Dalisclock completes the Metal Gear Series with some of his sanity intact

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stroopwafel

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Dalisclock said:
Big Boss is just kinda there and looks like he's either sleepy or dead inside like 90% of the time. I really do miss him actually emoting and talking about stuff and being incredibly dorky and naive about weird shit(Like being a middle aged man who is really into Cardboard boxes or believes in Santa Claus).
Atleast watch the ending of the game on youtube lol. I think MGS5 is pretty much the best open world stealth game with some truly immaculate gameplay mechanics but yeah; story has intriguing premise but fails in it's execution by being cut short and disjointed, a stupid cast, an open world that consists of mostly empty space that takes ages to traverse, a cumbersome base management simulator that you can 'automate' but what's the point, every mission is a variation of the same thing with locations being re-used over and over.

MGS5 is in that weird situation where the gameplay mechanics feel like they have been polished years on end but the actual game itself(that should give the mechanics meaning and entertainment and provide a cohesive whole) feels like it was hastily put together in a few weeks. Usually with Kojima games it's the other way around. MGS4 felt like a rehashed Syphon Filter but it was indulgent and overproduced to the max. :p
 

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stroopwafel said:
Dalisclock said:
Big Boss is just kinda there and looks like he's either sleepy or dead inside like 90% of the time. I really do miss him actually emoting and talking about stuff and being incredibly dorky and naive about weird shit(Like being a middle aged man who is really into Cardboard boxes or believes in Santa Claus).
Atleast watch the ending of the game on youtube lol.
Yeah, I already know the reveal about Venom. I knew about it before I even started this grand adventure. I was just kind of hoping that they'd do something interesting with it and yet it seems like the fact Venom almost never talks might as well be a big spoiler right there.

The fact "Ishmael" has to teach "Big Boss" how to do a bunch of stuff Snake has canonically already known how to do for decades now(Snapping his arm back into place during the Virtuous Mission) and Ishmael also has the exact same voice was a bit of a giveaway as well.

I'm not even mad about the fact Venom is not who you're supposed to think he is, because it's already established that Big Boss is as much reputation as actual deed at this point(and that's always been part of his character. He does amazing shit, and then rumor on top of that makes him a Living Legend). I'm just annoyed that not much is actually done with it, just a brief echo of some of his character beats from Peace Walker(when he bothers to talk at all).

It really does feel like they took Peace Walker, started remaking it with a really awesome game engine and huge map, then started grabbing some of the worst science from the series(Parasites aren't as omnipresent as nanomachines but they are just as stupid) and inserting a lot of fan service. That whole "linking back to Metal Gear" thing apparently only really happens at the end.

OTOH, at least this video now makes a lot more sense. It turns out that Big Boss is really just tired all the time.

 

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As others have said, if you're not enjoying the game now then it really doesn't get any better. I like the game but damn it gets really repetitive. Maybe it's my own fault for really wanting to upgrade my base and gear but having to be so reliant on getting new guys in the field makes the game more boring. You get so many toys but using them seems counter productive if you wanna be stealthy and/or get new guys to upgrade your base. Why take that awesome shotgun or grenade launcher unless you are planning on going loud and killing absolutely everyone? I found myself taking the same silenced assault rifle and tranq pistol on every mission, relying on CQC to take out armored guys that my guns couldn't handle. Killing troops feels wasteful as you are hurting yourself not capturing them. The game creates a weird feedback loop where you capture guys to get more fun toys, but can't use those toys because they stop you from capturing guys to make better toys. I got into Act 2 and then not long later put the game down, and haven't gone back since.

Have you been listening to the tapes for the story? If so what do you think of them compared to CODEC calls and cutscenes?
 

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Comic Sans said:
Have you been listening to the tapes for the story? If so what do you think of them compared to CODEC calls and cutscenes?

I have. I do prefer them to MGS2 constantly pausing the action so I can listen to people explain things to Snake/Raiden and even MGS4 just forcing you to sit down and watch some really long cut-scenes that mostly don't explain much.

I'm of two minds of the MGSV cutscenes. On one hand, they look good and the cinematography on some of them is excellent. On the other, some of them feel way too fucking long(that one with Skull Face and Big Boss when Skull Face is monolouging for what feels like forever). Beyond that, a lot of the criticisms I do have are more a matter of the script then anything else.
 

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I do like that you can listen to them while on the move, especially given how much pointless travel time there is from place to place. What bugged the shit out of me is that they nearly completely removed cutscenes for it. While MGS2 and 4 were too indulgent, without them they don't feel like MGS. It also means you don't get any context for what you are doing. In past MGS I would have the option of CODEC calls to learn more about what I want, and the game always made sure to explain things as they became relevant, if too much at times. For some reason MGS5 really holds back on info until well after the fact. I didn't know almost anything in depth about Skull Face or the parasites until long after it was relevant. It feels like a lazy way to add story without having to try and actually write it into the game experience. Just listening to audio recordings sometimes makes scenes lose impact as well. Some of them are quite emotional and actually SEEING these important characters interacting could have been amazing. Instead you just sit and listen and it has little to no impact. To say nothing of the often entertaining situational CODEC calls we lose.

And call me pedantic but I really wonder where the fuck Snake gets some of these recordings. I get the stuff that goes on in the base and reports to Snake, but random talks between Skull Face and Code Talker? The Zero tapes you get after the Venom reveal? Miller's burgers? It kinda bugged me.
 

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Comic Sans said:
I do like that you can listen to them while on the move, especially given how much pointless travel time there is from place to place. What bugged the shit out of me is that they nearly completely removed cutscenes for it. While MGS2 and 4 were too indulgent, without them they don't feel like MGS. It also means you don't get any context for what you are doing. In past MGS I would have the option of CODEC calls to learn more about what I want, and the game always made sure to explain things as they became relevant, if too much at times. For some reason MGS5 really holds back on info until well after the fact. I didn't know almost anything in depth about Skull Face or the parasites until long after it was relevant. It feels like a lazy way to add story without having to try and actually write it into the game experience. Just listening to audio recordings sometimes makes scenes lose impact as well. Some of them are quite emotional and actually SEEING these important characters interacting could have been amazing. Instead you just sit and listen and it has little to no impact. To say nothing of the often entertaining situational CODEC calls we lose.

And call me pedantic but I really wonder where the fuck Snake gets some of these recordings. I get the stuff that goes on in the base and reports to Snake, but random talks between Skull Face and Code Talker? The Zero tapes you get after the Venom reveal? Miller's burgers? It kinda bugged me.
I know what you mean. I kinda missed in the earlier games(everything up through Snake Eater) where you could call up different people to get different conversations and it would change depending on the context(SIGIT talking about the cardboard box making Snake look like a dumbass, etc), and while the Tapes are kinda nice for background info, they don't have quite the same feel to them.

And honestly, I'm still kinda annoyed they haven't really explained what Ocelot was doing in the 20 years since Snake Eater or foreshadow what he will be doing in the next 20 years before he shows up again at Shadow Moses. That and how I keep thinking that shouldn't it at least be mentioned that Ocelot is the one who shot Snakes Eye out? Because if I were Snake, I'd be annoyed at ocelot over that.

I've realized one of the other problems with MGSV that MGS4 also has. Essentially, it tries to be dark and serious despite the fact this series has always been campy as hell and it feels jarring. Hell, every scene with Eli, who ends up being one of the campiest villians in the series "BROTTHEERRRRR!" feels like it doesn't work because it's kinda obvious it's child Liquid. Sorry, Eli, I know you think you're tough and a grown up, but last time I saw you, you were ranting about your "recessive genes" and pretending you were the Terminator "It's not over yet, Snake!"

And again, this Ocelot feels out of character with the Russian Cowboy Triple Agent Super Troll who is either moewing like a cat, trying to play russian roulette with 3 guns or Pretending he's possessed by Liquids clone arm.
 

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Dalisclock said:
Couple thoughts so far:

This game might be too big. Because I'm starting to get some fatigue setting in here. I'm not sure if it's because I've pretty much been playing Metal Gear games for the past 6 or so months and it's finally catching up with me or what but the game is starting to feel grindy. The last chapter of Peace Walker was grindy too but by that point 90% of the plot was done and you were kinda fucking around after that building your base and seeing if there was something else to discover. Maybe it's because I'm doing side ops for GMP and high ranking people to kidnap...er, recruit but cotinually visiting the same locations over and over again is starting to get a bit tedius.

The other thing is....Quiet. So on one hand, she's a great combat buddy, especially once the "Cover me" command is unlocked where she will basically go to town on an entire base leaving you to more or less do what you please. Esspecially in side ops where getting spotted or killing people doesn't really matter.

As a character, however, she's kind of all over the place. Her narrative comes across as someone who isn't supposed to be sexy, except since she dresses like a stripper whose g-string got torn up in the wash and she apparently doesn't have anything else to wear, and she basically does a stripper dance in the rain, shower or helicopter because she's infected with magical parasites that causes her to want to sexy dance in front of big boss, because Kojima is apparently a 12 year old.

However, there's no reason I can tell why she wants to go out hunting with Big Boss when her first few appearances involve her killing medical staff as part of a XOF hit team, trying to kill a bedridden man and then trying to kill you in a sniper ambush. But if Big Boss spares her life after dropping a couple boxes on her he.....er, beating her a in sniper duel. Suddendly she's totally on your side, more then willing to show off that she can't be restrained by her cage or handcuffs and then putting her life on the line for Big Boss because......she digs his eyepatch? Everyone loves Big Boss? I have no clue, because everyone else you meet from XOF is a total bastard more then willing to insert bolts into the ankles of children, torture people and wipe out an entire hospital full of people to kill one fucking guy. So it's hard to imagine Quiet is different, even before she got set on fire and fell out a window.

Yeah, I'm still trying to square quiet going from XOF pyschopath with standing orders to kill big boss(and having a personal bone to pick due to the whole "being set on fire and falling out a window" thing to being Snakes personal escort who wants to do helicopter sexy dances in front of him.

Because when has MGS ever taken things that seriously is basically why. I never try and rationalize the irrational when it comes to Kojima, because for every intriguing story beat he poses, there is another gameplay one that completely dismantles the facade. His fourth wall stuff would be the high points, but of course he doesn't always hit that level of chin-rubbing awe.

Anyways, if I were going to attempt to rationalize it in this case, it would be that Quiet was patiently waiting for an excuse to defect. She was doing the bidding of a group that ultimately was responsible for her traumatic condition, and once she was bested by Big Boss (regardless of if she knew of his true identity, although it's likely she didn't), she found that excuse. This is basically "proven" by the fact that she saved his life on the ride to mother base.

Then there's this [http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Quiet] of course, a few paragraphs down next to the image of her interrogation, but not sure when or how she ended up becoming so. The why should be pretty obvious. It might also suggest that XOF had some psychological hold on her until she was knocked out, or the effects of her condition simply left her a bit...eccentric.
Why she would go from one extreme to another could be pondered indefinitely, but definitely not surprising given how deep and twisted the whole series' cast of characters has always been.
 

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hanselthecaretaker said:
Because when has MGS ever taken things that seriously is basically why. I never try and rationalize the irrational when it comes to Kojima, because for every intriguing story beat he poses, there is another gameplay one that completely dismantles the facade. His fourth wall stuff would be the high points, but of course he doesn't always hit that level of chin-rubbing awe.

Anyways, if I were going to attempt to rationalize it in this case, it would be that Quiet was patiently waiting for an excuse to defect. She was doing the bidding of a group that ultimately was responsible for her traumatic condition, and once she was bested by Big Boss (regardless of if she knew of his true identity, although it's likely she didn't), she found that excuse. This is basically "proven" by the fact that she saved his life on the ride to mother base.

Then there's this [http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Quiet] of course, a few paragraphs down next to the image of her interrogation, but not sure when or how she ended up becoming so. The why should be pretty obvious. It might also suggest that XOF had some psychological hold on her until she was knocked out, or the effects of her condition simply left her a bit...eccentric.
Why she would go from one extreme to another could be pondered indefinitely, but definitely not surprising given how deep and twisted the whole series' cast of characters has always been.
Yeah, you're right, trying to take this series too serious is always a bad idea and after playing 7 of these things in a row I should know that by heart.

The idea of Quiet secretly waiting for a way to leave XOF in a way that doesn't get her instantly murdered comes across as plausible and I'd like to know if the game supports that.

Speaking of which, I was going through some of the online stuff and even though the game goes up to mission 51..er, 50, apparently the main plot is pretty much finished after mission 32? Like chapter 1 is essentially the game and chapter 2 is all the other stuff they couldn't figure out how to fit in chapter 1?

That.....kinda changes things. I'm a bit more willing to try to keep pressing if I'm just trying to finish chapter 32 to see the end of the XOF revenge story rather then slog for another 18 missions beyond that.
 

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I haven?t finished it yet myself, but it?s in my very short list of games to do so with. I hope I don?t get too fatigued by the time I get to that point either, but I think just knowing the surrounding circumstances involved in the game?s development should make it more bearable. I?m more willing to forgive it knowing how Kojima was mistreated in the last few months, and still being able to put together a game with few equals in attention to detail and care for the craft.
 

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So I feel kind of dumb now but I'm going to retract a little bit.

After posting I decided to try one last time. I just started ignoring the side ops and going through the main missions as quickly and efficiently as possible(a lot of these missions can be completely in 10 minutes if you know where to go and who to grab). I've managed to push up to Mission 28, which seems to be where the Finale of Chapter starts taking hold. At this point I'm more then willing to keep going until I finish Chapter 1, at least. I've also heard that the harder retread missions in Chapter 2 are optional and only the story missions(and a few side ops) are required to get the "True" Ending.

Doing a lot of side ops early probably didn't help that feeling of fatigue though and now that I'm making some good progress, I'm feeling better about continuing.
 

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At last, this long series has finally come to an end. I started this series because Ground Zeros and The Phantom Pain caught my interest and after 6 months of playing through the entire series, I've finally reached the point I can experience it.

Since I've already gone over a lot of the game in my thoughts so far and in my Ground Zeros write up, this is going to be more along the lines of a summary then a full write up like the others. I'm also going to say right now that I'm not completely finished with the game. I finished chapter 1, which seems to be the end of the main plot and I'm aware of the major plot points from chapter 2. However, I don't foresee the game suddenly becoming radically different for the remainder of the story missions, so I'm gonna go ahead and post my final thoughts.

Of all the the games in this series, MGSV feels like the most mixed of them. On one hand, it has some really excellent gameplay. The FOX engine is incredibly robust and handles both stealth and combat equally well. A lot of the moment to moment gameplay is incredibly fun and for the first time, the series has wide open maps with no loading screens.

Stealth and Combat both feel nicely balanced with plenty of options for both extreme stealth and going loud. Buddies, such the (in)famous Nude/Mute Sniper, DDog the Dog/Wolf and DWalker, a mini-metal gear, are useful for various types of missions and as you take them out on more missions, new abilities are unlocked for them. While only one of them can be out on a mission at time, they can be swapped out as needed to as the situation warrants.

For much of the first/main chapter, the game works fairly well. After the wonderfully taunt setup Ground Zeros provides, the game flash forwards 9 years from 1975 to 1984, when Snake wakes up in a cyprian hospital from a coma, only to be the object of a rather elaborate but thorough assassination attempt. From there, Snake learns that miller has been captured, MSF has been scattered to the winds and the whole world is out to kill him. It's a great setup, but the game seems to lose it's way over time.

There are a number of missions where you're visibly following a trail to try to ferret out CIPHERs plans and connections in order to strike back at them, with a few rather generic missions that are only really justified because, well, you're running a PMC and it's the kind of contract work you can expect.

The biggest issue that the whole thing feels so uneven. The world is huge and seamless but outside of the main missions and some of the more interesting side missions, there's very little worth doing or seeing. A lot of the same locations are reused over and over again. Opening up the 2nd map in africa helps a little but has the exact same problem as the first map in afghanistan. Pretty and vast but shallow and not interesting.

The Soviets and the PF's in Africa don't feel terribly interesting or unique, but rather being different bad guys who speak different languages(which ceases to be meaningful once you've "recruited" translators for mother base). While there's background provided on both, the fact the Soviets committed war crimes and the African PMC's being bastards themselves is kinda glossed over in gameplay, being only mentioned in the audiotapes. The child soldier enemies in Africa are perhaps the best integration into the game itself, but after a while end up being functionally enemies you are not allowed to kill(which means little once you have access to a scoped tranquilizer rifle).

Coming off the "XOF is trying to murder you and you want revenge for 1975" opening, the game seems like it's going to follow through with this, but XOF/CIPHER is almost nowhere to be found for much of the game, except for those rare cases when Skull Face shows up to say a few words before disappearing into the ether again. One time he has Snake at his Mercy and just walks away for his minions to finish off for no reason at all, while other time Snake has the perfect opportunity to cap Skull Face and fails to take it. The rest of the time, there's hints and rumors that XOF is doing a lot of it's dirty work through Proxies, notably PMCs(or in this game, Private Forces/PFs). here's also the occasional visit from the Skulls, a group of Borg/Zombie supersoldier freaks who are difficult to kill but add almost nothing to the story. They just show up, act as minibosses and you either kill them or get the hell away(which is entirely possible to just run away from them long enough in many situations).

It isn't until the end of chapter 1 where you find out their HQ and that's because Huey was finally persuaded to give up their location. Unfortunately, that's about all you get because mission 30, which looks to be a climax against XOF and Skull Face, ends with a 5 minute monologue from the man himself followed by his Metal Gear(which I shall call Snuffalogus because it's real name is even more annoying to remember and pronounce). The mission after that is a fight against snuffalogous and then XOF/Skull Face is more or less dealt with. It all feels so anti-climatic.

There are other plot threads running till that point, but none of them are terribly compelling. The biggest one involves magical parasites that kill people who speak certain languages but can also give people super powers because SCIENCE REASONS! This is built up for quite a while, but it's so hard to take remotely seriously, despite a lot of tapes trying to handwave it that it's hard to care much. Then there's Eli and creepy floating gas mask child, heavily implied to child liquid snake and psycho mantis, who feel like a distraction and a plot device respectively. Eli is also incredibly obnoxious and makes me really wish I could just off the little bastard(I normally abhor the idea of hurting children. I'd make an exception for him). Sure, it would mess up the future timeline, but that also mean the stupid clone arm thing would never happen either.

Along the same lines, there's a theme about language, which ties into the magical parasite plot and acts as a gameplay puzzle at one point but doesn't quite work as well as it should. Skull Face spends about 5 minutes monologuing about it near the end chapter 1 and by that point it's just tedious(and considering Big Boss just lets him rant, it seems like he feels the same way).

It's hard to define exactly what's wrong with the game other then there doesn't seem to have been any real idea of what they wanted to say ro show with this. I mean, the game cost $85 million and took 5 years to make, and yet it feels like they never finished the damn script. It's like they planned a much, much longer game explaining the Chapter 1/Chapter 2 thing, or maybe it was originally planned that MGSV be episodic which each chapter being released and sold separately. It would explain why the ending of the revenge storyline seems to happen all of a sudden with Huey just suddenly deciding to spill his guts, despite never coming across as someone who was good at holding out under interrogation(and being a shitty weasel of a man as well).

And it turns out very little of it matters at all because aside from Miller, nobody seems to really care much about the revenge thing. Big Boss doesn't bother to say much at all and Ocelot seems like he has other things on his mind. Skull face pretty much says that CIPHER will wipe all of this from the records, which apparently explains why XOF, the Parasites or a lot of this other stuff is never mentioned in any of the other games, despite this game being almost smack dab in the middle of the timeline. Even Mother base apparently just ceases to exist later on, since by canon Big Boss will have his Main Bases at Outer Heaven in South Africa and later Zanzibarland in Central Asia respectively.

Then there's the elephant in the room, being that the character you play 'Big Boss" is actually the medic from the helicopter in Ground Zeros, surgically altered and brainwashed to pass as Big Boss and draw attention away from the real Big Boss. I don't really mind it the twist, since Big Boss is just as much about his reputation then his deeds(and Venom pulls off some amazing shit as well). The real issue is Venom doesn't seem to get to do much in the actual plot. He's often there to witness Miller and Ocelot doing stuff, and the lack of commentary is sorely missed. I mean, I guess it's supposed to make sense that since Venom is a manufactured Big Boss, he wouldn't be the same as the real one, but it also means he doesn't get any real development of his own since he can't fall back the development from Snake Eater and Peace Walker, and thus ends up being just as much as of an empty shell of a bad guy as the villian he becomes in Metal Gear. Like everything else, it feels so unsatisfying and a bit of a wasted opportunity.

This entire game, really, feels like that. Essentially, when it's all said and done, MGSV: The Phantom Pain is basically a big Budget remake of Peace Walker. The gameplay is significantly improved, but the framework is the same. However, for everything else, it feels like TPP borrows a lot from MGS4, from good looking cutscenes that don't really say a whole lot, to a heavy reliance on magical nanomachines/parasites as a plot device. Whereas Peace Walker had a very tight and grounded plot(except for a giant AI tank with the mind of the Boss), TPP feels like it goes on for quite a while without revolving much of anything. And while both games have a final chapter with a lot of filler, Peace Walker made it explicit that the main plot was pretty much done by the time the final chapter started, whereas TPP has lingering plot threads all over the place.

Skull Face's plot(in addition to killing off the english language because world unity?) involves making sure everyone has metal gears/nuclear weapons which would mess up the balance of power("Make the superpowers powerless") which feels like a retread of the same theme pretty much every other game in the series has done at this point. There's something also about being able to turn the nukes on and off at will which sounds suspiciously like the Nanomachine/Guns of the Patriot plot from MGS4(and makes even less sense).

What makes it ever worse, despite the fact the True ending of MGSV connects directly back to Metal Gear, completing the circle, it doesn't really accomplish anything as far as the lore is concerned. It purports to show Snake's journey from Hero to villain, but Peace Walker pretty much already did that, going from "The soldier who saved his world and walked away from his country" at the end of Snake Eater to "The man who would be called Big Boss with a Nuclear Equipped Private Army and a willingness to employ child soldiers" at the end of Peace Walker. There's a couple extra points TPP shows but almost everything else are similar plot points to the previous game, except without the character development.

I'm also annoyed that for all the characters from other games who are in this game, almost all of them feel off. Miller went from being a Snakes rather good natured business and heterosexual life partner to being a humorless jerkass obsessed with revenge. Huey lost any traits that would make him remotely likable, instead being a cowardly traitor who blames everyone else for his own failings. Ocelot is reasonable enough, but that's hard to square with the fact this is the guy who, 20 years prior was juggling revolvers for impromptu Russian Roulette games and 20 years in the future will be attaching liquids arm to his own because reasons(Skull Face apparently took the GIANT HAM duty for this game). If you hadn't played any games in the series before this, you'd probably wonder why you're supposed to care about them. If you had played other games, you'd wonder what happened to all these characters between games to make them so unlikable.

It's really hard to shake the feeling that while you need to understand Peace Walker to appreciate Ground Zeros and to some extent, the first two Metal Gear games, you don't really miss out of much if you skip out on MGSV, since you're ultimately playing the Big Boss who had no development at all, you're not building Outer Heaven from MG and pretty much everything that happens is never referenced again(unless you really cared so much about why Eli hates Big Boss so much).

In the end, it's rather sad that the final game in the Metal Gear series, with such potential, sends up being so unsatisfying. And on that note, my long journey through this series comes to an end.

I do plan on one final post in this thread before it's done, where I rate the series from best to worst as well as briefly go over the entire series now that it's all over and done with.
 

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Congrats on the long, glorious journey through one of gaming's most treasured IP's. I must admit I've only glossed through the lengthier write-ups, but in any case this is a Valhalla-worthy thread to go back to for future introspection on this most obliquely intriguing mindf*ck of a series.

With that, I leave you with this -



 

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hanselthecaretaker said:
Congrats on the long, glorious journey through one of gaming's most treasured IP's. I must admit I've only glossed through the lengthier write-ups, but in any case this is a Valhalla-worthy thread to go back to for future introspection on this most obliquely intriguing mindf*ck of a series.
Thanks. Hopefully this forum will survive for a while or at least be archived but I've been saving the write ups as word documents as well.

I really wasn't sure if I'd enjoy this series knowing about it's frankly bizarre shifts in tone between amazingly well researched and batshit insanity, but I was pleasantly surprised by how much I enjoyed it.
 

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Glad to see you made it through. This has always been a fun thread to follow.

My thoughts in MGSV are similar to yours. The stealth/action gameplay is the best it's been for the series, but it just feels so hollow and unnecessary. The plot is weak and mostly confined to tapes that require to just sit and listen for ages. The map is big and empty, with areas being constantly reused for busywork missions. Despite all the content the game feels unfinished, which it totally is. If you didn't play Peace Walker, which I didn't since I had no interest in what originally a PSP spinoff game, then the plot offers absolutely nothing as everything seems to completely hinge on you getting to know the cast there. The characters as presented are dull as dishwasher. Ocelot, the revolver spinning Russian cowboy, is just a boring radio guy now, Miller just screeches about REVENGE all game and acts like a total dick to everyone, and I still don't get why Quiet just didn't write shit down after she joined the team. Maybe she had the LITERACY PARASITE and using a pencil would cause an outbreak.

I'm kind of rambling but to sum up, MGS5 is probably the best game that I never want to play again. The gameplay is so good but everything else is lacking. It lacks the heart and soul that made the series so enjoyable to begin with, and it's shameful that it's the game the series will go out on. Here's hoping that Death Stranding ends up being a new Kojima game worth loving.

ADDENDUM: I really hate how PARASITES! has become the new NANOMACHINES! to handwave everything. Like, can't we just have weirdo baddies with crazy powers? When you explain it, it just feels more contrived. Especially how they decided that they needed to explain that the Cobras of MGS3 are all just people with PARASITES! that gave them crazy powers. I liked it better when the Cobras were just a bunch of random weirdos as it fit the feel of MGS where the military recruits random crazy people who do weird shit. Now everything is just NAH PARASITES DAWG. I can suspend my disbelief with NANOMACHINES! as it's vague future technology. But PARASITES! doesn't have the same level of hand waving, especially with some of the really weird shit like making weapons appear out of nowhere. I dunno, maybe I'm just weird but this was a big hangup for me as it went on. Sometimes less is more, and less explanation would have been better since it means you can't scrutinize the answer
 

Dalisclock

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Comic Sans said:
Glad to see you made it through. This has always been a fun thread to follow.
I'm glad people were enjoying it. I was getting worried there that what few people were interested had left or lost interest. Though I also realize these things tend to be TL;DR as well.

Comic Sans said:
If you didn't play Peace Walker, which I didn't since I had no interest in what originally a PSP spinoff game, then the plot offers absolutely nothing as everything seems to completely hinge on you getting to know the cast there. The characters as presented are dull as dishwasher. Ocelot, the revolver spinning Russian cowboy, is just a boring radio guy now, Miller just screeches about REVENGE all game and acts like a total dick to everyone, and I still don't get why Quiet just didn't write shit down after she joined the team. Maybe she had the LITERACY PARASITE and using a pencil would cause an outbreak.
Peace Walker kind of got a raw deal being a PSP game. If it had been a PS3 game, it would have gotten the attention it deserved instead of mostly being ignored/not noticed by most people. It also would have had the processing power to be a lot more like MGSV but with an actual plot.

At least it was ported to PS3 and was included in the HD/Legacy collection(both of which are cheaper then Survive or MGSV).

Comic Sans said:
I'm kind of rambling but to sum up, MGS5 is probably the best game that I never want to play again. The gameplay is so good but everything else is lacking. It lacks the heart and soul that made the series so enjoyable to begin with, and it's shameful that it's the game the series will go out on. Here's hoping that Death Stranding ends up being a new Kojima game worth loving.
I know exactly how you feel.



Comic Sans said:
ADDENDUM: I really hate how PARASITES! has become the new NANOMACHINES! to handwave everything. Like, can't we just have weirdo baddies with crazy powers? When you explain it, it just feels more contrived. Especially how they decided that they needed to explain that the Cobras of MGS3 are all just people with PARASITES! that gave them crazy powers. I liked it better when the Cobras were just a bunch of random weirdos as it fit the feel of MGS where the military recruits random crazy people who do weird shit. Now everything is just NAH PARASITES DAWG. I can suspend my disbelief with NANOMACHINES! as it's vague future technology. But PARASITES! doesn't have the same level of hand waving, especially with some of the really weird shit like making weapons appear out of nowhere. I dunno, maybe I'm just weird but this was a big hangup for me as it went on. Sometimes less is more, and less explanation would have been better since it means you can't scrutinize the answer
What makes it worse it that the game seems to imply("They taught us how to speak") that the Parasites have always been there, but nobody has ever noticed them until CIPHER started messing with them. Apparently XOF picked up the research to weaponize it, yet it's confined entirely to this game and the rest of the series is more then happy to imply the supernatural is a real thing. Hell, Ghosts are canonically real in the Metal Gear universe, which makes Big Bosses fear of Vampires in MGS3 not as crazy as it may otherwise seem.
 

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Yeah it's so weird that they need to have a BS pseudoscience explanation for the weird stuff in MGS5, despite this being the same game with a floating psychic kid in a gas mask who does all kinds of stuff that cannot be explained, as well as the resurrected corpse of your old enemy who literally burns with revenge. The parasites as an explanation is absolutely absurd even by MGS standards. I don't care what mumbo jumbo they came up with, no parasite can make people do some of the stuff they did. The big thing that comes to mind is when the Skull soldiers in the first real mission pull assault rifles from their hands, or the Skull snipers having their rifles just materialize out of nothing. If they had just been unexplained weirdos I would have accepted it, same as I did Vulcan Raven magically paralyzing Snake, Mantis' powers, or Vamp pinning you down by your shadow.

And as you said, it's so weird to have these magical do anything parasites that have apparently been around forever but weren't mentioned before and apparently were never researched again despite their absolutely insane results.

Did you ever look up the unfinished mission video that came with the special edition? It features details and the incomplete cutscenes of the mission that would have wrapped up the loose ends of the Snuffleupagus and Eli, and sounds like it would have been really cool. It's easy to find on YouTube and it's criminal that it wasn't included to some degree. As it stands, Eli Mantis and the other kids take the Not Metal Gear and then they never discuss it again
 

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Comic Sans said:
Did you ever look up the unfinished mission video that came with the special edition? It features details and the incomplete cutscenes of the mission that would have wrapped up the loose ends of the Snuffleupagus and Eli, and sounds like it would have been really cool. It's easy to find on YouTube and it's criminal that it wasn't included to some degree. As it stands, Eli Mantis and the other kids take the Not Metal Gear and then they never discuss it again
I hadn't until you mentioned it. I went ahead and watched it and while it wouldn't have fixed the game, it would have at least given Eli's arc some kind of purpose and ending, instead of "Well, they flew off with the Metal Gear and the parasite and.....no one ever saw them again"

Granted it also raises the other problem of Eli somehow managing to get Snuffleupagus working again despite Snake blowing the crap out of it or the fact Eli apparently is infected with the English Parasite yet talks PLENTY in MGS, 20 years later. Snake even makes a mention of Eli showing Symptoms.

I'm also having trouble trying to figure out why I'm really supposed to care about Snake accidently shooting Eli. Sure, he's a kid, but he's a obnoxious little shit who does nothing but try to kill people and by that point, has unleashed a virulent disease and stolen a giant battle robot and tried to kill snake with it twice. Sure, it sounds like he had a shitty childhood but it really doesn't excuse his constant acts of unprovoked violence. With no redeemable characteristics, "Poor Eli" isn't really a phrase that enters my mind when Snake repeatedly owns him.

There's also the whole issue of why was Eli able to steal Snuffalogus so easily. It only worked at all because of child psycho mantis, but Diamond Dogs(or more like "Huey") bring it back to Mother Base anyway because of "Legacy". Except they can't use it, won't disassemble it and just let Eli/Mantis run off with it, when Snuggalogus seems like an EXPY of ZEKE in that way and the chapter 5 finale in Peace Walker was PAZ stealing ZEKE in pretty much the exact same manner(minus the floating ghost child bit).

And yeah, I'm not sure why they felt it was necessary to bring Volgin back as the man on fire. Finding out it's his corpse(?) controlled like a hateful puppet doesn't really add anything to the story. It's just more fanservice. It could have been anyone and made just as much sense as the flaming whale seen in the prologue(which I don't think is really explained anywhere).
 

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Dalisclock said:
Granted it also raises the other problem of Eli somehow managing to get Snuffleupagus working again despite Snake blowing the crap out of it or the fact Eli apparently is infected with the English Parasite yet talks PLENTY in MGS, 20 years later. Snake even makes a mention of Eli showing Symptoms.
Huey helped the boys repair it, also in the cutscene you can see that Psycho Mantis removed the parasites from Eli before helping him escape from the island.
 

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In the cutscenes they say that the virus doesn't take effect until one's vocal cords have matured. His voice started to change but he wasn't all there yet, so Eli wasn't feeling the full effect. At the end of the cutscene, Mantis removed the parasite from his body so that's how he was fine later. Though honestly that's such a plot cul-de-sac that I'm glad it was cut. What's the point of introducing something that doesn't matter for the character beyond that moment? I really wish on the whole that Eli was handled better. I think that having Venom be the player character not Big Boss handicapped the plot. He is a blank slate with no real investment to the overall mythos and characters. Instead of getting to see Big Boss finally develop into the villain, we get this randy who is just a Big Boss avatar with no meaningful development. Imagine if instead of saving it for the end game twist, we KNEW it was the double and had to see him deal with the legacy of his new persona, while butting heads with Miller and others who are in on it and don't like how he handles things? Maybe he tries to be more of a father to Eli because he knows Boss doesn't give a fuck and wants to be better, so when Eli hates him and he writes Eli off it means more. Everything in the game was in service to a plot twist that while kind of cool in it's reveal, otherwise didn't do anything for the series except plug in the plot hole of Big Boss being killed in Outer Heaven but back in the sequel, something I don't think anyone really cared about anymore.

I'm really confused about the whale and fire horse as well. Was that Volgin doing it? The rest of the game he just shoots fire and bullets. It doesn't seem to be him using that power. Was it Mantis? If so that's a HUGE leap in his capabilities. In the past he seems to be able to appear/disappear, float, read minds, control minds, and telekinesis. That's all a far cry from creating a giant flaming whale out of nowhere that eats a helicopter. It seems like that was put in just because of the Snakes being call Ishmael and Ahab at the start. That or Kojima likes whales.
 

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I believe that it was Psycho Mantis/Venom Snakes doing, Psycho Mantis draws power from peoples anger/lust for revenge. You can see who he's drawing from by looking at him, when he summons the firey whale you can see that Psycho Mantis has shrapnel stuck in his head which implies he's drawing power from Venom Snake at that moment, when he draws power from Skullface you can see that his mask resembles Skullface's mask, when he draws power from Eli you can see that he has a red cloth or whatever on his shoulder.