Dark Souls 2 Lore discussion and thoughs

[Tuxedoman]

This thread will be spoilerific, so be well aware before delving in. However, as many of you will be Souls Fans already then I would assume you're already aware that this would be the case.

So I am not very far into the game, but I have been keeping an eye out for lore hints and things that may tie back to Dark Souls 1.


I haven't found much, but I guarantee that the Emerald Prophet is tied directly to the bonfires in a major way. The fact that she gives you your first Estus, upgrades the flasks AND allows you to level up, something that an undead can do anywhere in the future.

So Escapists, what curious things have you found in your Dark Souls 2 travels?

 

[Kopikatsu]

Old Dragonslayer is the real Ornstein. The one in Anor Londo was an illusion conjured by Gwyndolin. Like his comrade Antorias before him, Ornstein became corrupted by the Abyss, leading him to the state you see him in in DS2. As for how Ornstein was consumed by the Abyss despite not being in Lordran or Oolacile when shit got real and why the Undead have come to Drangleic, well...

Spoiler: Major Dark Souls 2 Spoilers

The King of Drangleic was manipulated and corrupted by the Queen, who is actually the reincarnation of Manus, the Father of the Abyss and Furtive Pygmy.

Also, DS2 takes place centuries after DS1. There are a few references to this (Sunlight Covenant hasn't been active in a very long period of time, an NPC mentions that the bonfires used to be tended by the Fire Keepers but they all vanished hundreds of years ago, etc)

Additionally... The Last Giant isn't actually the last Giant. You can find two more of them in a well hidden cave at the bottom of the Black Gulch. Killing them reveals an interesting tidbit. The Giants came to Drangleic to get vengeance on the King. It's implied that the two Giants you find are the last survivors of a group who came to avenge their brethren 'resting' in the Forest of Fallen Giants. The Last Giant was merely the only Giant who managed to escape the massacre of it's people, but it was driven mad with anguish and pain. It's much thinner than the other two Giants, as well as being naked and unarmed whereas the other Giants have clothes and weapons. Not to mention that the Last Giant was willing to tear it's own arm off to use as a bludgeon. Basically, The Last Giant was only a Giant that had been driven feral by an unimaginable amount of suffering. It's behavior and state of being/mind isn't indicative of the race.

The one place I'm really anxious to get into is the Mansion of Dragons, where the Kingdom of Drangleic preformed various (extremely unethical) experiments on dragons of all shapes and sizes. But now the researchers are dead, and the Dragons have broken free. I think there'll be a wealth of information in there. Just have to get to it.

 

[Diablo2000]

I really, really think that Shalquoir (or whatever the cat's name is) is a reincarnation of Alvina, her later dialog implies that she may have witness some of Dark Souls 1 events, for instincts, she says that "Vanglorious Liar" thrown himself into the fire to light the flame.
Also the Silvercat Ring implies that cats have forces within them that forces them to reborn as something new, like the Doctor but with more fur.

That's as much as I got, I haven't finished yet. I already beat the four bastards I supose to beat to gain entrance to the castle, however I am seeing about things I may have missed(Like the Second Dragon Ring, which is basicly the Ring of Life and Protection).

 

[NihilSinLulz]

The sorcerer you unpetrify mentions that pyromancy came from the Witches of Old who together with others defeated the Old Ones but that it happened a loooooooooooooooong time away.

Also, if I remember correctly, the Dark Souls 1 protagonist is also alluded to when you're told that an unnamed hero defeated the last of the Old Ones or something.

 

[Diablo2000]

The sorcerer you unpetrify mentions that pyromancy came from the Witches of Old who together with others defeated the Old Ones but that it happened a loooooooooooooooong time away.

Also, if I remember correctly, the Dark Souls 1 protagonist is also alluded to when you're told that an unnamed hero defeated the last of the Old Ones or something.

She's talking about The Witch of Izalith and her daughters, the Old Ones were the Dragons...

 

[sXeth]

I haven't found much, but I guarantee that the Emerald Prophet is tied directly to the bonfires in a major way. The fact that she gives you your first Estus, upgrades the flasks AND allows you to level up, something that an undead can do anywhere in the future.

If you talk to the maid in the hut at the start, she tells you the old crones are Fire Keepers (who've apparently given up keeping fires for some reason. Then she mentions a fourth sister is missing, who I'd guess is probably the Emerald Lady. The three in the cabin having forfeited up hope, while she mentions she's holding on to her last shred.

 

[Arluza]

I haven't found much, but I guarantee that the Emerald Prophet is tied directly to the bonfires in a major way. The fact that she gives you your first Estus, upgrades the flasks AND allows you to level up, something that an undead can do anywhere in the future.

If you talk to the maid in the hut at the start, she tells you the old crones are Fire Keepers (who've apparently given up keeping fires for some reason. Then she mentions a fourth sister is missing, who I'd guess is probably the Emerald Lady. The three in the cabin having forfeited up hope, while she mentions she's holding on to her last shred.

I think the 4th keeper was the lady in the intro video, who tells you about Drangleic in the first place. The woman in the cutscene is dressed and acts similarly.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

My thoughts are there're already 4 other threads in the same page about Dark Souls II, regarding graphics, level design, sadism and PS3 issues. To make a fifth thread about "whatever"... but never mind. I haven't played Dark Souls II. I haven't even played Dark Souls. I've only played Demon's Souls, which by all accounts is more or less the same thing. I'd like to get into the Dark Souls (spin-off?) someday though and I'm glad everybody's so excited about it.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

My thoughts are there're already 4 other threads in the same page about Dark Souls II, regarding graphics, level design, sadism and PS3 issues. To make a fifth thread about "whatever"... but never mind. I haven't played Dark Souls II. I haven't even played Dark Souls. I've only played Demon's Souls, which by all accounts is more or less the same thing. I'd like to get into the Dark Souls (spin-off?) someday though and I'm glad everybody's so excited about it.

I don't see your point. Would you post in a thread about level design or PS3 issues to discuss lore?

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

My thoughts are there're already 4 other threads in the same page about Dark Souls II, regarding graphics, level design, sadism and PS3 issues. To make a fifth thread about "whatever"... but never mind. I haven't played Dark Souls II. I haven't even played Dark Souls. I've only played Demon's Souls, which by all accounts is more or less the same thing. I'd like to get into the Dark Souls (spin-off?) someday though and I'm glad everybody's so excited about it.

I don't see your point. Would you post in a thread about level design or PS3 issues to discuss lore?

It's not a criticism, I'm just amused by the wave of nitpicking, positive or negative, that the game has unleashed. I don't remember the last time everybody was talking about everything in a game. Even popular games like GTA V only gave up one kind of discussion value: how horrible its characters were and did that stop you from enjoying the game.

 

[[REDACTED]]

It's not a criticism, I'm just amused by the wave of nitpicking, positive or negative, that the game has unleashed. I don't remember the last time everybody was talking about everything in a game. Even popular games like GTA V only gave up one kind of discussion value: how horrible its characters were and did that stop you from enjoying the game.

Were you reading the forums in the period after Skyrim was released? There was nothing else. NOTHING. All other conversational topics were flattened beneath its mighty tread.

OT: if original Ornstein was just an illusion, would that mean that the way that he acted in that game doesn't actually mean anything? That would be a shame: the way he and Smough reacted to each other's deaths made for an interesting contrast.

 

[Ferisar]

]

It's not a criticism, I'm just amused by the wave of nitpicking, positive or negative, that the game has unleashed. I don't remember the last time everybody was talking about everything in a game. Even popular games like GTA V only gave up one kind of discussion value: how horrible its characters were and did that stop you from enjoying the game.

Were you reading the forums in the period after Skyrim was released? There was nothing else. NOTHING. All other conversational topics were flattened beneath its mighty tread.

OT: if original Ornstein was just an illusion, would that mean that the way that he acted in that game doesn't actually mean anything? That would be a shame: the way he and Smough reacted to each other's deaths made for an interesting contrast.

That depends on how elaborate the illusion was, though. If it mirrored their real personality, than it could still be relevant!

 

[cgentero]

Old Dragonslayer is the real Ornstein. The one in Anor Londo was an illusion conjured by Gwyndolin. Like his comrade Antorias before him, Ornstein became corrupted by the Abyss, leading him to the state you see him in in DS2

Im not so sure since in DS1 you can get Ornstien's soul, I doubt its a fake, so why would an illusion drop Ornstien's soul?

 

[Kopikatsu]

Old Dragonslayer is the real Ornstein. The one in Anor Londo was an illusion conjured by Gwyndolin. Like his comrade Antorias before him, Ornstein became corrupted by the Abyss, leading him to the state you see him in in DS2

Im not so sure since in DS1 you can get Ornstien's soul, I doubt its a fake, so why would an illusion drop Ornstien's soul?

It is fake.

It's possible to give constructs souls in the Dark Souls universe, as shown by...well...most of the enemies that aren't Hollows.

 

[cgentero]

It is fake.

It's possible to give constructs souls in the Dark Souls universe, as shown by...well...most of the enemies that aren't Hollows.

From the items description.

Soul of Ornstein, Dragonslayer Knight who guards the cathedral in the forsaken city of Anor Londo.

Special beings have special souls. Lord Gywn granted this soul to his four most trusted knights.

Even if Gwyndolin(or whoever) can make fake "special" souls, why if he didn't even make one for Gwynevere would he make one for Ornstien? What benefit would there even be if a "special" soul could be faked?

Its more likely you fight a sort of hollow form of Ornstien, or FROM retconned something.

EDIT

BTW here is what the Old Dragonslayer soul says

Soul of the Old Dragonslayer. The Old Dragonslayer is reminiscent of a certain knight that appears in old legends.

 

[Kopikatsu]

It is fake.

It's possible to give constructs souls in the Dark Souls universe, as shown by...well...most of the enemies that aren't Hollows.

From the items description.

Soul of Ornstein, Dragonslayer Knight who guards the cathedral in the forsaken city of Anor Londo.

Special beings have special souls. Lord Gywn granted this soul to his four most trusted knights.

Even if Gwyndolin(or whoever) can make fake "special" souls, why if he didn't even make one for Gwynevere would he make one for Ornstien? What benefit would there even be if a "special" soul could be faked?

Its more likely you fight a sort of hollow form of Ornstien, or FROM retconned something.

Gwynevere can't fight. The strength of a being's soul is directly correlated to their actual strength.

I already mentioned this in the original post, but Old Dragonslayer is Ornstein after having been corrupted by the Abyss. How he encountered the Abyss is explained near the end of the game (and is in that spoiler in my first post)

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

Im not so sure since in DS1 you can get Ornstien's soul, I doubt its a fake, so why would an illusion drop Ornstien's soul?

Why do the Silver Knights (who ARE illusions) drop souls? It is definitely an interesting topic for debate though. What really interests me is why the Old Dragonslayer is shooting darkness instead of lightning.

 

[cgentero]

Gwynevere can't fight. The strength of a being's soul is directly correlated to their strength.

I already mentioned this in the original post, but Old Dragonslayer is Ornstein after having been corrupted by the Abyss. How he encountered the Abyss is explained near the end of the game (and is in that spoiler in my first post)

Your whole theory is based on the idea that Drangleic isn't Lordran, which IMO is disproven by dialogue with Straid.

Also plenty of strong beings don't drop their souls, was Kalameet weak?

Why do the Silver Knights (who ARE illusions) drop souls? It is definitely an interesting topic for debate though. What really interests me is why the Old Dragonslayer is shooting darkness instead of lightning.

I'm talking about Ornstien's "special" soul, Im not so convinced it could be faked.

 

[MrDumpkins]

Im not so sure since in DS1 you can get Ornstien's soul, I doubt its a fake, so why would an illusion drop Ornstien's soul?

Why do the Silver Knights (who ARE illusions) drop souls? It is definitely an interesting topic for debate though. What really interests me is why the Old Dragonslayer is shooting darkness instead of lightning.

Normally I'd just say it's gameplay over story. But Dark Souls is so meticulous with what it gives the player I'm sure there is a reason. Perhaps the illusins cost souls to make and they hold them while active. I don't think the DS 2 ornstein is the real one, his soul says otherwise. My guess is that his armor was salvaged by someone, perhaps that dude that sells you boss armors from DS1, he was a traveler.

Never did meet that straid guy I'll have to go find him, but if what he says is true and that this is lordran reborn after the first game, then that makes that someone would discover ornteins armor eventually. Also explains why the giants of anor londo left lordran if they didn't want to be reshaped