Day of the Doctor thread SPOILERS!

[Pebkio]

Yeah, it was pretty good, I liked it... even though the obvious ending was obvious. And I'm not saying the happy ending crap, I mean the plan they came up with. I'm usually down on the new stuff, but I enjoyed myself, 8/10.

That said, there were several things that caused my eyes to roll back into my head so hard I saw my past lives. This was the 50th anniversary episode, I get that, fine, but it didn't make much sense for every Doctor before Hurt to show up in the time war. They wouldn't have known of it's existance, much less the space-time coordinates. But we can still chaulk that up to The Moment, I guess. Actually, what really bugged me was the last guest star.

There is no in-story reason for him to be there at the end. It was just pandering to mindless fanboyism of which I'd only seen before in the Star Wars Prequels. I mean, he was much older (obviously) but that means he's much older than he was WHEN HE DIED AND REGENERATED! Are we to believe that this is him between some of HIS episodes? Did he age 200 years and then revert? I know it's supposed to just be a show but it's Moffat doing Moffat things again and I'm not a fan of Moffat things.

Also, not a fan of how nothing was resolved. The time war was disppointingly portrayed under Moffat's direction (no surprises there) but I wasn't expecting much anyway because it was a closed event... done and gone. Now it's not. Rassilon is now still a problem and the Master can come back, interesting, but now a war-torn Gallifrey can come back and the war was weak sauce.

At least it wasn't as bad as "Extra extra, pointless event rendures moot the first 4 seasons and all those special episodes, read all about it!". So if you can take anything from this, it was that I liked this episode more than the setups of season 5.

 

[Pebkio]

They see me Moffatting.
They hating
Trollin and trying to catch me writing shitty.

You sir, have given me a giggle fit. Don't get me wrong, this is juvenile... but yeah, I'm even imagining them singing this version.

 

[Thaluikhain]

There is no in-story reason for him to be there at the end. It was just pandering to mindless fanboyism of which I'd only seen before in the Star Wars Prequels. I mean, he was much older (obviously) but that means he's much older than he was WHEN HE DIED AND REGENERATED! Are we to believe that this is him between some of HIS episodes? Did he age 200 years and then revert? I know it's supposed to just be a show but it's Moffat doing Moffat things again and I'm not a fan of Moffat things.

Actually, in one story, the 4th Doctor did age a few centuries and then revert.

Anyhoo, they sorta kinda explained it...a bit.

 

[Pebkio]

There is no in-story reason for him to be there at the end. It was just pandering to mindless fanboyism of which I'd only seen before in the Star Wars Prequels. I mean, he was much older (obviously) but that means he's much older than he was WHEN HE DIED AND REGENERATED! Are we to believe that this is him between some of HIS episodes? Did he age 200 years and then revert? I know it's supposed to just be a show but it's Moffat doing Moffat things again and I'm not a fan of Moffat things.

Actually, in one story, the 4th Doctor did age a few centuries and then revert.

Anyhoo, they sorta kinda explained it...a bit.

Oh snap, you're right. He did! But in the span of one episode and he didn't leave the pleasure planet... or even that building. He also DIDN'T GET FATTER! OOOH! Okay, that was mean...

 

[Sigmund Av Volsung]

snip

What if (and this is just a thought) the Time War is still Time locked, but Gallifrey was plucked out of it?
Is that a reasonable statement? Because I mean if thats the case then it falls in line with the likes of Davros from season 4 needing rescuing from the Lock, and races like the Gelth and Zygons losing their worlds to the Lock.

Also, Daleks escaping? That's really not a big deal at this point, off the top of my head I can think of AT LEAST 5 Dalek stories since 2005 that are either survivors of the Time War, or got through it somehow, or just pretend that it didn't happen.
All in all the Moment really only seemed to wipe out the Timelords, while pretty much leaving an ever growing stream of Daleks to pour out of it with only the Doctor to stop them.

Not a good trade off if you ask me, and I formed that opinion since AT LEAST September last year when that whole Dalek Asylum thing happened.

Nothing can escape a time lock: it's why Dr. Tennant had almost killed Rassilon in The End of Time.

In doing so, a lot of damage will happen.

A few quotes from the wiki:

The Dalek Emperor(finale of revived series 1)

"The Emperor's lone ship barely survived the Time War, falling through time in a heavily damaged state. This Emperor was an insane Dalek mutant floating in a transparent tank of liquid, topped by a giant-sized Dalek dome"

Metaltron(episode: Dalek, series 1)

"Before the end of the Time War, when the Doctor used the Moment to destroy Gallifrey, the Time Lords and the Daleks (TV: The End of Time), this Dalek fell through time and landed on the Ascension Islands circa 1962. Insane and screaming, it passed through several private collections in the 20th and 21st centuries. By 2012, it was in the possession of billionaire Henry van Statten, who kept it in the Vault. Having no other name for it, van Statten called it a "Metaltron". At least one of his staff was destroyed just by touching it. He instructed another of his staff, Simmons, to make it talk. Although tortured, all it did was scream"

The Cult of Skaro(series 2, Doomsday)

" During the Last Great Time War, they operated as a final strategic reserve rather than fighting, they escaped into the space between universes, along with what they called the Genesis Ark, a piece of Time Lord technology. Having left the universe, they were not caught in the destruction of the Dalek fleet"

Hell, Dalek Caan went insane and was nearly killed when he tried to save Davros by emergency temporal-shifting out of and into the time war.

They did not survive easily.

That kind of thing could happen to a multitude of planets, perhaps the universe itself could be damaged beyond repair; that is why the time lock is the ultimate weapon.

That's just everything from Russell T Davies' series, but Stephen Moffat was adamant in creating his own series, separate from his predecessor, the anniversary was the only time he acknowledged that Dr. Tennant even existed, so those Daleks might be a bit more contrived(Moffat's, that is)

And again, the time war was something that killed off everything to a degree: the Time Lords, losing their morality and sanity, the Daleks becoming more ruthless than ever, countless planets being destroyed, species wiped out in the blink of an eye.

It was a truly defining moment for the Doctor, hell, it would be defining for anyone: I am glad that at least that character arc is still present, but it is dimished somewhat with Matt Smith, as now he no longer has any guilt over it, which means we wont get any more episodes like The God Complex where we see how much of a destructive force the Doctor is, since now apparently he isn't anymore.

I'm no longer angry over the anniversary, I'm just bummed out :/

EDIT: I just realised something else; the Dr. Tennant used in the episode, has to be post-Waters of Mars (as it is between WoM and the End of Time that he met Good Queen Bess, and later upset her(the shakespeare episode)) so surely he would be even more fragile, and less likely to prevent the time lock, as he saw what had happened when he tried to interfere with a fixed point in time.

But then again, he may have been at his most arrogant, because he decided to interfere with a fixed moment in time ("The Time Lord Victorious") but it is quite interesting.

But if that is true, then why did Moffat not look into The End of Time?

 

[Plinglebob]

For those a bit grumpy about things in the 50th special, go cheer yourself up by watching The Five(ish) Doctors Reboot [http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03lv3mj/The_Five%28ish%29_Doctors_Reboot/]. Written and directed by Peter Davison, its about him and other Doctors trying to get roles in the 50th.

 

[Pebkio]

But if that is true, then why did Moffat not look into The End of Time?

Because he's Moffat doing Moffat things. Hell, he couldn't even be asked to look into his own episodes. Namely The Wedding of River Song and that bit where he said Liz the First is still waiting in a field to elope with him. It's like he's trying to be the rock star version of a Doctor Who writer... living in a fantasy world where he can write anything and it'll all be acceptable because "Time Travel, yo".

 

[NQJ]

Because the End of Time still happened. This was a very well written way to make sure that they can write for a new doctor, instead of just writing for various variations of 9th and forward.
You say it would be nice to see more episodes like The God Complex, except that's all the doctor has been since the restart of the show. An angry man trying to hold it back.

The 50th anniversary is a perfect spot for them to switch the angle on the doctor, and to do that they needed to ease on some of the baggage, mainly that of destroying Galifrey since it was the single most defining moment for this line of Doctors.
For all intents and purposes, everything happened as it was remembered since the restart, how the Doctor remembers it was shown to be controlled fully by the Moment. When the 11th says "this time around" he's wrong, there never was a "this time around." When he "destroyed" Galifrey it happened exactly that way. The destruction of Galifrey was a lateral time event instead of a liniar one. The Moment made him think he destroyed Galifrey so that in the future there would be a Doctor who had the solution so he didn't have to destroy Galifrey. The Moment then used this information to make sure that it didn't have to do what the Doctor had originally wanted it to do, which was destroying everything.

Now he has found out that what he remembered was wrong thus both him and the audience gets a fresh start. It also makes it possible for Peter Capaldi to be fully his own Doctor, like it was pre-restart.
Back then a new Doctor was a fully new personality. Up untill now the Doctor has been a mostly new personality, albeit still weighed down and defined heavily by the actions of a past Doctor. This time, we have a shot at getting a fully new Doctor who goes on fully new adventures and solves them fully in his own way.

 

[Sigmund Av Volsung]

But if that is true, then why did Moffat not look into The End of Time?

Because he's Moffat doing Moffat things. Hell, he couldn't even be asked to look into his own episodes. Namely The Wedding of River Song and that bit where he said Liz the First is still waiting in a field to elope with him. It's like he's trying to be the rock star version of a Doctor Who writer... living in a fantasy world where he can write anything and it'll all be acceptable because "Time Travel, yo".

:/

Hopefully Capaldi is graced with better writing.

Anyway, I think I am done evaluating the episode, at the end of the day, I did like the call-backs, it was nice to see Dr. Tennant again, so overall 6/10.

But Moffat should know that he's standing on thin ice right now.

 

[Pebkio]

:/

Hopefully Capaldi is graced with better writing.

Anyway, I think I am done evaluating the episode, at the end of the day, I did like the call-backs, it was nice to see Dr. Tennant again, so overall 6/10.

But Moffat should know that he's standing on thin ice right now.

Oh, he is not. Maybe to overanalyzing nerds like you (and me but shh!) but he got the viewership in America up and that's enough to keep him his job for seasons to come. That's the really sad and depressing thing, most of the people don't care. I can't help but keep all the facts in my head and I'm just going to have to live with 70 billions blatant contradictions.

Or stop watching Doctor Who, that's always a possi... oh who am I kidding?

 

[Sigmund Av Volsung]

:/

Hopefully Capaldi is graced with better writing.

Anyway, I think I am done evaluating the episode, at the end of the day, I did like the call-backs, it was nice to see Dr. Tennant again, so overall 6/10.

But Moffat should know that he's standing on thin ice right now.

Oh, he is not. Maybe to overanalyzing nerds like you (and me but shh!) but he got the viewership in America up and that's enough to keep him his job for seasons to come. That's the really sad and depressing thing, most of the people don't care. I can't help but keep all the facts in my head and I'm just going to have to live with 70 billions blatant contradictions.

Or stop watching Doctor Who, that's always a possi... oh who am I kidding?

That last bit is true: I can try to convince myself that everything with Moffat is just a fever dream that Matt Smith had when he was regenerating, but I will still watch the series, albeit grumpier than usual.

Moments like these is when I feel like Comic Book Guy.

 

[Tono Makt]

I want to kill Stephen Moffat after watching it.

Not only did he piss on the existing lore, he also pissed on Russell T Davies by rendering the entirety of the revived series pointless: all of that character development, what made Tennant's Doctor so memorable has been pissed away.

Not to mention that he clearly forgot that the Time Lords went mad in the last few days of the War, and that the Doctor time-locked, not killed both races because both were a threat to the universe(seriously, watch Tennant's last episode, The End of Time, I think it's called): Daleks wanting to exterminate everything and the Time Lords wanting to destroy the universe and become beings of "pure consciousness".

In not locking the War, the Doctor allowed not only the time lords to exist, but all the horrors of the war to exist too.

FUCK YOU STEPHEN MOFFAT.

The only things I liked were the callbacks to the old series, but with everything else, I was forcing myself to watch, the fact that all the three Doctors all spoke like Matt Smith and had his personality, the fact that Elizabeth was still Sally Sparrow/River Song/Amy Pond/Clara Oswald, or rather, any main female character that Stephen Moffat has ever written and will write.

To reiterate, FUCK YOU STEPHEN MOFFAT.

Going to agree in part with this; I'm a bit leery of Gallifrey/the Time Lords surviving the war. I rather liked the idea that the Time Lords lost their way and needed to be put down just as much as the Daleks did - it's part of what brought me into Doctor Who as a full fan instead of a "Oh, that's interesting. But there's a hockey game on too, so I'll catch it on reruns.".

I took it to be a comment on the way our modern governments are working against our best interests, taken to an extreme. There are terrible dangers out there (terrorism) which we need to be protected from. But our governments have overreacted to this threat (NSA spying on everyone, Airport security insanity, invasion of Iraq and continued involvement in Afghanistan, etc.) to the point where they are becoming more dangerous to us than the terrible dangers they are protecting us from. To the point where it's hard to tell which is more dangerous, the terrorists or our own governments. If we let it go on, if we do "nothing" to stop it, eventually the only option we will have will be to destroy both sides ... complete with all the collateral damage that entails. Maybe that's not how it was intended, naturally, but that's a big part of how I interpreted it and caught my full attention.

I'm still going to watch going forward, of course - this episode didn't destroy my new love for Doctor Who or even really damage it, but I am wary about where they're going with this Gallifrey storyline. If they decide that they're going to save the ordinary Gallifreyans (who, I believe, AREN'T Time Lords but are just ordinary people.) while letting the Time Lords be swallowed into oblivion for the crimes they committed during the Time War, I'll be a pretty happy fan. It would sort of be like punishing Blair, Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld for their actions in Iraq and Afghanistan while not punishing the entire population of Britain and the USA for simply being British like Blair and American like Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld. We'll see in the upcoming season(s) if that's the case or not.


re: Matt Smith vs David Tennant

Matt Smith by a bow tie. Tennant is great, but there's something smarmy about his Doctor that always rubbed me the wrong way. An arrogance that didn't seem to be justified. Maybe that was intentional - there are two episodes that stand out to be where his arrogance was powerfully punished (the one where he "saves" the first people on Mars and the one where he's trapped on a ship with a bunch of freaking out normal humans and a dangerous alien that's taking their form) which are my favourites among his run because he was so soundly punched in the gut, which is what I wanted to do to him on a number of occasions. I've never had that same feeling from Matt Smith's Doctor.

 

[NQJ]

Even if the Time Lords losing their way is an allegory to governments out of control, the answer is still to rehabilitate them instead of wiping them out. Violence only begets more violence, as it has been shown on Doctor Who.
Whenever the Doctor has used extreme violence, it always comes back to bite him in the ass.

 

[Albino Boo]

:/

Hopefully Capaldi is graced with better writing.

Anyway, I think I am done evaluating the episode, at the end of the day, I did like the call-backs, it was nice to see Dr. Tennant again, so overall 6/10.

But Moffat should know that he's standing on thin ice right now.

Oh, he is not. Maybe to overanalyzing nerds like you (and me but shh!) but he got the viewership in America up and that's enough to keep him his job for seasons to come. That's the really sad and depressing thing, most of the people don't care. I can't help but keep all the facts in my head and I'm just going to have to live with 70 billions blatant contradictions.

Or stop watching Doctor Who, that's always a possi... oh who am I kidding?

That last bit is true: I can try to convince myself that everything with Moffat is just a fever dream that Matt Smith had when he was regenerating, but I will still watch the series, albeit grumpier than usual.

Moments like these is when I feel like Comic Book Guy.

You really should consider stopping watching it. The show is never going to be how you expect it to be. What Moffat has done is perfectly normal for the way that Dr Who is run. Its not now or ever has been a show that gives a damn about the lore. After 50 years, do you really think they are going to change the formula to please a non key demographic for the show on its home channel. For 50 years they have just made it up as they went along and getting angry about it is not going to stop them. You have two choices stop watching or stop caring about the lore.

 

[Pebkio]

You really should consider stopping watching it. The show is never going to be how you expect it to be. What Moffat has done is perfectly normal for the way that Dr Who is run. Its not now or ever has been a show that gives a damn about the lore. After 50 years, do you really think they are going to change the formula to please a non key demographic for the show on its home channel. For 50 years they have just made it up as they went along and getting angry about it is not going to stop them. You have two choices stop watching or stop caring about the lore.

Yeah, I'm going to stop you right there and assume that you're trying to tell US that classic Doctor Who didn't follow any of it's own lore because someone somewhere said it didn't. Unless you can site me events of ignored Lore outside of Moffat's run you will be henceforth known as "Albino the Parrot".

"Doctor Who never followed lore! Doctor Who never followed lore!"
Why do you say that, Albino?
"It was written in a blog!"

---

Obviously I'm assuming here... maybe you've been watching the classics since you were a kid and maybe you're not jumping on a bandwagon that appeared shortly after a crack in the universe erased four previous seasons. I doubt it, but maybe...

 

[ick99]

There's probably one thing I had issues with, the whole saving Gallifrey but its ok the timeline still works out because copout. Not because I'm a big fanatic of the lore since I'm only a casual viewer who hasn't latched onto it obsessively (not yet, give me some time to go through the new series and the older ones) so my main issue was that it kind of devalued the traumatic ptsd-survivors guilt the Doctor experiences throughout his entire life.

But if there's something we've all learnt, it's that the doctor can do anything. The Universe is his *****.

 

[Jace1709]

How is it that the Doctor could spend his whole life, since his first life, doing the maths to time freeze Galifray before the war even began?

I don't know if anyone else has responded to this, so i'll give it a shot.

I imagine they used the same trick as they did when they were in the Tower. They went back and spoke to Hartnell's Doctor, and started the calculations in his TARDIS, and just like with the Screwdrivers, immediately Smith's TARDIS has the completed math solution to hide the planet due to it running for... i don't know, a millenium? i'm not sure how old Hartnell's Doctor was supposed to be.

 

[Sigmund Av Volsung]

:/

Hopefully Capaldi is graced with better writing.

Anyway, I think I am done evaluating the episode, at the end of the day, I did like the call-backs, it was nice to see Dr. Tennant again, so overall 6/10.

But Moffat should know that he's standing on thin ice right now.

Oh, he is not. Maybe to overanalyzing nerds like you (and me but shh!) but he got the viewership in America up and that's enough to keep him his job for seasons to come. That's the really sad and depressing thing, most of the people don't care. I can't help but keep all the facts in my head and I'm just going to have to live with 70 billions blatant contradictions.

Or stop watching Doctor Who, that's always a possi... oh who am I kidding?

That last bit is true: I can try to convince myself that everything with Moffat is just a fever dream that Matt Smith had when he was regenerating, but I will still watch the series, albeit grumpier than usual.

Moments like these is when I feel like Comic Book Guy.

You really should consider stopping watching it. The show is never going to be how you expect it to be. What Moffat has done is perfectly normal for the way that Dr Who is run. Its not now or ever has been a show that gives a damn about the lore. After 50 years, do you really think they are going to change the formula to please a non key demographic for the show on its home channel. For 50 years they have just made it up as they went along and getting angry about it is not going to stop them. You have two choices stop watching or stop caring about the lore.

I don't expect it to be the same all the time, what I want though is writing that doesn't only accomodate to new viewers, and writing that isn't just Sherlock v0.5.

I don't want them to go 100% true to the lore because that happens with comic books, and those are often a mess because of continuity.

But for God's sake just a tiny bit is enough, because the Time Lords turned evil and it was this huge thing not too long ago.

Especially the Anniversary episode, which was supposed to celebrate all of Doctor Who, not just Moffat's version of it: it was supposed to be a love letter to fans, and in some aspects it was, but in others it really wasn't.