Dating norms need to change

[ramboondiea]

Ya, that's why I am always bringing hard liquor to the first date; it really does smooth things a lot.

people need to listen to this guy right here, nothing smooths over awkwardness then some Dutch courage. also carrying a hipflask just adds to the look ha.

ot. gotta agree with you on a few points, although i am really old fashioned myself, i insist on paying and try to be a perfect gentleman. also hate the argument that a man should make the first move, i dont know anyone who would be put of by a forward women, hell infact most of the guys i know prefer it

 

[gazumped]

Interestingly, in the traditional model, the girl calls the shots for this 'courting' phase that you're describing, then the men call the shots once you have a full blown relationship. Girls tend to disappear from their friendship groups and follow their boyfriends to see the guy's friends, for instance. I guess in the old model of 'The husband is the head of the household' the idea was that he had to show her that he respected her during courting to earn the right to command her respect. Perhaps.

Anyway, I agree with the OP (perhaps with the exception of the badly worded creepy bit but enough people have pointed out that that was... uh... badly worded). It hurts both sides, as well, girls are forever pining over guys and going "Why won't he ask me oooutttt" and you say "Well, why don't you ask HIM out?" "WHAT? I don't want to look DESPERATE." And so they never get the guy because he had absolutely no idea she was interested.

It's the 21st century, girls and guys! ~_~

 

[DoctorObviously]

How often? Never: girls (my generation) are egotistical, pompous, self-fulfilled bitches that wouldn't know the obvious unless it would hit them. With a chair. On a truck.

 

[Altorin]

so much angsty rape in this thread that it makes me want to die.

 

[loomis]

To put in my own thoughts it seems that a lot of girls want a guy to be more agressive about making a move, but if a girl doesen't like them they can all too easily turn around and say they're being a predator and it's sexual harassment. It just gives me mixed messages about girls that say they want to be treated like a lady when really if the right guy comes along they don't care what he does.

Hope no one is offended by that. Just my own opinion.

 

[lord.jeff]

If a girl has yet to pay for just herself by the third date that just leeching, and I'm done with that girl. As for the rest it's because the guys what to make the first move, so to keep it a mutual decision the women gets to choose.

 

[Mischa87]

First off, as many have already stated, what you're saying OP is creepy... Really creepy... You're trying to turn dating into rape...

Now, I'm a transwoman, so I've seen this from both sides of it, out of the 2 cismen (3 if you count the one guy who I dated and ended up being raped by) 1 transman, 2 ciswomen, and 2 transwomen I've dated, I was always the person to ask them out, to make the first moves (With consent, or... you know, implied consent... in the form of hungry eyes... well, ravenous eyes...mew) And I've ALWAYS split the bill unless I bought something more expensive, it just seems like a HUMAN/RESPECTFUL thing to do, regardless of gender.

I think the problem a lot of people are having in relationships like this, is that for one, you're trying too hard. I'll let pansexual pop star Mika help me here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6md5RSnVUuo&ob=av2e

And another, is communication, past my first few relationships, I've only been in D/s relationships, and they've all worked more or less, and require VERY good communication to work, like, I cannot stress how important communication is in that sort of relationship. Of course, even in a vanilla relationship, it is still crucial, and if you honestly can't ask for consent, then you really need to either work on your communication skills, or... you know, just lock yourself up right now, because you're very likely to intentionally/accidentally commit rape... (Accidental rape being having sex/being intimate with someone without concrete consent, not a "I uhhh, I guess so") Personally, I won't do a thing before what I would call "enthusiastic consent" (Which can also be a good way to work into foreplay, it tends to be more than just a little enticing *grin*)

Really people, if a fugly, bitter, misanthropic, transsexual with horrible self-image issues is able to communicate desires/needs in a constructive manner with her partners, why are so many people relatively normal people finding it so hard to communicate these things?

 

[Chrono212]

*As a weird side note, I know many lesbians and they seem to have the dating system down right. Maybe straight people should borrow some ideas from them?

What system is that?

OT: As I've never been on a date (ever) I really can't comment other than, in all the stuff I would do if such a situation were to arise, I wouldn't have the money to splash out 'showing off'.
Conversely, I think it's more fun and creative if you have a limited budget.

 

[similar.squirrel]

This date, although you've done all the hard work...she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.

what the actual fuck.
are you aware that you sound exactly like a rapist?

Hate to say it, but that was all kinds of creepy.

Women call the shots for evolutionary reasons, to an extent. Not going to go further into it, because talking about people like that is a bit sinister.

 

[PhoenixOnly]

I don't see anything wrong with the current style of dating unless you're just doing it with the intent for sex or with the desire for sex before marriage, if you don't follow that line of thought and go for the relationship, it really seems to work out a lot better from my experience.

Yeah I agree with this guy completely. You should date a women just to enjoy her company and do all the romantic stuff like flowers and long walks. Love is a slow process and women are delicate flowers who should be nurtured gently like a mulberry bush. Although its okay on a first date if you stick it in her ass in my opinion. Just no regular sex before marriage. Because God will smite you.

 

[Altorin]

Pretty much have to agree on the girl being in control. Yeah there is not much of a difference between having a girlfriend and getting a hooker. Really break it down for a minute and think about it. After spending money on all the dinners, movies, lunches, events she wants to go to, your paying for sex. Many women don't start paying for stuff till way later in the relationship. I mean at least with a hooker you just throw the money down and get what you want right out of the gate. Do get to have more sex with a girlfriend, your still shelling out money. How often do you spend money on your friends like that. Every once in awhile I will buy stuff for my friend, not all the time. Always laugh my ass off when women say it isn't true. Don't tell me for one second that your boyfriend doesn't spend money on you at least once a week.

There is no way I could put enough instances of the word "sad" in the statement "you are a sad human being" so I won't bother.

I've NEVER paid for sex, even in the way that you're describing. When I have a girlfriend, we do things we enjoy together. We go to movies. We go to eat. We buy and play games together. I'm not paying for sex. I'm.... doing things I love doing... with the person I love.

Even if I was dating, I'm more interested in knowing about the person I'm dating, rather then tallying up the monetary cost of our meal or whatever and then expecting repayment in sex. That's horrible, and you, and everyone else that have that viewpoint are the reason why all of these shitty relationship threads even exist.

 

[Crusader1089]

Hmm, I'm tasting a lot of bitterness.

I met my girlfriend because she overheard me complaining loudly about Spiderman: One More Day and came over to talk about it. Our first day was at my house to watch Star Wars.

Love doesn't have to happen the way Hollywood tells you - and rarely does.

 

[Jimmy Sylvers]

I am mainly referring to internet dating, but in a sense this can be applied to 'real life' dating too.

Now I'm going to make some sweeping generalisations in the next few paragraphs but I want everybody to know that there are of course exceptions, frequent exceptions to these generalisations, but these are just my own viewpoint and in my own experience.

So imagine you're a guy (or don't imagine if you actually are a guy) and wham, you're thrust into the crazy world of dating. Scary, isn't it? Trying to find a girl you like, attempting to talk to her, trying not to scare her off while all the while worrying whether it's going well or not.
Maybe it does, you get a second date. You're happy about this, yet this brings more problems.. you have to do something fun, something she'd like and most probably spend a hefty amount of money setting it all up.
This date, although you've done all the hard work...she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.

Sucks doesn't it?

There are many more dates and many different outcomes to the whole dating scene, yet there is one thing you very very rarely see or hear from it, and that's the opposite of what I just said.

How often does a girl make the first move?
How often does a girl ask a guy out on a date?
How often does a girl pay solely for the date?
How often does a guy get to decide whether a girl kisses him or not?


I've seen/heard/spoken to a large number of women who are all seeking 'the perfect guy' or 'mr right' or something along those lines but either they don't want to know when a nice guy turns up and he's not quite as model-esque as they'd hoped and he's just a regular guy, or women are just happy to wait around, for seemingly forever waiting for mr right to show, when of course he doesn't and generally have to settle for someone a little less, which can (but not always) end on a bad note.


As I stated at the beginning of this, these are just generalisations which have exceptions, but I'm sure many of you Escapists out there (both men and women) know what I am talking about.
We live in the 21st century, yet we still seem to be stuck in the 1950's when it comes to our dating attitudes.

*As a weird side note, I know many lesbians and they seem to have the dating system down right. Maybe straight people should borrow some ideas from them?

Really dude, it sounds like you want women to act like porn stars. Get off the net and meet real women, it is very unlikely that you will ever be invited to engage in sexual activity the moment you meet a girl.

I'm not sure if prostitution is legal where your from but if you want women to do what you tell them to you should pay licensed professionals (or get a time machine and travel to a time where women didn't have the right to say no, it really seems like you are the one with the 1950's attitudes....)

Women are people too they have the same insecurities as any man. I have never met a woman who is seriously looking for the Mr. right bullshit you see in rom-coms they just want another person who respects them.

As for paying for dates, women can split the bill but remember that it seems like you are the one trying to impress her not the other way around so paying for dates is a way of doing this in human society. If you were a satin bowerbird you could just woo women by showing them your rad collection of blue shit.

I really do hope that you aren't as creepy/sex offender as your post sounds....

 

[esperandote]

Because guys want it more that women.

Yeah, that waiting for the right guy and then dating good looking idiots is pretty stupid. I have been into at least two girls that rejected me and dumped me to be with a guy that cheated on them and left them pregnant when they could have been all nice and comfortable with me.

 

[Altorin]

If you were a satin bowerbird you could just woo women by showing them your rad collection of blue shit.

For some reason, that made me smile something huge. Thank you.

 

[isometry]

Men have it easy, since the conditions that make us attractive mates are more under our control than they are for women. Just stand up straight (which unconsciously signals that you have healthy core muscles, abdomen and pelvis, that are necessary for good sex), and develop a few talents that women can respect, which can be hobbies or professional skills. Do these things and women will throw themselves at you even if you have an ugly face and excessive body fat.

 

[PhoenixOnly]

If your not into the traditional girlfriend boyfriend thing but you still want to get your dick wet then buy hookers/go clubbing and get wasted with some chick. Its really that simple.

 

[Sovereignty]

I've been asked out by a few women. It never really scared me as much as it shocked me. Normally I'll pay for everything outright the first few dates because that's how I was brought up.

But I think OP is wrong to assume (or maybe got burned) that the woman has the control.

A first date, out of politeness you ask, "Where would you like to go." And then I'll treat the person I'm with.

But after that? You should go on dates that YOU would enjoy.

If you don't find the person attractive (physically or otherwise) Don't go out with them.

If you have to take the person you're pursuing places you don't want to go... Don't go out with them.



People are really skewed in this belief that it's so hard to find a mate.

There are billions of people. Keep looking. You're bound to find someone who'd enjoy the things you'd enjoy. (And maybe they'll split the tab with you too.)

 

[Electric Alpaca]

If you break conventions it works spades. For example, the first time a girl invites you inside, politely refuse and trot on - upper hand regained. When you progress into the house, still refuse advancements.

You wouldn't believe what a small 'sacrifice' can do - as it immediately places you in a league unlike anyone they've dated. I have no problem sharing this 'secret', as most men are obsessed with the finish line and lack the discipline I can easily exhibit. This is the reason why males don't dictate 'first times'; self control.

Typing it here seems like it's being harsh, but you obviously deliver it in a manner appropriate to the situation - and it isn't harsh when it's on the other foot.

That being said, some conventions I maintain.

Regarding paying for everything, I have no problem with this. I think it stems from the age of chivalry, and I certainly don't intend on stopping opening doors or walking on the outside of the pavement either.

The reason why women can't find their perfect guy as you deftly put it, is because so many guys are the same generic template to begin with.

No one does anything to stand out, so she will never she what a nice guy you are really. Plus, a girl likes to earn affection. If you already pander to her, or place her on a pedestal you're not going to get anywhere.

Women want an equal, that's the whole point of a relationship. Get it out of your head that there is gender politics in play. Conventions exist because no one breaks the mold.

I'd never consider myself a Lothario, just being a little different works - whilst maintaining the good trademarks of being a man. And remember, women should be 'shopping' for you as well - does wonders for your confidence when you realise that.

Snip

What an amazing post - genuinely.