Dark Souls 2 Lore discussion and thoughs

[BraveSirRobin]

Your whole theory is based on the idea that Drangleic isn't Lordran, which IMO is disproven by dialogue with Straid.

Actually if you look at the Lingering Dragoncrest Ring in Dark Souls 2 it has the description "A ring used long, long ago in the land where Drangleic is now" This ring in Dark Souls 1 was "A special ring granted to only the most accomplished sorcerers at Vinheim Dragon School." Which would seem to imply that Drangleic was not Lordran, but Vinheim instead. Plus they had their own dragon school.

Also Straid is a powerful sorcerer and in Dark Souls 1 Vinheim was definitely a land known for it's sorcery.

 

[cgentero]

Your whole theory is based on the idea that Drangleic isn't Lordran, which IMO is disproven by dialogue with Straid.

Actually if you look at the Lingering Dragoncrest Ring in Dark Souls 2 it has the description "A ring used long, long ago in the land where Drangleic is now" This ring in Dark Souls 1 was "A special ring granted to only the most accomplished sorcerers at Vinheim Dragon School." Which would seem to imply that Drangleic was not Lordran, but Vinheim instead. Plus they had their own dragon school.

Also Straid is a powerful sorcerer and in Dark Souls 1 Vinheim was definitely a land known for it's sorcery.

The Slumbering Dragon Ring is in the game too it reads

An old ring of the Melfian Magic Academy.
Depicts a soundly slumbering dragon.
Masks the sounds made by its wearer.

The precise origins of the Magic Academy are
hazy, for over its long history, its faculty has been
dissolved and reestablished at least a dozen times.

Which at first seems like it supports your theory(ie Melfia is the forgotten name of Vinheim) however Rosabeth is from Melfia and she is a pyromancer and the items she sells all refer to Melfia as a pyromancy school which would suggest Lordran.

 

[BraveSirRobin]

An old ring of the Melfian Magic Academy.
Depicts a soundly slumbering dragon.
Masks the sounds made by its wearer.

The precise origins of the Magic Academy are
hazy, for over its long history, its faculty has been
dissolved and reestablished at least a dozen times.

Which at first seems like it supports your theory(ie Melfia is the forgotten name of Vinheim) however Rosabeth is from Melfia and she is a pyromancer and the items she sells all refer to Melfia as a pyromancy school which would suggest Lordran.

Pyromancy was never unique to Lordran just frowned upon outside of it. It says that the Melfian Magic Academy was dissolved and reestablished over the years and you want to imply that that means it reformed in Lordran but, given the ring still uses the name "Melfia", I'd be more likely to believe that rather when it reformed in Melfia (AKA Vinheim) that it instead reformed with an altered focus on pyromancy.

Spoiler: Very End Game/Final Boss/NG++ Drop Spoilers

Especially given that the old lord souls are in Drangleic under the possession of the 4 powerful demons. What better reason to reform a once prominent school of magic than to resurrect the art of fire as a new age dawns at their doorstep.

The Emerald Herald also tells you that it is a cycle of successive ages of light and dark, and has it happened before and will happen again dependent on what you do. It's not hard to see how it could have played out. Each of the souls found a comparable home and the Lost Sinner (who holds the old Witch's Soul) tried to extend the age and failed as undeath returned to the world.

It also makes some sense that the dragons would get the hell out of Lordran and probably would not go back there given the history.

 

[JaxxtheII]

I have a theory about the boss The Lost Sinner. Could it be possible that he is actually Artorias? He wields a greatsword, he does crazy acrobatics, I could be wrong (as I never got to play the abyss dlc in dark souls 1) but Artorias did succumb to insanity in the abyss did he not? Maybe he escaped and was imprisoned on the Sinner's Rise? The bug crawling into his eye doesn't make any sense but I think it's a possibility.

 

[Mahorfeus]

I have a theory about the boss The Lost Sinner. Could it be possible that he is actually Artorias? He wields a greatsword, he does crazy acrobatics, I could be wrong (as I never got to play the abyss dlc in dark souls 1) but Artorias did succumb to insanity in the abyss did he not? Maybe he escaped and was imprisoned on the Sinner's Rise? The bug crawling into his eye doesn't make any sense but I think it's a possibility.

Averted by the fact that the Lost Sinner is a woman.

 

[Lictor Face]

I have a theory about the boss The Lost Sinner. Could it be possible that he is actually Artorias? He wields a greatsword, he does crazy acrobatics, I could be wrong (as I never got to play the abyss dlc in dark souls 1) but Artorias did succumb to insanity in the abyss did he not? Maybe he escaped and was imprisoned on the Sinner's Rise? The bug crawling into his eye doesn't make any sense but I think it's a possibility.

Seriously doubt it. He could be Artorias reshaped when Lordran transitioned into Draglaic because "lol time stream", but that is highly unlikely.

I think we can all safely say that Artorias went batshit after being corrupted by the Abyss, and the Furtive Pygmy staved his skull in during the events of the first game.

 

[ImperialSunlight]

I haven't found much, but I guarantee that the Emerald Prophet is tied directly to the bonfires in a major way. The fact that she gives you your first Estus, upgrades the flasks AND allows you to level up, something that an undead can do anywhere in the future.

Spoiler: Spoilers for a late npc

According to a few npcs including the guy in Aldia's Keep who asks you to kill her, she is a firekeeper. So... that explains that.

Pyromancy was never unique to Lordran just frowned upon outside of it.

Apart, of course, from the Great Swamp.

I am interested as to the relation of the giants in Dark Souls 2 to those in Dark Souls (such as Hawkeye Gough), if there is one. Haven't explored that much as of yet, though. There might be something in the lore about that.

 

[Tuxedoman]

So i'm a bit further through now, and this has been niggling at me for a while now; What is up with Ricard's Rapier and it being in Huntsman's Copse? I know that the region was used as a storage ground for undead, much like the undead asylum, except rather than just leave the undead to wallow and go hollow they were tortured and hunted down for sport. In time the guards went hollow just as their prisoners did, but that doesn't explain how the rapier of a legendary "hero" ends up in a chest below a bunch of moths.

Any insights?

 

[Ferisar]

Seriously doubt it. He could be Artorias reshaped when Lordran transitioned into Draglaic because "lol time stream", but that is highly unlikely.

I think we can all safely say that Artorias went batshit after being corrupted by the Abyss, and the Furtive Pygmy staved his thighs in during the events of the first game.

There you go, I think that's a bit more likely.

Seriously, Artorias wasn't corrupted by the Abyss, he was driven mad by leg day.

 

[sXeth]

The Lost Sinner is a 'she' according to her soul description. Granted, there is that gender-switching coffin floating around, but I'm guessing not.

 

[ImperialSunlight]

So i'm a bit further through now, and this has been niggling at me for a while now; What is up with Ricard's Rapier and it being in Huntsman's Copse? I know that the region was used as a storage ground for undead, much like the undead asylum, except rather than just leave the undead to wallow and go hollow they were tortured and hunted down for sport. In time the guards went hollow just as their prisoners did, but that doesn't explain how the rapier of a legendary "hero" ends up in a chest below a bunch of moths.

Any insights?

Nothing on the rapier. There are any number of ways it could have got there. The description is interesting, if vague.

The moths are interesting. Could have something to do with the moonlight butterflies... which is a link to that glorious duke, who is implied to be linked to something else as well...

Spoiler

Duke's Dear Freya? A mutated spider? With the bones of a dragon near it? Yeah, I don't think we'll be getting an Old Duke boss fight.

 

[Souplex]

Your whole theory is based on the idea that Drangleic isn't Lordran, which IMO is disproven by dialogue with Straid.

Straid just says something to the effect of "Many nations have risen and fallen upon this land, mine was not the first, and I see it wasn't the last." (Paraphrased)
He never mentions Lordran. His land was apparently called "Olphais"

 

[FlyAwayAutumn]

I have a theory about the boss The Lost Sinner. Could it be possible that he is actually Artorias? He wields a greatsword, he does crazy acrobatics, I could be wrong (as I never got to play the abyss dlc in dark souls 1) but Artorias did succumb to insanity in the abyss did he not? Maybe he escaped and was imprisoned on the Sinner's Rise? The bug crawling into his eye doesn't make any sense but I think it's a possibility.

Lost Sinner is a girl, besides Artorias was slain by the chosen undead after he succumbed to the Abyss.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

Lost Sinner is a girl, besides Artorias was slain by the chosen undead after he succumbed to the Abyss.

Yeah, the official guide uses female pronouns with her. Furthermore, it's revealed that she holds

Spoiler

the remnants of the Soul of the Witch of Izalith

The Lost Sinner is a bit of a mystery since it's not really known what she actually is. The guide gives some more insight to her. Interestingly, it also seems that she was in Sinner's Rise willingly.

 

[Mahorfeus]

The Lost Sinner's crime was her attempt to light the First Flame, which would imply that it has gone out, and that humanity has been in the Age of Dark for some time now. Either that, or the Flame is on the verge of death. This is compatible with either ending of the first Dark Souls, since the flame would eventually go out even with a "Chosen Undead" to rekindle it. If that is true, then the Abyss has not consumed everything yet. The Abyss covenant might shed some light on that.

Any thoughts on who the individual gods might be? One of the lore descriptions suggested that their names might have changed over time, just as those of the kingdoms have.

 

[Kopikatsu]

So i'm a bit further through now, and this has been niggling at me for a while now; What is up with Ricard's Rapier and it being in Huntsman's Copse? I know that the region was used as a storage ground for undead, much like the undead asylum, except rather than just leave the undead to wallow and go hollow they were tortured and hunted down for sport. In time the guards went hollow just as their prisoners did, but that doesn't explain how the rapier of a legendary "hero" ends up in a chest below a bunch of moths.

Any insights?

Nothing on the rapier. There are any number of ways it could have got there. The description is interesting, if vague.

The moths are interesting. Could have something to do with the moonlight butterflies... which is a link to that glorious duke, who is implied to be linked to something else as well...

Spoiler

Duke's Dear Freya? A mutated spider? With the bones of a dragon near it? Yeah, I don't think we'll be getting an Old Duke boss fight.

As for your spoiler, you can use the Ashen Mist Heart to dive into that pile of bones. The bones don't belong to who you think they do.

'Duke' could simply be the man in the next room after the boss chamber. But on the other hand, on NG++ (or NG/NG+ with Bonfire Ascetics), the boss drops the Paledrake Soul which is used to craft the Moonlight Greatsword. So it's unclear.

 

[Tuxedoman]

As for your spoiler, you can use the Ashen Mist Heart to dive into that pile of bones. The bones don't belong to who you think they do.

'Duke' could simply be the man in the next room after the boss chamber. But on the other hand, on NG++ (or NG/NG+ with Bonfire Ascetics), the boss drops the Paledrake Soul which is used to craft the Moonlight Greatsword. So it's unclear.

Im fairly certain that the 'Paledrake' is who we think it is. In the Shaded Woods, there is a cool dude called Scorpion Taruk. He has some insights about the state of the region, and literally says that he is one of Seath's experiments, as are all the other creatures you see in the zone. This makes sense considering the sheer number of curses in the zone. Those laughing urns are also very curious. If they are indeed an offshoot of Seath's research then that would insinuate that the pre-skeletal lords may have attempted to utilise them for... some reason. That is only based on the fact that they are chilling out in the Hunstman's Copse, hidden away in a dark cave with necromancers and skeletons.

I would personally chalk up the number of books and bookcases in Brightstone Cove as being related to Seath as well; his followers realising that some mute undead had slain their master may have taken as much research as they could and started up somewhere else. However, maybe someone simply came across Seath's Lordsoul and decided to roll with it.

On an unrelated note; Friendly phantoms are immune to curses. Can't explain that one, maybe it's just a bug?

 

[Talinvar]

Really awesome speculation so far! I have just one question for you guys, since you seem to be a lot more knowledgeable about the overall lore than I am.

There's a lot of talk about the Giants, who they are or might have been, and where they came from. I notice that no one seems to have linked this to the "Tomb of Giants" area in Dark Souls, in the Catacombs down in Nito's realm. Any thoughts on how that might tie together? Or do you think the name is just coincidentally similar? (I have my doubts about that, considering how meticulous everything else is laid out.)

I'm also surprised that there's been no link to Hawkeye Gough or the other giant blacksmith dude in Anor Londo.

 

[Falcondynamite]

I have a theory about the boss The Lost Sinner. Could it be possible that he is actually Artorias? He wields a greatsword, he does crazy acrobatics, I could be wrong (as I never got to play the abyss dlc in dark souls 1) but Artorias did succumb to insanity in the abyss did he not? Maybe he escaped and was imprisoned on the Sinner's Rise? The bug crawling into his eye doesn't make any sense but I think it's a possibility.

Lost sinner is a lady.
Artorias was a bro
Unless Artorias was a lady too and things were going south with him and the implied lady friend he had.

However they sure as fuck fight similarly though.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I have a theory about the boss The Lost Sinner. Could it be possible that he is actually Artorias? He wields a greatsword, he does crazy acrobatics, I could be wrong (as I never got to play the abyss dlc in dark souls 1) but Artorias did succumb to insanity in the abyss did he not? Maybe he escaped and was imprisoned on the Sinner's Rise? The bug crawling into his eye doesn't make any sense but I think it's a possibility.

Lost sinner is a lady.
Artorias was a bro
Unless Artorias was a lady too and things were going south with him and the implied lady friend he had.

However they sure as fuck fight similarly though.

Being corrupted by the abyss gives you a sex change, confirmed.

Or maybe Artorius was just "gender fluid."