[Dark Souls II] A Dagger in Every Liver!

[Riddle78]

Dark Souls II! A great game,in my opinion. If you disagree,that's your business,but that isn't the subject of discussion,here. Instead,we're discussing the game's daggers. And,more specifically,which ones are best for belting out critical damage from backstabs,ripostes,and guard breaks.

Every build makes use of critical damage,in some way. And,depending on your build,different weapons will deal more damage than others on a critical hit. Strength builds will likely get more crit damage out of the Greatsword,while Dexterity builds will get more out of Ricard's Rapier. However,daggers have always had much higher critical multipliers,making them useful for such things,especially when upgraded.

Now,I've been using the normal Dagger for a while. At +5,and about fifteen dex,Merciless Roenna is killed INSTANTLY with a single riposte from this thing on NG. However,with the introduction of the Umbral Dagger in the Crown of the Iron King,its description seems to indicate it's meant for crits. With a dex build,would it outperform the Dagger,at the end of the line? No infusions,talking solely about backstabs,ripostes,and guard breaks,here. If I have to butter the enemy to death,there's a problem.

 

[Monk5127]

I'd say Shadow Dagger (Drops from the adds in Flexile NG+).

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

It depends on how you're planning on building your character. You have a really low dex right now, and if you want to keep your dex at 15 you won't even be able to use the Umbral dagger since it tales 20 dex. I'm also pretty sure that at low dex a +10 dagger will out damage a +5 umbral dagger, but the higher your dex is the better the umbral dagger will become. I'm not quite sure at what dex level the Umbral dagger will out damage the dagger though, but I believe it would be somewhere around level 35 (my math might be way off on that), so if you're not planning on getting your dex past 35 then there's no reason to switch to Umbral dagger.

 

[gigastar]

Just skip the Umbral dagger.

Terrible base damage and it doesnt even share the highest crit multiplier.

Good scaling? Yes. But as far as i could be bothered to go you need extraordinarily high dex to get this thing to outdamage the standard dagger.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Actually, a question I wanted to ask a lot of time, how strong are dagger in the Dark Souls series? how much damage do they cause for big bosses? I tried once to play as an assassin and I remember being incredibly underpowered.

Daggers are very good in PvP and ok in PvE, but they're only worth using against enemies that can be parried and back-stabbed, so they only really work well against human sized enemies. Anytime you're fighting something that can't be back-stabbed a dagger becomes almost useless, and since I can't think of a single boss that you can backstab, yeah, daggers aren't good against them.

That's not to say that you can't use a dagger all the way through. All weapons are viable in dark souls and dark souls 2, but you're going to have to work damn hard for a lot of the bosses if you're going to fight them with a dagger.

edit: Actually I know that you can parry the Pursuer, but I can't remember if you can actually riposte against him, so maybe the dagger would work against him, but I doubt it.

 

[MetalShadowChaos]

Pursuer can be parried, but not riposted.

Personally, the only dagger based build I have is power stancing Flamestone daggers. Dagger Power Stance moveset with the length of a sword short for each dagger. Pretty badarse.

 

[JagermanXcell]

Personally the dagger I should see more of is the Bandit's Knife. Not only does it make you look cool (fashion>stats) but you have the added benefit of... you guessed it bleed! Now hold on... don't shut the door on me yet, I understand EVERYONES universal distaste for Dks2's bleed status effect, but have you seen the Bandit Knifes poise damage? It's almost straight sword like base damage? It's equally insane to the normal dagger's crit damage (equally insane crit damage not guaranteed, due to Dks2's wonky "balance")? Pop some blood serum on thing, with it's fast speed, has landed you easily one of the best all combat orientated daggers in the game, for any PVE and PVP situation! Tired of dealing with FromSoft's "balanced" drop rate system when you're trying to get your hands on the only STR scaling dagger? Want something with a little more variety than your average joe Dagger?

Bandit's Knife, or uninstall your game.

 

[Riddle78]

Personally the dagger I should see more of is the Bandit's Knife. Not only does it make you look cool (fashion>stats) but you have the added benefit of... you guessed it bleed! Now hold on... don't shut the door on me yet, I understand EVERYONES universal distaste for Dks2's bleed status effect, but have you seen the Bandit Knifes poise damage? It's almost straight sword like base damage? It's equally insane to the normal dagger's crit damage (equally insane crit damage not guaranteed, due to Dks2's wonky "balance")? Pop some blood serum on thing, with it's fast speed, has landed you easily one of the best all combat orientated daggers in the game, for any PVE and PVP situation! Tired of dealing with FromSoft's "balanced" drop rate system when you're trying to get your hands on the only STR scaling dagger? Want something with a little more variety than your average joe Dagger?

Bandit's Knife, or uninstall your game.

I actually did some primary research on THAT particular front. Unupgraded riposted with both,on Alonne Knights. The Bandit's Knife half-kills them. The Dagger kills them outright. 40 dex for all twenty tests. Ten tests per blade. I effectively tested every dagger I could get.

To everyone making suggestions: Bear in mind I'm asking from an exclusively CRITICALS and DEXTERITY BUILD standpoint,WITHOUT infusing the dagger. I'd rather not get Mundane,as it's more trouble than it's worth. You need,like,99 in every stat to get the most out of it. By that point,I might as well be using a Curved Dragon Greatsword in full Havel's,lightrolling a kilometer every tumble.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

To everyone making suggestions: Bear in mind I'm asking from an exclusively CRITICALS and DEXTERITY BUILD standpoint,WITHOUT infusing the dagger. I'd rather not get Mundane,as it's more trouble than it's worth. You need,like,99 in every stat to get the most out of it. By that point,I might as well be using a Curved Dragon Greatsword in full Havel's,lightrolling a kilometer every tumble.

You don't need 99 in each stat for mundane to be useful. At 20 in each stat you get a very balanced class and the mundane dagger will kill pretty much everyone with a single backstab.

 

[Pheo1386]

I've used the mannequin knife before and the critical on that was pretty good, but I'll be honest I'm more of a dual-straight sword fan

 

[garjian]

-snip-

For DEX, Dagger. Umbral Dagger.
For STR, Shadow Dagger.

I've not tested Umbral Dagger thoroughly, but it certainly backstabs a little harder than Mytha's (which are the daggers I use on my dual-dagger character), but I think Dagger is still better.

Outside of criticals, because everyone wears Jester's anyway, I believe Mytha's to be the best dagger. It does little less damage than a Dagger, and it does little less poison than a Poison Dagger, but it does both at the same time.
The dagger class are a whole struggles against high defense or at least it used to... I've been using Mytha's since long before armour was patched, and back then, with the old Dagger, my damage could range between roughly 300 and 12. 12! Without poison to back them up, chipping away at that would've been impossible, and they stunlock and apply poison so easily it felt silly not to use it.

All that said though, I've never used a buffed and infused dagger, so what do I know.

That's not to say that you can't use a dagger all the way through. All weapons are viable in dark souls and dark souls 2, but you're going to have to work damn hard for a lot of the bosses if you're going to fight them with a dagger.

I'm having no trouble with bosses and I'm using a dagger that's weaker than Dagger. NG+3 on that guy atm.
What makes it good in PvE in my opinion is that you're always safe, as they cost so little stamina and each swing recovers quickly, and you can sneak cheeky hits in and still roll away where no other weapon can.

Edit: I actually just did a couple of tests.
Mytha's actually does more poison damage than a Poison Dagger with Rat Crest and Sanctum Gauntlets. It gets a higher bonus as it's not an infusion.
Also, Mytha's only does a little less than Dagger with it's backstabs. 1100 compared to 1200 against the Lion Warriors, not a huge difference.
Umbral Dagger hit for 1500.

So Umbral Dagger does do more critical damage than Dagger after all.

 

[Riddle78]

-snip-

Snippity.

I see. So the Umbral Dagger is the go-to crit weapon? And to think,my normal Dagger damn near instantly kills people on a Guard Break. The Umbral Dagger's gonna eviscerate 'em! Thanks for doing those tests,Gar. Now I need to get me one on my dex character. Question answered.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Edit: I actually just did a couple of tests.
Mytha's actually does more poison damage than a Poison Dagger with Rat Crest and Sanctum Gauntlets. It gets a higher bonus as it's not an infusion.
Also, Mytha's only does a little less than Dagger with it's backstabs. 1100 compared to 1200 against the Lion Warriors, not a huge difference.
Umbral Dagger hit for 1500.

So Umbral Dagger does do more critical damage than Dagger after all.

What dex level were your tests at?

 

[Riddle78]

[I'd rather not get Mundane,as it's more trouble than it's worth. You need,like,99 in every stat to get the most out of it.

Pfft! That's just laughably false.

Scaling at 10 (yes, 10) I could get backstab hits of 1100dmg to 1200dmg with a Mundane Dagger.
As a deprived class, that means all you need to be is a measly sl 36 to get god tier crit damage.
It soft caps at 20 (around sl 140).

The Mundane Dagger is so good, I got accused of hacking when I was tearing people up in low level PvP in the Bellfry.
You asked which is the best dagger for crit damage. The best answer is the Mundane Dagger.

But don't take my word for it - I only rolled that exact build.

Builds I played:
"Pure Physical" Bastard Sword + Sea Bow (no magic)
This was my first run. I also never used an effigy (so half-health at all times), no summons (human and NPC), offline (no messages/ hints), no points in Vigor. I am a Souls veteran since Demon's Souls and this was to provide a challenge. If I can play solo, pure physical and half-health - then anything else is easier.

"Pure magic" Hexer (access to all top tier hexes; who also used a lot of lightning before the 1.08 patch)
Easily the best PvE build I rolled. The Hexes did well against invaders and the lightning crushed all computer opposition. Was getting 2000dmg+ out of my lightning and saw 4000dmg - 5000dmg from Lifedrain patch.


Mundane
Excellent for PvP. Really fools people who don't take your weak looking weapons seriously until they get hit. Backstabs were OHKO for the most part. Add the "Stone Ring" and the Mundane Broken Straight Sword, to really mess with your opponent.

Magic Knight
Complete shit. Don't bother with this under-powered dud.

Dark Uchigatana + Hexer (Dark Orbs, Dark Hail, Dark Fog, Dark Weapon)
Covenant of Champions and easily the best Pvp build that I played. Hunted BP (Red) Invaders for Awestones. Rarely lost. Would troll the bellbros by hanging out in the Bellfry and killing the invaders for shits and giggles - even 2 on 1.
At one point, I hadn't lost a PvP battle in 3 days of mostly PvP battles.

I also said,twice,without infusion,and for dex builds. Sadly,you didn't read. RTFOP. And I did my research on Mundane. To get the most out of it,you DO need 99 across the board.

 

[garjian]

What dex level were your tests at?

I should've mentioned. 50.
I'm also wearing Flynn's and Blades+2.
Also, these were both maximum upgrade... 10 and 5, Dagger and Umbral.

I'm led to believe most stop at 40, but it doubt that makes up for the 300 difference on it's own... Umbral Dagger will still be better, and given how this game and it's Soul Memory work, those 10 points don't matter anyway.

Also, for your Umbral Dagger - note: You can't infuse it and it has the weakest regular attack amongst all daggers.
Even if the latter is not too important, due to the nature of daggers (but I hope you have another weapon for Jesters), not being able to infuse it at all is limiting, probably crippling. Infusion is very important in DS2.

If you say so. I've found Sacred Oath and a buff on a non-infused weapon, alongside Ring of Blades, to give the highest damage boost, as well as not being as vulnerable to GMB. Not even counting Flynn's.

Particularly with a dagger, you get a lot more from the full effect of the raw physical boosts of Sacred Oath, RoB, and Flynn's than you get from the % boosts that buffs give you.
It's +150 vs. +50x1.3, and x1.3 means a lot less when it only effects the dark half of a Dark Dagger, which had low attack anyway even before being split by the infusion... and you lose your scaling on top of that.