Dark Heroic Fantasy

[iggyus]

A the moment I am playing Dragon Age: Origins and I love it. I also saw the review by Yahtzee and he pointed something out: this is not entirely a dark heroic fantasy as it is advertised. Sure there is some mature content but otherwise it is pretty tame. The true dark heroic fantasy I would say was the Witcher, which featured things like intense racism, drug abuse and addiction, sexual assault, genocide... Some of these are present in Dragon Age but to a much lesser extent. What is your opinion on this?

 

[Hurr Durr Derp]

As I said in another topic; Dragon Age is a great game, but one of the purest examples of generic, derivative fantasy there are in recent memory.

 

[zauxz]

Yeah I completelly agree.

The Witcher's universe is probably as dark as it gets, altho I think that Dragon Age can be considered a dark fantasty too.

Minor spoiler:

Spoiler

like the part where you find out that dwarves ALLWAYS have a blight problem, and that the outsiders dont give a fuck about it.

 

[Gingerman]

I agree that dragon age is generic in some respects but in other ways not so much for example.

Tolkien dwarf:Honourable, loyal, doesn't kick the lower classes
Dragon dwarf: Backstabbing killing family members off for advantage, kicks the lower class and sees them as scum and a wee bit loyal depending on the dwarf

Tolkien elves:Immortal, have a proud nation, respected
Dragon Elves: Mortal, nation destroyed, most in slavery, treated like filth by the humans

And I wont mention the humans as they're pretty much humans. The races do tend to fall into the arch types but thats because it suits them so bloody well, an elf that is 10 feet tall and has two cars for arms is not likely to register as a elf in my eyes as I commonly attribute that to a ogre.

Anywhos still one of the best games I've played this year.

 

[Jaqen Hghar]

Overlord is kind of a... Dark Demonic Fantasy? Where the Halflings are bastards who steal from humans. The dwarves are drunken assholes who tried to eradicate the Elves, which are just plain stupid. But I guess this doesn't really count, since all of that is explained through the story. And it's not an RPG...
We need more Dark Heroic Fantasies.

 

[Jandau]

I'd advise any sane person to utterly disregard Dragon Age's marketing campaign (with the exception of the Sacred Ashes trailer, which pretty nice). "Dark heroic fantasy" is just a catchphrase. It is darker than most fantasy games, but that's about it.

As I said in another topic; Dragon Age is a great game, but one of the purest examples of generic, derivative fantasy there are in recent memory.

And as I said in another thread, the only way someone can think that is if they skip all the dialogue and ignore all the characters. DA:O does use the entire range of the usual fantasy tropes, but at the same time endavours to turn a fair few of them around and put a nice twist on many of the accepted fatasy standards. An excellent example are the Dwarves, who might seem the usual underground-dwelling, tunnel-digging proud warrior race, but are in fact a society defined by a tyranical caste system, constant hypocritical backstabbing, social inequity and other such cheery things. One has to scratch beneath the surface a bit to get the interesting parts, but in total Dragon Age's setting isn't nearly as generic as, say, Oblivion or Neverwinter Nights (1&2),

 

[Quad08]

Well...

Spoiler

I thought the option to kill the Earl's son, who was possessed by a demon, was pretty dark. I mean, it is killing a kid

Sure its not a dark, depressing game overall but it had its moments

 

[BloodSquirrel]

A the moment I am playing Dragon Age: Origins and I love it. I also saw the review by Yahtzee and he pointed something out: this is not entirely a dark heroic fantasy as it is advertised. Sure there is some mature content but otherwise it is pretty tame. The true dark heroic fantasy I would say was the Witcher, which featured things like intense racism, drug abuse and addiction, sexual assault, genocide... Some of these are present in Dragon Age but to a much lesser extent. What is your opinion on this?

Dragon Age was at least as dark as The Witcher. The Deep Roads section of the game was one of the darkest things I've seen in a game. Dragon age also built a much more three dimensional world, which actually gave context to the dark parts.

As for The Witcher: just throwing in a bunch of 'adult' things and then having all of the characters scowl all the time doesn't really make it all that dark. The drug stuff was ham-fisted. The racism doubly so (The dwarves and their caste system from Dragon Age was FAR more effective than The Witchers "blah blah racism blah blah"). Being humorless and being dark are not the same thing.

 

[ma55ter_fett]

As I said in another topic; Dragon Age is a great game, but one of the purest examples of generic, derivative fantasy there are in recent memory.

yea, but it works...

 

[Archetypal_Maniac]

I found the orphanage covered in blood quite dark.

 

[Hurr Durr Derp]

As I said in another topic; Dragon Age is a great game, but one of the purest examples of generic, derivative fantasy there are in recent memory.

yea, but it works...

Never claimed it didn't.

I'd advise any sane person to utterly disregard Dragon Age's marketing campaign (with the exception of the Sacred Ashes trailer, which pretty nice). "Dark heroic fantasy" is just a catchphrase. It is darker than most fantasy games, but that's about it.

As I said in another topic; Dragon Age is a great game, but one of the purest examples of generic, derivative fantasy there are in recent memory.

And as I said in another thread, the only way someone can think that is if they skip all the dialogue and ignore all the characters. DA:O does use the entire range of the usual fantasy tropes, but at the same time endavours to turn a fair few of them around and put a nice twist on many of the accepted fatasy standards. An excellent example are the Dwarves, who might seem the usual underground-dwelling, tunnel-digging proud warrior race, but are in fact a society defined by a tyranical caste system, constant hypocritical backstabbing, social inequity and other such cheery things. One has to scratch beneath the surface a bit to get the interesting parts, but in total Dragon Age's setting isn't nearly as generic as, say, Oblivion or Neverwinter Nights (1&2),

Everyone keeps bringing up the Dwarves, because when they're not merry communists with scottish accents they're somehow not cliché anymore. Just as if Elves aren't cliché anymore when they aren't some immortal master-race. Sure, the game changes some things, but many of the core ideas people associate with fantasy are left untouched. I don't intend to judge whether that's good or bad, just making the observation.

I'm inclined to agree that NWN is more generic, but it's not an original setting to begin with. It's D&D's Forgotten Realms, which is pretty much meant to be utterly generic (well I guess maybe Greyhawk is more generic but whatever). And while I'm not a fan of Oblivion myself, I don't agree that it's more generic than DAO. Sure it uses many of the usual fantasy clichés, but the setting as a whole is less derivative than that of this game.

As I said, I love Dragon Age. I'm currently almost done with my second playthrough and intending to do a third. But if you're trying to argue that the setting is original in any significant way, I'm going to have trouble taking you serious.

 

[Hurr Durr Derp]

[double post, sorry]

 

[Jandau]

As I said in another topic; Dragon Age is a great game, but one of the purest examples of generic, derivative fantasy there are in recent memory.

yea, but it works...

Never claimed it didn't.

I'd advise any sane person to utterly disregard Dragon Age's marketing campaign (with the exception of the Sacred Ashes trailer, which pretty nice). "Dark heroic fantasy" is just a catchphrase. It is darker than most fantasy games, but that's about it.

As I said in another topic; Dragon Age is a great game, but one of the purest examples of generic, derivative fantasy there are in recent memory.

And as I said in another thread, the only way someone can think that is if they skip all the dialogue and ignore all the characters. DA:O does use the entire range of the usual fantasy tropes, but at the same time endavours to turn a fair few of them around and put a nice twist on many of the accepted fatasy standards. An excellent example are the Dwarves, who might seem the usual underground-dwelling, tunnel-digging proud warrior race, but are in fact a society defined by a tyranical caste system, constant hypocritical backstabbing, social inequity and other such cheery things. One has to scratch beneath the surface a bit to get the interesting parts, but in total Dragon Age's setting isn't nearly as generic as, say, Oblivion or Neverwinter Nights (1&2),

Everyone keeps bringing up the Dwarves, because when they're not merry communists with scottish accents they're somehow not cliché anymore. Just as if Elves aren't cliché anymore when they aren't some immortal master-race. Sure, the game changes some things, but many of the core ideas people associate with fantasy are left untouched. I don't intend to judge whether that's good or bad, just making the observation.

I'm inclined to agree that NWN is more generic, but it's not an original setting to begin with. It's D&D's Forgotten Realms, which is pretty much meant to be utterly generic (well I guess maybe Greyhawk is more generic but whatever). And while I'm not a fan of Oblivion myself, I don't agree that it's more generic than DAO. Sure it uses many of the usual fantasy clichés, but the setting as a whole is less derivative than that of this game.

As I said, I love Dragon Age. I'm currently almost done with my second playthrough and intending to do a third. But if you're trying to argue that the setting is original in any significant way, I'm going to have trouble taking you serious.

Well, I guess that we'll have to disagree then. If you consider Oblivion less derivative than Dragon Age, then it's apparent that our views differ too much to come to any consensus.

While I don't claim that DA's setting is a triumph of originality I still maintain that it takes many overused aspects of fantasy and puts a twist on them to make them fresh again. Calling something generic and derivative without context directly implies that it's boring and not interesting, since we've all seen it many times before. I don't think DA can be put into such a category, but you're free to disagree here.

Also, elves aren't as cliche when they aren't a immortal master race. While Witcher already did the subjugated elves bit already, it's still fairly uncommon and welcome. Overall, elves are nicely fleshed out and not a homogenous race, but also deeply divided (and that's just the ones in Ferelden) between the Dalish and City. The mages are also not the usual fantasy fare, and I found the medieval history parallels quite pleasing, such as the reverse 100-year war between England and France (Ferelden and Orlais), the Roman empire/Byzantines (Tevinter Imperium), rise of Christianity (Chantry), etc.

While the pieces that make up the game world might seem familiar, they are set up in a way that's both fresh and detailed enough to ensure the game world isn't generic. Familiarity with the individual elements helps the observer come to grips with it, but the twists in them will keep it interesting.

Basically, it's not derivative and generic. I'm sorry if you feel it is. Glad you like the game

 

[Uilleand]

You want to find DA:O's dark side? Finish it. It's been days, and I *still* feel like I took a ballista to the gut. Sometimes the 'right' choices lead to the most pain...and that's some adult realization there, people...
Painful, painful stuff...

 

[iggyus]

You want to find DA:O's dark side? Finish it. It's been days, and I *still* feel like I took a ballista to the gut. Sometimes the 'right' choices lead to the most pain...and that's some adult realization there, people...
Painful, painful stuff...

I finished it 3 times and it never really surprised me. I still claim The Witcher was much darker, DA:O is an amazing game but its a typical fantasy with the occasional mature part in it

 

[AllHailTheAltmer]

I agree that Dragon Age does feel a little generic. Compare the gameworld and story with that of something like The Elder Scrolls, and you start the differences. Cyrodiil has extreme racism, drug use, slavery in Morrowind, an incredibly deep history, and all sorts. I'd say the only thing that is more dark fantastic in Dragon Age is the sex. Sexuality certainly exists in Elder Scrolls, but it's more subtle, and in many ways subtlety is not at all what dark fantasy is about.

Dragon Age is still a fantastic game, though. BioWare proves yet again that they are one of the forebearers for good characterisation in video games.