Seath would definitely be a dealer on the market of "exotic" creatures.
He must've played Demons Souls and thought of the armored Spider but with two heads. No wonder Gwynevere liked his mad science. I'm sure they had a few pets, like the oogly blue things in his prison/library.
Really awesome speculation so far! I have just one question for you guys, since you seem to be a lot more knowledgeable about the overall lore than I am.
There's a lot of talk about the Giants, who they are or might have been, and where they came from. I notice that no one seems to have linked this to the "Tomb of Giants" area in Dark Souls, in the Catacombs down in Nito's realm. Any thoughts on how that might tie together? Or do you think the name is just coincidentally similar? (I have my doubts about that, considering how meticulous everything else is laid out.)
I'm also surprised that there's been no link to Hawkeye Gough or the other giant blacksmith dude in Anor Londo.
Im just going out on a limb here, but im fairly certain that the giants are the race that the gods are in Dark Souls 1 (Hence why Anor Londo has massive stairs and tiny stairs, and why the guards are so huuge).
The Tomb of the Giants was where the giants were buried in Dark souls 1, probably after the war with the dragons as one would assume there were pretty massive losses on both sides during that war. Im guessing that when the Bed of Chaos was formed, Nito basically said "Yo Gwyn, im out. Peace" and holed himself up down in the tomb with all the death and decay. Nito seems to be the only holder of a Lord Soul who is not insane, and ill be honest, if I was a lord of darkness and decay I would probably hide rather than fight giant ass fire demons.
Flash forward to Dark Souls 2. Im assuming the Age of Dark has been ongoing for some time and the land seems to be dominated by humans. Humanity won its war with the giants according to some item texts, but at such a cost that the both sides were left broken. Im not sure if it is due to the decay of time, or the decay of humans that left Heide in such a state, but regardless it got pretty wrecked. The giant guards still stand there, just like in Anor Londo, but rather than guarding some majestic city they're hollow and guarding an ancient ruin.
Batman Ornstein is still chilling there as well, wielding his dark powers like he just don't care.
I think the links between the Tomb of the Giants and the number of giants in Dark Souls 2 is simply that they are the same species, just far later in time.
But that made me think of something else. Item texts say that humanity won the war against the giants, yet the human lands seem to be far worse off than the giant dominated ones when it comes to creepy beasties.
Despite humanity's best efforts, it was probably doing badly in its war with the giants. They had superior strength, magic and knowledge. The Skeletal lords may have tried delving into Seath's research and grabbing his curse-urns not due to a wish to torture the undead, but as a weapon. Likewise, the Abyss was likely called upon as a weapon to fight off the giants which would also explain why hexes all of a sudden common knowledge. That would explain why the Heide Knights move in a very similar way to Artorias, why hexes are everywhere, why abyssal creatures are all over no-man's wharf, why Harvest Valley has slaves being overwatched by wardens riding creatures that can cast abyss-powers and why the abyss seems to be raring its head everywhere in this game.
This is just speculation, and there are no doubt many things I have overlooked. So yah.
Really awesome speculation so far! I have just one question for you guys, since you seem to be a lot more knowledgeable about the overall lore than I am.
There's a lot of talk about the Giants, who they are or might have been, and where they came from. I notice that no one seems to have linked this to the "Tomb of Giants" area in Dark Souls, in the Catacombs down in Nito's realm. Any thoughts on how that might tie together? Or do you think the name is just coincidentally similar? (I have my doubts about that, considering how meticulous everything else is laid out.)
I'm also surprised that there's been no link to Hawkeye Gough or the other giant blacksmith dude in Anor Londo.
Im just going out on a limb here, but im fairly certain that the giants are the race that the gods are in Dark Souls 1 (Hence why Anor Londo has massive stairs and tiny stairs, and why the guards are so huuge).
The Tomb of the Giants was where the giants were buried in Dark souls 1, probably after the war with the dragons as one would assume there were pretty massive losses on both sides during that war. Im guessing that when the Bed of Chaos was formed, Nito basically said "Yo Gwyn, im out. Peace" and holed himself up down in the tomb with all the death and decay. Nito seems to be the only holder of a Lord Soul who is not insane, and ill be honest, if I was a lord of darkness and decay I would probably hide rather than fight giant ass fire demons.
Flash forward to Dark Souls 2. Im assuming the Age of Dark has been ongoing for some time and the land seems to be dominated by humans. Humanity won its war with the giants according to some item texts, but at such a cost that the both sides were left broken. Im not sure if it is due to the decay of time, or the decay of humans that left Heide in such a state, but regardless it got pretty wrecked. The giant guards still stand there, just like in Anor Londo, but rather than guarding some majestic city they're hollow and guarding an ancient ruin.
Batman Ornstein is still chilling there as well, wielding his dark powers like he just don't care.
I think the links between the Tomb of the Giants and the number of giants in Dark Souls 2 is simply that they are the same species, just far later in time.
But that made me think of something else. Item texts say that humanity won the war against the giants, yet the human lands seem to be far worse off than the giant dominated ones when it comes to creepy beasties.
Despite humanity's best efforts, it was probably doing badly in its war with the giants. They had superior strength, magic and knowledge. The Skeletal lords may have tried delving into Seath's research and grabbing his curse-urns not due to a wish to torture the undead, but as a weapon. Likewise, the Abyss was likely called upon as a weapon to fight off the giants which would also explain why hexes all of a sudden common knowledge. That would explain why the Heide Knights move in a very similar way to Artorias, why hexes are everywhere, why abyssal creatures are all over no-man's wharf, why Harvest Valley has slaves being overwatched by wardens riding creatures that can cast abyss-powers and why the abyss seems to be raring its head everywhere in this game.
This is just speculation, and there are no doubt many things I have overlooked. So yah.
It could also be that the giants were the ones holding off the monsters from coming through the abyss, and when the majority of them were killed by the humans the abyss was no longer guarded against nearly as well, allowing monsters to flow through it freely. Like you said, the giants had superior strength, magic, and knowledge, so once they were gone it was easy for creatures from the abyss to start taking over.
Really awesome speculation so far! I have just one question for you guys, since you seem to be a lot more knowledgeable about the overall lore than I am.
There's a lot of talk about the Giants, who they are or might have been, and where they came from. I notice that no one seems to have linked this to the "Tomb of Giants" area in Dark Souls, in the Catacombs down in Nito's realm. Any thoughts on how that might tie together? Or do you think the name is just coincidentally similar? (I have my doubts about that, considering how meticulous everything else is laid out.)
I'm also surprised that there's been no link to Hawkeye Gough or the other giant blacksmith dude in Anor Londo.
Im just going out on a limb here, but im fairly certain that the giants are the race that the gods are in Dark Souls 1 (Hence why Anor Londo has massive stairs and tiny stairs, and why the guards are so huuge).
The Tomb of the Giants was where the giants were buried in Dark souls 1, probably after the war with the dragons as one would assume there were pretty massive losses on both sides during that war. Im guessing that when the Bed of Chaos was formed, Nito basically said "Yo Gwyn, im out. Peace" and holed himself up down in the tomb with all the death and decay. Nito seems to be the only holder of a Lord Soul who is not insane, and ill be honest, if I was a lord of darkness and decay I would probably hide rather than fight giant ass fire demons.
Flash forward to Dark Souls 2. Im assuming the Age of Dark has been ongoing for some time and the land seems to be dominated by humans. Humanity won its war with the giants according to some item texts, but at such a cost that the both sides were left broken. Im not sure if it is due to the decay of time, or the decay of humans that left Heide in such a state, but regardless it got pretty wrecked. The giant guards still stand there, just like in Anor Londo, but rather than guarding some majestic city they're hollow and guarding an ancient ruin.
Batman Ornstein is still chilling there as well, wielding his dark powers like he just don't care.
I think the links between the Tomb of the Giants and the number of giants in Dark Souls 2 is simply that they are the same species, just far later in time.
But that made me think of something else. Item texts say that humanity won the war against the giants, yet the human lands seem to be far worse off than the giant dominated ones when it comes to creepy beasties.
Despite humanity's best efforts, it was probably doing badly in its war with the giants. They had superior strength, magic and knowledge. The Skeletal lords may have tried delving into Seath's research and grabbing his curse-urns not due to a wish to torture the undead, but as a weapon. Likewise, the Abyss was likely called upon as a weapon to fight off the giants which would also explain why hexes all of a sudden common knowledge. That would explain why the Heide Knights move in a very similar way to Artorias, why hexes are everywhere, why abyssal creatures are all over no-man's wharf, why Harvest Valley has slaves being overwatched by wardens riding creatures that can cast abyss-powers and why the abyss seems to be raring its head everywhere in this game.
This is just speculation, and there are no doubt many things I have overlooked. So yah.
I imagine the reason that the Abyss and it's powers/creatures are so prevalent in Drangleic is because
The Queen, Nashandra, is a reincarnation of Manus. The weapon descriptions made from her soul imply that she is only one of many reincarnations who happened to revive the fastest because she was the smallest fragment (and consequently the weakest). I think it's entirely possible that Dark Souls 3 will have you travel across the world, seeking out and destroying the fragments of Manus scattered throughout the world.
I think you're right about Anor Londo (and by extension, Lordran) being territory of the Giants. Vendrick and his armies stole the Great Souls from the Giants, which is what started the war to begin with (This is also why Freya has Seath's Soul, Rotten has Nito's Soul, Sinner has the Witch's Soul, and Old Iron King has Gwyn's Soul.) In the Memories, it shows the Giants absolutely annihilating the human forces of Drangleic, and a soldier admits that the kingdom will likely fall to them.
By the time of the game, nearly all of the Giants seem to have been killed in the fighting, but obviously Drangleic didn't fare even that well due to the Queen's meddling...
But when all is said and done, I believe the Chosen Undead from DS1 is the most powerful being in-universe.
Okay so I beat the game 2 days after it came out and i'm on my second playthrough but this one i'm exploring everything.. From what i've gathered all of the great souls you acquire are reincarnations of the foul bosses in dark souls one.. The lost sinner actually inherited the Izalith soul... Freja is DEFINITELY Seathe reincarnate.. I'm pretty sure the rotton is Nito and The Iron King I can't really think of who he could be.. I know for a fact that The queen is the remains of Manus.. She came across the see and she is actually what the giants were after... I need to read more descriptions on items and what not but that's what i've come up with.. Not very good at describing stuff I usually just read the forums but i've managed to piece a lot of stuff together... Never thought about Solaire though.. If you look closely at the king of the giants though he has the same crown as Gwyn, I find that kind of interesting also.. His sword is not as awesome as gwyns though.. But when I hear land of the giants I think of anor lando.. I'm just trying to figure out how the lost sinner obtained the witch of izaliths soul.. Aldia is also an interesting character, I for some reason think of big hat logan but who the hell knows this game is like crack I want the third to come out... This games story put into a movie saga would pooh all over lord of the rings though.. Thanks for all the posts it's a joy to read hope to hear more from you all.. If you took the time to read this, hope it helps.. Forgive my spelling.
Can you explain what you mean by this? At the end of Dark Souls, the Chosen Undead sacrifices himself to link the bonfires, no? (I'm assuming that the link-the-fire ending is the "canonical" one, since Drangleic isn't consumed in an Age of Darkness.) If he did indeed sacrifice himself in the same manner that Gwyn did, then at best he would be a hollowed out shell, just like Gwyn was. But I find that unlikely -- Gwyn managed to hold on to some vestige of his former self and become the Lord of Cinder, but he was a deity. The Chosen Undead is no more than a human afflicted with the Darksign, so it seems likely that when he sacrificed himself to link the flame, he was simply consumed entirely.
Can you explain what you mean by this? At the end of Dark Souls, the Chosen Undead sacrifices himself to link the bonfires, no? (I'm assuming that the link-the-fire ending is the "canonical" one, since Drangleic isn't consumed in an Age of Darkness.) If he did indeed sacrifice himself in the same manner that Gwyn did, then at best he would be a hollowed out shell, just like Gwyn was. But I find that unlikely -- Gwyn managed to hold on to some vestige of his former self and become the Lord of Cinder, but he was a deity. The Chosen Undead is no more than a human afflicted with the Darksign, so it seems likely that when he sacrificed himself to link the flame, he was simply consumed entirely.
The Chosen Undead defeated all four holders of the Great Souls (all effectively Gods in their own right) and destroyed Manus. With the revelation that
Manus' fragments were scattered across the world, and the very smallest and weakest of the bunch ends up being the final boss for DS2,
I'd say that makes the Chosen Undead many leagues stronger than DS2's protagonist, and quite probably the strongest being in existence sans possible divinity. Especially since most of the enemies they face are literally cheap knockoffs of the originals. Rotten having Nito's Soul, Sinner having the Witch's Soul, etc.
Can you explain what you mean by this? At the end of Dark Souls, the Chosen Undead sacrifices himself to link the bonfires, no? (I'm assuming that the link-the-fire ending is the "canonical" one, since Drangleic isn't consumed in an Age of Darkness.) If he did indeed sacrifice himself in the same manner that Gwyn did, then at best he would be a hollowed out shell, just like Gwyn was. But I find that unlikely -- Gwyn managed to hold on to some vestige of his former self and become the Lord of Cinder, but he was a deity. The Chosen Undead is no more than a human afflicted with the Darksign, so it seems likely that when he sacrificed himself to link the flame, he was simply consumed entirely.
The Chosen Undead defeated all four holders of the Great Souls (all effectively Gods in their own right) and destroyed Manus. With the revelation that
Manus' fragments were scattered across the world, and the very smallest and weakest of the bunch ends up being the final boss for DS2,
I'd say that makes the Chosen Undead many leagues stronger than DS2's protagonist, and quite probably the strongest being in existence sans possible divinity. Especially since most of the enemies they face are literally cheap knockoffs of the originals. Rotten having Nito's Soul, Sinner having the Witch's Soul, etc.
Ah, I see. I thought you meant that he was still in existence during the Dark Souls 2 time period. You're just saying that over the course of Dark Souls history, he was the most powerful entity, correct?
Also, it's worth noting that all of the major entities that the Chosen Undead defeats in Dark Souls also only have fragments of Lord Souls,
just as the boss in Dark Souls 2 has only a fragment of the Dark Soul
. The Four Kings and Seathe both only have a fragment of Gwyn's, while the remainder of Gwyn's was essentially sacrificed to link the fire the first time. The description of Nito's Lord Soul states that most of its power has already been drained by being "offered to death".
The entity with the strongest soul that the Chosen Undead defeats is probably the Bed of Chaos, which seems to have the Witch of Izalith's Lord Soul largely undiminished (according, again, to the item description). Though we can probably infer from context that the Bed of Chaos constantly spawning demons depletes the power of the Lord Soul in a similar manner to other explicit mechanics. The Bed of Chaos is also not a particularly strong entity in itself (i.e., with a lot of combat prowess), so the Chosen Undead would be able to defeat this entity despite it having the power of a very strong Lord Soul (which provided the Bed of Chaos with the power to create demons, but not any great combative power).
Can you explain what you mean by this? At the end of Dark Souls, the Chosen Undead sacrifices himself to link the bonfires, no? (I'm assuming that the link-the-fire ending is the "canonical" one, since Drangleic isn't consumed in an Age of Darkness.) If he did indeed sacrifice himself in the same manner that Gwyn did, then at best he would be a hollowed out shell, just like Gwyn was. But I find that unlikely -- Gwyn managed to hold on to some vestige of his former self and become the Lord of Cinder, but he was a deity. The Chosen Undead is no more than a human afflicted with the Darksign, so it seems likely that when he sacrificed himself to link the flame, he was simply consumed entirely.
The Chosen Undead defeated all four holders of the Great Souls (all effectively Gods in their own right) and destroyed Manus. With the revelation that
Manus' fragments were scattered across the world, and the very smallest and weakest of the bunch ends up being the final boss for DS2,
I'd say that makes the Chosen Undead many leagues stronger than DS2's protagonist, and quite probably the strongest being in existence sans possible divinity. Especially since most of the enemies they face are literally cheap knockoffs of the originals. Rotten having Nito's Soul, Sinner having the Witch's Soul, etc.
Ah, I see. I thought you meant that he was still in existence during the Dark Souls 2 time period. You're just saying that over the course of Dark Souls history, he was the most powerful entity, correct?
Also, it's worth noting that all of the major entities that the Chosen Undead defeats in Dark Souls also only have fragments of Lord Souls,
just as the boss in Dark Souls 2 has only a fragment of the Dark Soul
. The Four Kings and Seathe both only have a fragment of Gwyn's, while the remainder of Gwyn's was essentially sacrificed to link the fire the first time. The description of Nito's Lord Soul states that most of its power has already been drained by being "offered to death".
The entity with the strongest soul that the Chosen Undead defeats is probably the Bed of Chaos, which seems to have the Witch of Izalith's Lord Soul largely undiminished (according, again, to the item description). Though we can probably infer from context that the Bed of Chaos constantly spawning demons depletes the power of the Lord Soul in a similar manner to other explicit mechanics. The Bed of Chaos is also not a particularly strong entity in itself (i.e., with a lot of combat prowess), so the Chosen Undead would be able to defeat this entity despite it having the power of a very strong Lord Soul (which provided the Bed of Chaos with the power to create demons, but not any great combative power).
I can't really disagree with your examples, but they weren't the primary focus to begin with. Defeating Manus is pretty much the main reason I say the Chosen Undead is the strongest; especially since Manus had already subjugated figures that were legendary for their ability such as Artorias.
I can't really disagree with your examples, but they weren't the primary focus to begin with. Defeating Manus is pretty much the main reason I say the Chosen Undead is the strongest; especially since Manus had already subjugated figures that were legendary for their ability such as Artorias.
Makes sense. Though if the whole "Humanity is actually a fragment of the Dark Soul" theory is correct, then the Dark Soul which Manus holds is actually the most fragmented Lord Soul of all, dispersed among all humans (and nasty rats that feed on humans, haha).
Also assumes that Manus is the Furtive Pygmy, which some people dispute.
It's possible, but the "Gods" in DS1 seemed to just be Giant Humans who were either immortal or lived a long time (or they might also have been cursed with the Darksign like the Chosen Undead). I wouldn't call foul if the Chosen Undead was revealed to be trapped in the Kiln like Gwyn was and still alive and hollow.
So, about the Lost Sinner. People have already mentioned how similar her fighting style is to Artorias's. The only female even remotely related (story-wise) to Artorias is Lord's Blade Ciaran. Any chance it's her? She doesn't have her classic weapons, but that could be a function of her being a prisoner. If not, maybe he had an apprentice, or maybe the Lost Sinner is from the same place (and thus taught in the same "school" of combat) as Artorias.
No idea how she would've gotten a hold of the Witch of Izalith's/the Bed of Chaos's Lord Soul. Regardless of who she is or was.
I also think it's interesting that the "Lost Sinner" is bound and shackled in the same general area where you found the Bishop of Velka in Dark Souls 1 (in the bell tower after the Gargoyles). Perhaps the Lost Sinner was being brought to justice by the Darkmoon Blades or their equivalent? Or perhaps she was journeying to see the Bishop in order to erase her sins? She would have had to gather a huge amount of souls in order for Velka to erase her sins, certainly.
Side note: I feel like there was a boss in Dark Souls 1 that also had a bug crawl into/around/onto it. Anyone remember anything like that?
One more thing about Ciaran being the Lost Sinner: Ciaran had a mask, just like the Lost Sinner does. The description of it (http://darksouls.wikidot.com/porcelain-mask) says that she had to work hard to earn her porcelain one. The Lost Sinner's (http://darksouls.wikia.com/wiki/Lost_Sinner) is apparently iron. So perhaps, even if she's not Ciaran herself, that she is another Lord's Blade?
It would also make sense for Ciaran or a Lord's Blade to try and kindle the First Flame, being Gwyn's warriors.
It says the Duke became something far from human, implied to be a spider creature.
I'm pondering if he became another spider and exercised his *ahem* fondness for them with Freya, then got eaten, as is the traditional cliche of spider mating.
King Vendrick stole the Great Souls from the land of the Giants, which started the war between Drangleic and the Giants in the first place. My assumption is Queen Nashandra then distributed those souls to the strongest Undead on Drangleic in order to find a worthy successor to the Throne of Want.
Seth Carter said:
It says the Duke became something far from human, implied to be a spider creature.
I'm pondering if he became another spider and exercised his *ahem* fondness for them with Freya, then got eaten, as is the traditional cliche of spider mating.
So, about the Lost Sinner. People have already mentioned how similar her fighting style is to Artorias's. The only female even remotely related (story-wise) to Artorias is Lord's Blade Ciaran. Any chance it's her? She doesn't have her classic weapons, but that could be a function of her being a prisoner. If not, maybe he had an apprentice, or maybe the Lost Sinner is from the same place (and thus taught in the same "school" of combat) as Artorias.
No idea how she would've gotten a hold of the Witch of Izalith's/the Bed of Chaos's Lord Soul. Regardless of who she is or was.
I also think it's interesting that the "Lost Sinner" is bound and shackled in the same general area where you found the Bishop of Velka in Dark Souls 1 (in the bell tower after the Gargoyles). Perhaps the Lost Sinner was being brought to justice by the Darkmoon Blades or their equivalent? Or perhaps she was journeying to see the Bishop in order to erase her sins? She would have had to gather a huge amount of souls in order for Velka to erase her sins, certainly.
Side note: I feel like there was a boss in Dark Souls 1 that also had a bug crawl into/around/onto it. Anyone remember anything like that?
One more thing about Ciaran being the Lost Sinner: Ciaran had a mask, just like the Lost Sinner does. The description of it (http://darksouls.wikidot.com/porcelain-mask) says that she had to work hard to earn her porcelain one. The Lost Sinner's (http://darksouls.wikia.com/wiki/Lost_Sinner) is apparently iron. So perhaps, even if she's not Ciaran herself, that she is another Lord's Blade?
It would also make sense for Ciaran or a Lord's Blade to try and kindle the First Flame, being Gwyn's warriors.
The Bed of Chaos itself, it was being controlled by the same bug that burrowed into the Lost Sinner. I think the bug is the real link between the Lost Sinner and the Witch of Izalith/Bed of Chaos. How and why, i don't really know. Maybe it's just what that species of bug does, or maybe there's something more to it.
Okay, I came up with some theories about some Dark Souls 2 related stuff, but I want to re-iterate that these are just *theories*, meant for *fun discussion*, and I hope no one gets too upset over them. Please note that all of this is from Dark Souls 1 and 2, as I have never played Demon's Souls. This is VERY LONG. I split it up into spoiler categories so that you can pick and choose what you want to read, but overall, it's a big post.
Theory 1: On Drangleic and Lordran
Drangleic is built on the same lands that Lordran was built on. Lordran fell after the inevitable age of Dark (since even if you link the fire, it will eventually extinguish -- See: Straid's dialogue, Gwyn failing to link the flame permanently), and multiple kingdoms have risen and fallen in the time since (See: every character in Dark Souls 2 [including Straid] that references "Many kingdoms have risen and fallen on this very spot..." [Chloanne, I think, also says something to this effect]).
You also find far too many artifacts from Lordran for it to be a coincidence. You can find all of Havel's gear, you can find Black Knight weapons, you can find Ricard's Rapier, the Knight/Elite Knight sets are identical to Lordran's versions of them. There's no reason for these artifacts to be in a different place, unless something happened that I missed.
There's a line of dialogue in the opening cinematic where the Fire Keeper says:
" I believe they called it... Drangleic. Perhaps you've heard of it. No... how could you have?"
I think that this is intended as a meta hint for the player, implying "You have been there before, but not when it was called "Drangleic".
I think that the Melfian Magic Academy and the Clerics of Lindeldt formed because they found what remained of Vinheim Dragon School and the Thorolund Clerics, respectively. Licia of Lindeldt mentions that the Miracles that she and other clerics/priest use date back to the First Flame. This means that the clerics of Lindeldt did not invent or develop the miracles, and it is possible that they simply found and adopted them. The same would go for the Melfian Magic Academy, since the vast majority of spells in the game are the same as in Dark Souls, with what would have been available from Vinheim.
Then there's the fact that the four "big bosses" that drop wondrous souls drop an additional soul in NG+ - namely, BoC's, Nito's, Four Kings (possibly Gwyn instead of 4K), and Seath's soul. In the description for each of them, it says that they still exert power over "this land".
Theory 2: On Anor Londo and Vendrick
I really do not think that Vendrick stole anything from Anor Londo. I do not think that the Giants in Dark Souls 2 are the Giants from Dark Souls 1.
First, if my first theory is true (which it may not be), then there's no ocean for the Giants to cross to get to Drangleic, given how Anor Londo was oriented with Lordran.
Second, the physical appearances of the Giants in DkS2 are just way too different from Dark Souls for them to be the same. Now, I admit that I may have missed something very major in Dark Souls 1, but as far as I remember, there are no items, creatures, NPC's, or statues that imply that there are any Giants that look remotely like the Giants in DkS2.
There are two tales of what Vendrick did:
1. According to Wellager, Nashandra came and warned Vendrick about the "looming threat across the sea". This is vague, and it isn't clear if he means that the threat was immediate or if it was more of an "oh they're there, and they might some day do something". It's likely that he's lying, or that he's telling the truth as the King told it (if Nashandra was manipulating him, then he would never want to openly admit it), but even still, his story is that the King crossed the sea and defeated the Giants, bringing back the technology to make the Golems.
2. According to different items (I'm in the process of looking for them now, but you'll have to forgive me since I don't have the items themselves -- Disregard this if you want!), Vendrick crossed the sea and stole something from the Giants, which turned out to allow him to create the Golems.
According to the Giant Lord Soul, the Giants crossed the sea seeking an "invaluable prize". NOTE: Nowhere in this does it imply that they are seeking what was stolen from them, rather, they're seeking a PRIZE. Something that they did not have before, something that would be a fantastic boon to them were they to liberate it for themselves. It's possible that they, too, were manipulated by Nashandra, who ultimately wanted Drangleic to fall to the Abyss.
In both cases, Vendrick would have had to have gone to Anor Londo. The Giants in Dark Souls look like humans. The Furtive Pygmy is a regular sized human, but a Pygmy to the giants. Humans are literally mini-giants. There are giants like Gough (possibly Smough) and the Giant Blacksmith, but they're possibly a different race -- referred to as "Giants" because they're literally giant. So if Vendrick went to Anor Londo to steal this technology to make the golems, why would the golems be modeled after something he hadn't ever seen before? If the tech to make the golems was made by the Giants and just had a "play" button for him to push, why would the Giants of Anor Londo make them appear the way they did? Why would we see no evidence of them in Anor Londo?
We know that Giants can change their size, but I think it's a bit too much of a stretch to say that they can change their appearance as well. There's no precedent for this.
I think it's more likely that Heide set up his tower of flame in the Ruins of Anor Londo. Ornstein could be there because maybe the past Ornstein was just an illusion from Gwyndolin. Even if not, there's precedent for being able to re-create Souls: see the Iron Golem. We know that there are AT LEAST two other people who killed the Golem - Black Iron Tarkus and the Anor Londo Fire Keeper. They both would have attained its soul, and yet, you are there to fight it again and claim one for your own. Someone would have to be creating the soul and the being itself multiple times. So maybe someone just rebirthed Ornstein.
All of this combined makes me think that no, they're not the Giants from Anor Londo. To get my theory about what they are, see the next section.
Theory 3: On the Kingdom Rise/Fall Cycle
As mentioned before, I think that Drangleic is built on the same grounds that Lordran was built on. Straid says that many kingdoms rise and fall in "this very spot". That no matter how brilliant a flame, it will eventually sputter and die.
I think that when the Age of Dark comes, it heralds the abyss overtaking the kingdom, which corrupts life and eventually sees it die out. See: Oolacile. Linking the flame only prolongs the age of fire temporarily. In the final cutscene of Dark Souls 2, the Emerald Herald says:
"Once the flame is linked, souls will flourish anew, and all of this will play out again."
This is pretty on-the-nose in the sense that she literally means that if you link the flame, eventually it will fade and another hero will step forward to do exactly what you did, until someone breaks the cycle and does not link it. I think this is why they didn't give you the actual choice of what to do in Dark Souls 2, because much like in Dark Souls, the INEVITABILITY is the same -- eventually someone will refuse to link the flame, and a new Kingdom cycle will begin.
Now, here's where I start HEAVILY speculating (which is my favourite part):
I think that there is/are some force(s) which control the development of the kingdom.
One thing that has always bothered me is that if Drangleic is so far in the future from Lordran, why is the technology still the same and/or lesser? Well, probably because some force is guiding the development of the Kingdom before its inevitable collapse.
My Theory: Souls, particularly the Lord Souls, are what influence and guide the development of Kingdoms. I think that they are their own entities. They were merely adopted by the Giants in Dark Souls, they did not belong to them. They enriched the souls of those who found them, but if we look closely, we see that there are some interesting parallels.
In NG+, each of the bosses with a great souls drops an additional soul. I believe that the additional soul that they drop is informing you of what soul influenced their actions and who the are a parallel of.
1. The Lost Sinner is influenced by the Witch of Izalith; drops the OLD WITCH SOUL. SINNER: The Lost Sinner commits some horrible act that haunts her, and she winds up bound by her own hand, as punishment for her actions. WITCH: The Witch of Izalith committed a horrible act, and the results haunted and surrounded her at all times. She wound up bound (immobile) by her own hand, as a result of her actions.
2. The Duke of Tseldora is influenced by Seath's Soul; Freja drops the OLD PALEDRAKE SOUL. DUKE: Something made the Duke of Tseldora go insane. I believe he is the Hollow in the King's Study next to Freja's chamber. He had a habit of making new, mutated creatures (see Freja), and when the kingdom around him fell, he paid no mind at all. SEATH: His research into crystal made Seath go insane. Much like the Duke of Tseldora, he has a plethora of books at his disposal. He had a habit of making new, mutated creatures (see Moonlight Butterflies), and when the kingdom around him fell, he paid no mind at all.
3. The Old Iron King is influenced by the Four Kings; drops the OLD KING SOUL. IRON: His desire for grandeur caused his kingdom to melt into the ground. He was corrupted by "the forces that lurk below" (see: his soul), and his actions resulted in the destruction of his kingdom. KINGS: Their desire for power caused their kingdom to have to be sealed by the New Londo sealers. They were corrupted by "the forces that lurk below" (Kaathe), and their actions resulted in the destruction of their kingdom.
EDIT: Old King Soul suggested to be Gwyn's soul, not one of the Four Kings. See bottom of the post.
NOTE: The OLD KING SOUL could also potentially be Gwyn's soul. Gwyn and the Old Iron King would have both died by fire, their bodies both charred and burnt (as referenced by the OIK's soul). One could say that Gwyn was maybe manipulated by Frampt into linking the flame, which would have meant that Gwyn was "corrupted by what lurks below", and ultimately, he did see his kingdom fall to ruin.
4. The Rotten was influenced by Nito; drops the OLD DEAD ONE SOUL.
Now, this one is very superficial - they are both large masses of corpses. The only real potential link I could find is in the Rotten's soul description, which says that he "embraces all", much in the same way that death embraces all.
wow that's a lot of stuff
But okay, so, after all that, yes, I think that instead of there being a lot of "carryover" from the last game, there are a lot of "parallels", because every kingdom that rises and falls sees the same basic path, all influenced by the initial souls. That's where I think the Giants came from - it's not that they're the Giants from Anor Londo, it's that of course there are Giants, because life is developing from the souls of previous cycles, which included giants. This could explain the vastly different appearance.
It's not SOULS controlling development, it's the ABYSS. When Manus woke up and made the Abyss, he heralded the beginning of the endless cycle. He was defeated, but it's not like the Abyss just went away after that. Creepo McWheels in Dark Souls 2 talks about how the abyss itself has fragmented, and that's why when you join the Pilgrims of the Dark covenant, you can only visit slivers of the realm of the Abyss. But it doesn't make any sense at all that that would be the result of Manus' death.
Why? Well, because in Dark Souls, New Londo fell because the serpents of the Abyss corrupted the leaders and brought about the Darkwraiths. We know it was the Abyss that was responsible, because Artorias goes out of his way to traverse it and kill the Darkwraith problem at its source. If killing Manus caused the abyss to shatter, and not just himself, then there would be no Four Kings, and New Londo couldn't have ever fallen, since the Abyss wouldn't be at any sort of power level necessary to facilitate the corruption of New Londo.
I think that each cycle uses different beings to manipulate the Undead into following a path, so that there's never any trace of the manipulators from the previous cycle. We see and hear nothing of Primordial Serpents in DkS2 because the Abyss doesn't want there to be any possibility of it being found out. So the question is: who is it using in this cycle? I honestly don't know. Maybe the Emerald Herald? Maybe Shalquoir is helping?
All of the other Fire Keepers that we see in the game have just given up their duty. Why? Why did the old women decide to forsake Fire Keeping? Why do they mock the heroes that would keep the flame alight? Perhaps they discovered too much. Maybe they discovered the cycle, or maybe they discovered the manipulation. Either way, something caused them to stop tending the flame, and that's a big deal. The Emerald Herald, however, did not stop tending the flame. Remember: Fire Keepers are like Humanity Beacons, and their bodies contain intense amounts of humanity. If humanity is the Dark Soul, and the Dark Soul proliferated the Abyss, then saying "Fire Keepers are agents of the Abyss" is not too crazy. Does anyone find it weird that the Emerald Herald just appears at King Vendrick's door? That she just appears at the foot of Castle Drangleic? How did she get there? Shouldn't she be at her fire? What does she mean that the end of the Undead's journey will also bring about the end to hers? AND HERE'S AN EVEN BETTER QUESTION, GREEN WOMAN: Why do you lock the Undead away in an underground vault? There's no way for the Undead to link the flame if s/he's locked away, is there? But that's what you want, isn't it Emerald Herald - the Age of Dark. cheeky m8
Also remember that the curse of the Undead causes people to lose themselves and their memories, which causes Chloanne to remark that people are terrible with remembering history. Maybe it manufactured the curse so that no one would ever be able to remember enough about previous cycles to connect the dots.
OR MAYBE the Abyss is more like a purgatory - the people there are already dead, so maybe it just tries to keep them alive as long as possible before they finally go all the way Hollow, feeding off of their remaining life force. It creates these vast kingdoms because the people need to actually believe that they're alive.
The only question I'd ask is "why would the Abyss do this". And I don't know. But it's fun to think about!
I think that's enough for now, and I just want to re-iterate that I could be super wrong, but I had a lot of fun putting these together. Hopefully someone reads these and comes up with some cool, better theories of their own!
EDIT IN POINT 3: Old King Soul suggested to be the Soul of Gwyn, since
Straid can use it to make a miracle (requiring 65 Faith, holy balls) that was developed AND banned by Gwyn himself, meaning that the miracle wouldn't have been passed down through other clerics, and knowledge would be super restricted.
It says the Duke became something far from human, implied to be a spider creature.
I'm pondering if he became another spider and exercised his *ahem* fondness for them with Freya, then got eaten, as is the traditional cliche of spider mating.
Its in the description of the sword you have Ornifex make out of the soul (either of the options has the lore bit). If I go grab the wiki a second
Curved sword forged from the soul of the Duke's Dear Freja. Its blade is coated with a sticky silk that is cast with each strong attack, slowing enemy movement.
Supposedly, the duke himself, an eccentric soul fascinated with spiders, went on to take a form that was far from human.
Effect: movement slowdown (strong attack)
Wasn't that Hollow you're talking about Vengarth's headless body? Or am I mixing my directions about?
On less jokey thoughts, the Duke might be Tark having lost his memory and forgotten that he was the Master who made them monsters? Although thats a scorpion, not a spider.
It says the Duke became something far from human, implied to be a spider creature.
I'm pondering if he became another spider and exercised his *ahem* fondness for them with Freya, then got eaten, as is the traditional cliche of spider mating.
Its in the description of the sword you have Ornifex make out of the soul (either of the options has the lore bit). If I go grab the wiki a second
Curved sword forged from the soul of the Duke's Dear Freja. Its blade is coated with a sticky silk that is cast with each strong attack, slowing enemy movement.
Supposedly, the duke himself, an eccentric soul fascinated with spiders, went on to take a form that was far from human.
Effect: movement slowdown (strong attack)
Wasn't that Hollow you're talking about Vengarth's headless body? Or am I mixing my directions about?
On less jokey thoughts, the Duke might be Tark having lost his memory and forgotten that he was the Master who made them monsters? Although thats a scorpion, not a spider.
The Hollow I'm talking about is in the room between Vengarth and Freya. He drops three items when you kill him, one of which is a +1 ring of dark resist.
Though they do add enemies on NG+ runs, so maybe you fight the duke in NG+7 or something. The sword's description seems to imply he's more then a Hollow, which I don't think would be "far beyond" human.
Though they do add enemies on NG+ runs, so maybe you fight the duke in NG+7 or something. The sword's description seems to imply he's more then a Hollow, which I don't think would be "far beyond" human.
You can simulate the changes with Bonfire Ascetics to get it early though. Like using two at Majula in order to get Moon Butterfly gear in NG even though it's NG++ only.
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