Dalisclock completes the Metal Gear Series with some of his sanity intact

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I suspect it was supposed to sow doubt in our minds if any of it was real.

Yup. MGS2 schtick, apart from the post-modernist deconstruction, is that the last 1/3rd or so is all about sowing doubts about the reality of anything in the game. All Raiden's talk about VR training and how it is just like real life? What if the entire mission is a giant VR exercise and he doesn't know it? Solidus talk about Raiden as a child soldier, is it true or just an attempt to make Raiden doubt everything he knows (isn't it odd how even Raiden seems surprised at that revelation?)? This is also where the oddity of Rose perhaps not being real and Raiden maybe not meeting her at all comes in, as well as the overt scenario similarities to MGS.

MGS2 has been remembered for its' deconstruction, meta layer and player punch, but the actual plot is about the inability to distinguish fiction from reality in VR. Fortune's "power" ties into this, as does the unending stream of RAYs that serves as the actual skill test final boss and the ending where people walk the street despite the weaponized Big Shell having crashed into Manhattan. It is a story that holds up badly and frankly is a bit too much up its' own ass, especially when Kojima is also trying to deliver a deconstruction of MGS and a take-that at MGS fans. MGS2 would have been well served by an editor that would have forced Kojima to cut some of the main plot lines out, because the VR plot line never gets satisfactorily resolved, even as it serves as the vehicle for the deconstruction.

 

[Hawki]

I'm a little way into MSG3 and I've just finished Virtuous Mission

Virtuous Mission?!

(Sorry, it got me that we couldn't even get five minutes into MGS3 without Snake repeating everything Zero says).

"On Site Procurement".

Ah yes. That.

As you point out, it seems redundant in the context of MGS1, considering that Liquid is gonna have a pretty good idea of what the US's next move would be. I also can't remember if it was mentioned for Raiden in MGS2 (Snake having just a tranq makes sense in the context). But MGS3, as you say, the helmet has "US ARMY" on it. Um, guys? Think you missed something?! Guys?!

Though to be fair, it's probably far enough away from Sokolov's site that the chances of finding it were deemed low, but even so, was a new paintjob too much to ask?

 

[Dalisclock]

I'm a little way into MSG3 and I've just finished Virtuous Mission

Virtuous Mission?!

(Sorry, it got me that we couldn't even get five minutes into MGS3 without Snake repeating everything Zero says).

It's not only Snake either. It's quite a few other characters do it too. I can't tell if it's a translation issue, part of Kojima's writing style or he's just aware of the of the whole joke so much that he keeps doing the Parrot Exposition thing(I'm still kinda sad that it's not called "Metal Gearing" anymore).

Though Snake is definitely his fathers son, based on what I've seen of Big Boss/Naked Snake so far. I know he won't be Big Boss for a while(and won't meet Snake for another 3 decades or so) but it's hard not to think of him as "Young Big Boss".

 

[Dalisclock]

So I'm getting pretty far into Snake Eater and there's one thing that's kinda bugging me. Namely the Shagohod. I get that they wanted to show a Prototype Metal Gear(which is where the trend of showing Metal Gear type weapons starting 30 years before the TX-55 started), but the Shagohod doesn't seem to make much sense.

If I understood it correctly, the idea is that they wanted a mobile nuclear launching system, so they built a tank, put rocket boosters on it and then designed it to fire a small nuclear missile once the tank reaches 300 or so mph. I'm not a math whiz or a rocket science, but I do know a decent amount about how rockets actually work and Shagohod doesn't seem like it would actually do what it's supposed to. Accelerating to 300 mph gives the rocket a bit of a speed boost, sure, but that boost is aimed mostly horizontally and thus not actually negating much the air resistance that the first stage of a suborbital rocket needs to overcome.

There's also the problem of the rocket needing to be aimed fairly correctly towards the target and considering the thing needs about 3 miles of traversable ground to reach that speed, that might be a tall order. Sure you might find 3 miles, but those 3 miles might be pointed 90 degrees from the target.

And if it's the speed boost that makes the difference, why not just launch it from a bomber(like the TU-95) which can fly 500 or so mph at a fairly high altitude and changing heading far more easily then a tank? It seems like Volgin wasted a ton of money on finding a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Yeah, I'm probably overthinking this, especially since I've long since made piece with the whole "Nuclear armed walking tank" concept(though I personally think the actual ranges those things are a threat at was highly overestimated(The box launchers on the first two look like they're basically carrying nuclear tipped cruise missles). So far REX is the only one that kinda works, by virtue of the railgun.

Anyway, I should be done with Snake Eater and have the write up done by New Years.

 

[Hawki]

"Shagohod?!"

...yeah, doesn't have the same ring to it. But, anyway, this being Metal Gear, just go with it. Snake Eater has to sell us on pyrokinetics, psychics, and wasp...ics...before even getting to where the Shagohod is stored. Doesn't stop it from being my favorite Metal Gear game though.

 

[Dalisclock]

"Shagohod?!"

...yeah, doesn't have the same ring to it. But, anyway, this being Metal Gear, just go with it. Snake Eater has to sell us on pyrokinetics, psychics, and wasp...ics...before even getting to where the Shagohod is stored. Doesn't stop it from being my favorite Metal Gear game though.

Oh, I'm enjoying the hell out of it. The whole Shagohod thing was just irrating my inner physics nerd(Interstellar was difficult to sit through for similar reasons). And I totally realize how weird it sounds to criticize that and not the guy who is COVERED IN BEES or the Sniper who apparently is full of moss or the creepy ass Spider/Predator guy(The Fury is a guy with a jet pack and a flamethrower, except when he's a flaming skull because why not). I guess because I've gotten used to Weird-ass bosses for reasons(Usually NANOMACHINES, but apparently it becomes Parasites or something later).

Hell, there's even that whole joke about Snake eating the glowing mushrooms and it recharging his batteries(which may be one of the most amusing CODEC conversations ever).

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Hell, there's even that whole joke about Snake eating the glowing mushrooms and it recharging his batteries(which may be one of the most amusing CODEC conversations ever).

Do yourself a service: Hide in the cardboard box and call SIGINT.

 

[Dalisclock]

"Shagohod?!"

...yeah, doesn't have the same ring to it. But, anyway, this being Metal Gear, just go with it. Snake Eater has to sell us on pyrokinetics, psychics, and wasp...ics...before even getting to where the Shagohod is stored. Doesn't stop it from being my favorite Metal Gear game though.

Oh, I'm enjoying the hell out of it. The whole Shagohod thing was just irrating my inner physics nerd(Interstellar was difficult to sit through for similar reasons). And I totally realize how weird it sounds to criticize that and not the guy who is COVERED IN BEES or the Sniper who apparently is full of moss or the creepy ass Spider/Predator guy(The Fury is a guy with a jet pack and a flamethrower, except when he's a flaming skull because why not). I guess because I've gotten used to Weird-ass bosses for reasons(Usually NANOMACHINES, but apparently it becomes Parasites or something later).

Hell, there's even that whole joke about Snake eating the glowing mushrooms and it recharging his batteries(which may be one of the most amusing CODEC conversations ever).

There?s a book called The Science of Interstellar in which Kip Thorne (being a theoretical physicist) basically admits a lot of it is high level speculation; as in ?extremely unlikely?, but still not thoroughly disproven or impossible. Pretty interesting discussions involving wormholes, blackholes, warped time, quantum gravity, singularities, etc. Might be worth checking out to make the movie?s themes a bit more palatable.


On topic, yeah MGS3 Snake Eater is in my top five all time modern favorites. I know by this point Kojima basically said screw it regarding his more eccentric themes in response to MGS2 critics, but the setting, gameplay and characters are still outstanding.

Pointer: playing non-lethally will make a later section much more manageable.

 

[Dalisclock]

There?s a book called The Science of Interstellar in which Kip Thorne (being a theoretical physicist) basically admits a lot of it is high level speculation; as in ?extremely unlikely?, but still not thoroughly disproven or impossible. Pretty interesting discussions involving wormholes, blackholes, warped time, quantum gravity, singularities, etc. Might be worth checking out to make the movie?s themes a bit more palatable.


On topic, yeah MGS3 Snake Eater is in my top five all time modern favorites. I know by this point Kojima basically said screw it regarding his more eccentric themes in response to MGS2 critics, but the setting, gameplay and characters are still outstanding.

Pointer: playing non-lethally will make a later section much more manageable.

I have a passing knowledge of advanced physics from reading Hawking's books, so I got the concepts they were trying to convey. I just didn't think they did a good job at it. It felt like it was really trying to be 2001 but without the directing or writing to pull it off.

I've already met The Sorrow, but thanks for the advice anyway. I got spoiled about that particular encounter a long time ago(not even trying to) because it's one of those Iconic video game moments that gets brought up a lot, especially when talking about making characters/players consider the consequences of their actions. Though I've also been trying to play non-lethally since MGS2, because I kinda like role playing as "Kill only if I have to survive" in these types of games. I played Dishonored the same way.

 

[Hawki]

I see people are talking about The Sorrow. Truth be told, while I think it's a very powerful scene, and a great case of story-gameplay integration, it never hit me in the way I felt it should...sort of. I will say though that I was surprised as to how many ghosts I had to deal with. I didn't think I'd killed too many people, since I always favor the stealth approach in Metal Gear games, but even then, apparently I'd killed quite a few people.

One thing though, I got stuck on the end a few times, when the Sorrow zaps you. I had to look up that you needed to use your wake-up pill (I mean, does anyone actually use the temporary sleeping agent ever in the game, except perhaps in the Gorznygrad cell?)

 

[Casual Shinji]

It is a story that holds up badly and frankly is a bit too much up its' own ass, especially when Kojima is also trying to deliver a deconstruction of MGS and a take-that at MGS fans.

This was my biggest issue with MGS2. I mean, the game at one point literally turns to the viewer gamer and says they tried to recapture the magic of MGS1, but failed. And that's what the whole game (minus the Tanker section) feels like. Apparently deliberately. Gee, thanks Kojima. Thanks for putting your need to express your concern over your own inadequacies to follow up MGS1 over the need of the audience.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

"Shagohod?!"

...yeah, doesn't have the same ring to it. But, anyway, this being Metal Gear, just go with it. Snake Eater has to sell us on pyrokinetics, psychics, and wasp...ics...before even getting to where the Shagohod is stored. Doesn't stop it from being my favorite Metal Gear game though.

Oh, I'm enjoying the hell out of it. The whole Shagohod thing was just irrating my inner physics nerd(Interstellar was difficult to sit through for similar reasons). And I totally realize how weird it sounds to criticize that and not the guy who is COVERED IN BEES or the Sniper who apparently is full of moss or the creepy ass Spider/Predator guy(The Fury is a guy with a jet pack and a flamethrower, except when he's a flaming skull because why not). I guess because I've gotten used to Weird-ass bosses for reasons(Usually NANOMACHINES, but apparently it becomes Parasites or something later).

Hell, there's even that whole joke about Snake eating the glowing mushrooms and it recharging his batteries(which may be one of the most amusing CODEC conversations ever).

Is Metal Gear REX's nuclear capabilities more plausible than the Shagohod?

 

[Dalisclock]

Is Metal Gear REX's nuclear capabilities more plausible than the Shagohod?

Let me put it this way. I can buy using a railgun to fire a nuclear warhead long distances(along with the lack of a heat bloom that would come with an ICBM launch) then putting rocket boosters on a tank and then firing what's still essentially a Short Range Ballistic Missile(SRBM) and expecting it to reach another continent.

Shagohod comes across as a really expensive and over engineered version of the FROG or SCUD mobile launcher, not to mention having the downside of a bomber(lot of fuel and a long runway required) without any of the advantages. The Soviets in 1964 already have both mobile missile launchers and bombers that can do the same job better and cheaper, so thus, why Shagohod? I can see why Granin was pissed(in more ways then one).

In all fairness, the first two Metal Gear projects(TX-55 and D) are also overengineered SRBM launchers, except with legs and more armor(so presumably can traverse a better range of terrain and can defend themselves better).

 

[Comic Sans]

Is Metal Gear REX's nuclear capabilities more plausible than the Shagohod?

Let me put it this way. I can buy using a railgun to fire a nuclear warhead long distances(along with the lack of a heat bloom that would come with an ICBM launch) then putting rocket boosters on a tank and then firing what's still essentially a Short Range Ballistic Missile(SRBM) and expecting it to reach another continent.

Shagohod comes across as a really expensive and over engineered version of the FROG or SCUD mobile launcher, not to mention having the downside of a bomber(lot of fuel and a long runway required) without any of the advantages. The Soviets in 1964 already have both mobile missile launchers and bombers that can do the same job better and cheaper, so thus, why Shagohod? I can see why Granin was pissed(in more ways then one).

In all fairness, the first two Metal Gear projects(TX-55 and D) are also overengineered SRBM launchers, except with legs and more armor(so presumably can traverse a better range of terrain and can defend themselves better).

If I recall correctly, the advantage of the Shagohod over a bomber or something is that it could fire a nuclear ICBM that could reach another continent without being easily detected. While the long runway that is needed is a big downside, the Shagohod itself is easy to hide and was built to be hard to detect. So you can transport it somewhere via helicopter, launch a sudden, hard to detect ICBM at another country/continent, then move it somewhere else. It functions like REX but uses acceleration instead of a rail gun to get around the usual nuclear deterrents. I believe it also gets implied that the reason they used the Shagohod instead of attempting Granin's Metal Gear idea was that they had the ability to make the Shagohod NOW rather than wait for something else to be developed. It's all rather silly but that's Metal Gear from you, and we love it for that.

 

[Dalisclock]

Is Metal Gear REX's nuclear capabilities more plausible than the Shagohod?

Let me put it this way. I can buy using a railgun to fire a nuclear warhead long distances(along with the lack of a heat bloom that would come with an ICBM launch) then putting rocket boosters on a tank and then firing what's still essentially a Short Range Ballistic Missile(SRBM) and expecting it to reach another continent.

Shagohod comes across as a really expensive and over engineered version of the FROG or SCUD mobile launcher, not to mention having the downside of a bomber(lot of fuel and a long runway required) without any of the advantages. The Soviets in 1964 already have both mobile missile launchers and bombers that can do the same job better and cheaper, so thus, why Shagohod? I can see why Granin was pissed(in more ways then one).

In all fairness, the first two Metal Gear projects(TX-55 and D) are also overengineered SRBM launchers, except with legs and more armor(so presumably can traverse a better range of terrain and can defend themselves better).

If I recall correctly, the advantage of the Shagohod over a bomber or something is that it could fire a nuclear ICBM that could reach another continent without being easily detected. While the long runway that is needed is a big downside, the Shagohod itself is easy to hide and was built to be hard to detect. So you can transport it somewhere via helicopter, launch a sudden, hard to detect ICBM at another country/continent, then move it somewhere else. It functions like REX but uses acceleration instead of a rail gun to get around the usual nuclear deterrents. I believe it also gets implied that the reason they used the Shagohod instead of attempting Granin's Metal Gear idea was that they had the ability to make the Shagohod NOW rather than wait for something else to be developed. It's all rather silly but that's Metal Gear from you, and we love it for that.

I know. I keep having to remind myself it's basically the "prototype" grandfather of the Metal Gear weapons, so they had to come up with something kinda plausible and yet recognizable of filling that same niche as a Metal Gear. I think it's because Snake Eater feels less "Sci-Fi" then then other games in the series(especially the Solid ones) even though that's pretty much what the series is half the time.

Edit: I've fought and beaten shagohod and I withdraw most of my complaint, on the grounds that the Shagohod comes across as so ridiculous for most of the fight that it's hard to take any of it seriously. Something about Shagohod thrashing about during the chase like an excited toddler makes it almost impossible to think of it as a military doomsday weapon.

Oh Kojima, never change.

 

[Dalisclock]

It is a story that holds up badly and frankly is a bit too much up its' own ass, especially when Kojima is also trying to deliver a deconstruction of MGS and a take-that at MGS fans.

This was my biggest issue with MGS2. I mean, the game at one point literally turns to the viewer gamer and says they tried to recapture the magic of MGS1, but failed. And that's what the whole game (minus the Tanker section) feels like. Apparently deliberately. Gee, thanks Kojima. Thanks for putting your need to express your concern over your own inadequacies to follow up MGS1 over the need of the audience.

I've gotten the impression from some of what I've read that Kojima might have been having a breakdown of sorts at the time. Apparently(sadly I don't have anything concrete to confirm it) there some desperation on the team to match or exceed the sucess of MGS and they clearly didn't know how to do so, so some of the wierder bits of the game were throwing shit at the wall and seeing what stuck.

MGS was a bit of a victim of it's own success here. Kojima happily cribbed a lot from the previous 2 MG games(especially MG2) to make MGS and he got away with it because MG and MG2 weren't really well known outside of Japan. If you hadn't played the NES port of Metal Gear or had an MSX, MGS was likely your first Metal Gear game and introduction to Solid Snake. In MGS2, he still tried to crib from the previous game and this time made up a meta reason to justify it.

Even Snake Eater has this issue. As great a game as it is, it owes a lot to the Earlier MG titles for the MSX in it's overall design, down to re-purposing (justifiably) forgotten bosses of MG/MG2 for the Cobras. The difference is that in MGS3, he figured out how to recycle(or possibly reboot) his previous work to make it feel fresh and exciting, whereas MGS2 not so much.

Going along with this is the constant theme I've seen that Kojima was clearly interested in being finished with the series and didn't want to make another one, so the weirdness and gainex ending of MGS2 might have bee a "Springtime for Hitler" moment where he was hoping to crash the series so hard he wouldn't have to make another one.

That's my take on it based on what I've seen from the games so far and what I've read about the events surrounding them.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Just popping in since I'm a pretty big MGS as that's what the "mgs" in my name is reference to.

-The Shagohod makes no sense just in the simplest understanding of physics.

-MGS2 did Bioshock better and before Bioshock, it is quite the masterpiece to this day. The story is even more poignant today than it was when it released. Kojima predicted a lot concerning information's affect on people, the Patriots were right. Whereas Bioshock just has some decent game commentary revolving around the dumbest assassination plot probably ever written.

 

[Hawki]

Just popping in since I'm a pretty big MGS as that's what the "mgs" in my name is reference to.

So what about the phoenix part?

-MGS2 did Bioshock better and before Bioshock, it is quite the masterpiece to this day. The story is even more poignant today than it was when it released. Kojima predicted a lot concerning information's affect on people, the Patriots were right. Whereas Bioshock just has some decent game commentary revolving around the dumbest assassination plot probably ever written.

Can't say I agree. I think both games are good, even if BioShock is better, but gameplay differences aside, their themes/ideas are different. There's arguably similarities between Raiden/Jack and...um, "Jack," in regards to how they're manipulated by those around them, but in terms of settings/ideas, the takes are different. MGS2 does feel relevant in regards to its take on information control and information overload, with people today obsessing over the most trivial of things. BioShock however is a skewering of libertarianism/Randism/laise faire capitalism, its core idea being that a society without some level of control is doomed to collapse (if anything, MGS2 is about the dangers of too much control, BioShock is about the dangers of not enough control). BioShock has a fantastical setting, but its warnings are still relevant to a world where people still advocate for laise faire capitalism and reductions in government control.

But on a related note, I will concede that Fontaine's plan to use Jack relied on a lot of luck to execute. Then again, I wonder what the Patriots' plan was if Raiden bit the bullet.

 

[Zombie Proof]

"Shagohod?!"

...yeah, doesn't have the same ring to it. But, anyway, this being Metal Gear, just go with it. Snake Eater has to sell us on pyrokinetics, psychics, and wasp...ics...before even getting to where the Shagohod is stored. Doesn't stop it from being my favorite Metal Gear game though.

Oh, I'm enjoying the hell out of it. The whole Shagohod thing was just irrating my inner physics nerd(Interstellar was difficult to sit through for similar reasons). And I totally realize how weird it sounds to criticize that and not the guy who is COVERED IN BEES or the Sniper who apparently is full of moss or the creepy ass Spider/Predator guy(The Fury is a guy with a jet pack and a flamethrower, except when he's a flaming skull because why not). I guess because I've gotten used to Weird-ass bosses for reasons(Usually NANOMACHINES, but apparently it becomes Parasites or something later).

Hell, there's even that whole joke about Snake eating the glowing mushrooms and it recharging his batteries(which may be one of the most amusing CODEC conversations ever).

I know what you mean. I love Snake Eater as well but Motorcycle Titty Girl is still a tough pill for me to swallow. I hate the idea of her "stealthily" riding a motorcycle through the jungle with her titties out *eyeroll*

 

[Dalisclock]

"Shagohod?!"

...yeah, doesn't have the same ring to it. But, anyway, this being Metal Gear, just go with it. Snake Eater has to sell us on pyrokinetics, psychics, and wasp...ics...before even getting to where the Shagohod is stored. Doesn't stop it from being my favorite Metal Gear game though.

Oh, I'm enjoying the hell out of it. The whole Shagohod thing was just irrating my inner physics nerd(Interstellar was difficult to sit through for similar reasons). And I totally realize how weird it sounds to criticize that and not the guy who is COVERED IN BEES or the Sniper who apparently is full of moss or the creepy ass Spider/Predator guy(The Fury is a guy with a jet pack and a flamethrower, except when he's a flaming skull because why not). I guess because I've gotten used to Weird-ass bosses for reasons(Usually NANOMACHINES, but apparently it becomes Parasites or something later).

Hell, there's even that whole joke about Snake eating the glowing mushrooms and it recharging his batteries(which may be one of the most amusing CODEC conversations ever).

I know what you mean. I love Snake Eater as well but Motorcycle Titty Girl is still a tough pill for me to swallow. I hate the idea of her "stealthily" riding a motorcycle through the jungle with her titties out *eyeroll*

Yeah, I get the seductress part of her character(Though Snake did a much better job of seducing her without even trying). I don't see how that means she's gonna ride around on a motorcycle with her chest exposed all of the time.

I keep seeing that and commenting "Aren't you cold?" and "Are your coveralls too tight or something?"