whites ARE the majority in the US and have been for decades, it only makes sense that most characters created for a largely white audience and having adventures in a largely white society are going to be well... white. Seeing a major minority character once in a blue moon is a pretty accurate representation on a lot of levels, as the old "stereotype" of having a token minority member on every super team is still a massively disproportionate representation, and it gets kind of ridiculous when you start seeing every minority demanding that there be a character like them included. While uncommon, there have been black comic characters headlining for quite a while. Even if not everyone likes or accepts them, just mentioning Spawn, Storm, and Luke Cage is enough to point to a pretty fair representation given the relative population, especially as it's been over a number of decades.

What's more there is also the issue of the lack of minorities involved in things like writing and artwork. The lack of black, hispanic, indian, or whatever group characters has a lot to do with the lack of people in those groups creating them. Like it or not education is NOT a big deal to members of various minority groups, as Bill Cosby (PHD In Children's Education) has pointed out on numerous occasions, the big problem with Black America is Black America not wanting to assimilate into society and take advantage of the oppertuinities given to them. When becoming educated is seeing as a sign of "selling out" or becoming a Ho Ho (black on the outside, white on the inside) that right there explains a lot of the problems in society. People do things like line up to donate computers and textbooks to schools in poor ethnic neighborhoods, but when the people there vandalize, steal, and destroy them (oftentimes to make a point) it really doesn't matter. It's not a popular point with the left wing, but it touches on a LOT of issues. For blacks, and other minority groups, to have a bigger representation in the media, you need to see enough of them becoming educated, going into the arts, and them competing for those jobs. Just handing a guy a job for the sake of affrimitive action doesn't create a quality product that is going to succeed in the public. You need to have the tens of thousands who want to be creators of things like comic books, where like other fanboys the majority fail (for numerous reasons) but those tiny handfuls eventually crawl to the top of the rat race and put out the big products.

Politically correct pandering like making Spider Man a black/latino half breed does nothing except make a point for liberals to cheer to, and slot a lot of people in the core audience off. This isn't a character that was gradually developed to popularity that way. To see a real change and decent characters of thise sort is not something that can just be snapped into place, but something that has to happen over a period of decades once you have the basic artistic population in place.

To put things into perspective look at the representation that asians have in comics, and heck, fandom in general. That didn't happen overnight because some guy decided "oh hey, let's suddenly decide that Batman is now a Japanese guy", no it happened due to generations of artists working on comic books, cartoons, and sci-fi and fantasy shows. Japan moved slowly up from "Lol, that's pathetic" to producing a quality product which entered the international market. You started seeing more and more people from Asia in general getting involved, and now you see a lot of cross pollination between eastern manga and western comics with both influacing each other heavily (even if one can argue that Western fantasy inspired most Anime and Manga to begin with, but that's another discussion).

See, even if the Latino population manages to outnumber the white population in the next decade as many people predict, you aren't going to see major changes to the media and things like comics if none of those people are artists, writers, and creators.

Look at it this way, if you basically argue that most "serious" anime and manga started to become noticed in the 1980s by a western fringe, that's 30 years before we started to flat out see the influance that is present now. What this means is that if we were to start seeing some serious black and latino creators getting involved now, give them a say 5 years to start producing the basics, and then in another 30 years we might see some major characters like a "Spider Man" that are politically correct pandering (albiet it will be unique creations). Someone who is ultra left wing might blanch at the 30 year figure, not to mention the massive societal changes I'm talking about, but that's just the way things are. This kind of thing has to progressively develop over a period of time, stunts like the current one with Spider Man are just disgusting attempts at rabble rousing.

I'll be blunt, if Marvel wants to do some nice things for a minority prescene in comics, how about going out there to discover and recruit minority artists? Create some large scholorships with all of that massive movie money (if they are out there I don't know about them). Get kids thinking that they can make millions by being able to drawer or write really well as opposed to jump at a basketball hoop or rhyme to a beat. It might not get the same kind of liberal gawking and media attention, but it will have a hundred times the influance that a ridiculous stunt like this will.

Y'know, I had a really long post here, but I realise that I'd just be wasting my breath because we have fundamentally different views on pretty much everything, and nothing short of a miracle is going to make us see eye-to-eye. With the exception of your point about the world of comic book creation needing to be diverse, I don't think I agreed with a single point you made. I'd debate it with you, but I don't really see the point. What I will say is that your post is dripping with privilege and prejudice. Suggesting that minorities, and specifically African Americans, need to start doing more to help themselves is a gross oversimplification of a very complex situation, a point that people have made about Cosby's views in the past.

Returning briefly to the issue of superheroes, I really don't think it would kill you to share a few of your toys. You could make half of all the superheroes in the world black, hispanic, gay, or whatever else takes your fancy, and still have enough books about straight, white guys that you could read a different one on every day of the year. You say that giving established characters new ethnicities would put off a large part of the core audience, and maybe you're right, but it works both ways. If black superheroes are off-putting to white people, imagine the effect that the all the white superheroes have on black people, and then ask yourself why the world of comic creation isn't more diverse.