DC Getting Their Act Together

[KazeAizen]

So I know this might start up a flame war of how wrong I am or some other internet related catastrophe but screw it. As I'm sure many if not all of you have heard Superman got a fancy new movie this past summer. Also just a year before that and wrapping up its first season just before the summer movie season started Arrow began airing on the CW here in the U.S. Arrow is a series based on the DC character Green Arrow, which if your my age and never read a comic, you remember him being one of the best things in the Justice League Unlimited TV show with his girlfriend probably being the 2nd best just behind Wonder Woman . Anyway DC is planning a Man of Steel 2 movie with Batman in it and the CW is working on two new TV shows that supposedly tie in with Arrow. These are The Flash who is also getting a movie in 2016 and Amazon a TV show focused around Wonder Woman's time on Themiscyra (I know I spelled that wrong). Essentially those three TV shows seem to be the base of what I've come to call the DC TV universe. A show called Gotham in a pre-Batman Gotham focusing on commissioner Gordon is in the works for Fox. Ok so yeah a lot of that is trivial stuff that I thought my fellow geeks might find interesting but it does loosely tie in to what I'm about to talk about.

Spoilers for both Arrow season 1 and Man of Steel follow. Sadly to talk about what I need to I have to spoil both.

Man of Steel while being a pretty decent box office success for Warner Bros. has had heaps or criticisms heaved on it by both film critics and fans alike. Often the reason sighting is its too dark and among fans the killing of Zod has them divided. Some have rolled with it, some have not. The reason being is that after 75 years (yes its been that long and DC turned the whole year into a party for him) Superman has a few core rules in place. He doesn't kill being THE big one. So when he killed Zod fans reacted in what seems to be a 50/50 split. Those that did roll with it understood that it was a new version of Superman and an origin story at that and thus understood the point of it. Those that didn't go with it did not see it that way. In an interview Zack Snyder (and I wish I could find the article) explained that he doesn't believe in these "meta rules" that apply to heroes like Superman and Batman. In other words even if Superman is a good guy he shouldn't be above killing just because that is how he is thought to operate even if it is a ground 0 rebuild. So yes Zach is implying that Superman killed Zod but now he has a legitimate reason to not want to kill people anymore in the narrative.

This brings me to Arrow now. Throughout the first season Oliver Queen mercilessly kills dozens of people. Goons, henchmen, corrupt businessmen and political figures. Now he didn't kill all of them. Only some of the "big fish" met there end at his arrow. Still he was called a killer by the cops, lawyers, his ex-girlfriend and just about everyone in the series. In the season finale when a machine that causes Earthquakes is activated it ends up killing his best friend who was also privy to The Hood's (show's current in universe name) identity by that point. At the beginning of season 2 we find that this has weighed heavily on him and that his ex, Laurel Lance, still views the Hood as a cold blooded killer which makes him no better then the criminals he brings down. So he then adopts non lethal tactics to take down the corrupt and he only injures, not kills, anymore.Now from what I gathered people had a problem with this version of Arrow because yet again this was a hero, who was not known for putting people down, just firing arrows into people's hearts willy nilly. Now though he is evolving beyond that killer.

(spoilers end)

Now from all this it appears that while DC has seemed to switch places with Marvel so that they are the ones doing the dark stuff DC is putting a conscious effort into shaping its heros. Season one now titled "Year One" I believe is the rise of Arrow, his origins, and his crack at the hero biz. Man of Steel was the origin of Superman and his first encounter with the hero biz as well. If DC really is on point with this then while these first products are questionable to long time fans the subsequent entries seem to be trying to get the heroes to a more iconic status. In other words DC isn't going the "fun" route that Marvel is going but it does seem to be on track with its reworkings of the characters. Giving them their origins and motivations for what they will do later. I'm of the belief that a subsequent entry into stories can elevate previous ones if the previous ones might not have been that great. i.e. Star Wars: The Clone Wars. So if DC plays their cards right Man of Steel 2 and Arrow season 2 can elevate their previous iterations and those can be viewed solely as the origin of the character with the later entries dealing with their new found hero status. So yes I don't think DC is doing anything wrong by going the dark route and if what has been shown is to be believed they aren't as brain dead as everyone seems to think they are. Of course they could botch it and I'll be totally wrong in which case........That Justice League War movie sure looks good doesn't it?

 

[Thaluikhain]

Eh, I gave up on Arrow midway through. I'd hardly not call it evidence of getting their act together.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I'm gonna be honest, out of all the things you mentioned, the only thing that I have even a slight interest in is the Gotham TV show on Fox that centers on Gordon.

You can't get me hyped about anything they put on the CW, because that's basically a network dedicated to angsty teen romance, and even if Arrow hasn't been that exact thing, the writing in it hasn't been exactly stellar, and there's still way too much melodrama (because if they want to interest teen girls, there has to be pointless drama).

So no, I don't exactly see them as "getting their act together."

 

[Remus]

DC seems to be following Marvel's lead in how it promotes new material. It tried the light and comic-bookish route with Green Lantern which did not go all that well, so is now going darker with its properties. Conversely, Marvel's "dark period" - Blade, original X-Men with the black leather uniforms, Daredevil, was them emulating the Batman movies that quickly went from dark to psychedelic just as soon as Tim Burton left. When Marvel finally felt it had a foothold in the movie market they started releasing films that were far more faithful to the source material, whether it be FOX offerings with the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, and X-Men First Class, or Marvel's own Avengersverse. DC now has to do the same - they need to build a loyal audience then kick in the universe building. They can't skip steps and go for the straight comic-to-film adaptations without a built in audience, hence why Nolan's name was all over Man of Steel even though he had very little to do with the film's production.

 

[TekMoney]

We'll see if this is actually them getting their act together. How many DC Comics tv show or movie projects have been announced and haven't happened? Off the top of my head... Preacher at HBO, Fables on ABC, that planned Green Arrow movie Supermax, several Justice League movies, Joss Whedon's Wonder Woman...

I'd love for these to all happen. But until the shows actually go into production this doesn't mean anything.

 

[GiantRaven]

I don't know about getting their act together. Apart from a few comics, they're a complete mess right now, in my eyes.

 

[CommanderL]

I disagree Dc has been going down hill man of steel was bad and they are rushing into the second way

I don't know about getting their act together. Apart from a few comics, they're a complete mess right now, in my eyes.

I agree They have no idea on how they want their movie verse to be just chucking charcters into it arrow is the only live action show thing they have that is decent oh and the animation department is alright

 

[ellers07]

I'd have to agree with you. I like the route DC has been going and I appreciate that the tone and style are different than Marvel's cinematic universe. I quite enjoyed Man of Steel and I'm very interested to see where they go with him.

As for Arrow, I had avoided it for a long time because it was on the CW and I assumed that could only mean bad things. Then I saw it was on Netflix and figured I'd at least see what it was like. Surprisingly enough, I really enjoyed it. Of course, there are some times when the writing is questionable and it can get a little campy (especially the first few episodes) but overall it's a well done series. I've been impressed with their inclusion of DC characters and especially with their character development. There does seem to be sense of watching someone become a hero in both Arrow and Man of Steel, and while everyone may not enjoy that sort of story, I think it works well. I haven't watched any of season 2 yet, but from what you describe I'm excited to see where the story goes.

I think DC has a lot of potential. Green Lantern was certainly awful, but it seems to have been a good learning experience anyway (though a very expensive one). I look forward to future movies and tv shows. Even if I'm in a minority.

 

[CommanderL]

I disagree Dc has been going down hill man of steel was bad and they are rushing into the second way

I wouldn't call it Bad just really flawed but for the reasons? I agree, they do seem to be rushing things and if the rumours are true cramming too much into Superman Batman.

They really dropped the ball with Young Justice (the comics and cartoon).

Cancelling it was a huge mistake But overall all the dc animated stuff has been top stuff I think they need to takea step back and work out a plan on what they want to do

 

[somonels]

Wut? DC is not about movies/television! DC's bread and butter, comics, are still a raging shitstorm that only lower further expectations.

http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/ir/lag/comic/41227-top-11-dcnu-mistakes

 

[Silberescher]

DC's live-action TV properties annoy me because they seem afraid to be about superheroes. First Superman was an ineffectual kid in a Matrix-style coat named "The Blur" and now Green Arrow is a serial killer named "The Hood". If you're going to pander to me by introducing fanboy-favorite characters like Darkseid and Black Canary (and Clark and Ollie, for that matter), then making them essentially unrelated to their comic-book namesakes, I'm not going to get excited just because people with their names are showing up.

While Marvel's track record with adaptations isn't much better overall, especially with earlier Fox/Sony films and in TV animation, they seem to have determined how to adapt source material without simultaneously cringing at it and making it even cheesier.

DC either has to show their new material, or stick to the tired and outdated 90s universe. Its trying to do both, and they even try to crawl back to the 1980s the dark knight returns like people call back to Reagan.

If they brought out the new material, and did actual world building with the interconnected world DC is known for, people might for it. Marvel is too light, and DC could definitely dill the dark niche.

Personally, I think DC isn't trying to progress beyond the 90s, they're trying to regress back to it. Redesigning major heroes with the creative visions of Bloodstrike-era Image creators like Jim Lee and Rob Liefeld? Making those redesigned characters darker and edgier and more kewl and violent at the expense of depth (see: the Joker as a slasher movie villain who cut his own face off and sewed it back on to make an oblique point about Batman's mask being the real face)? Releasing issues with speculator-baiting variant covers that get increasingly more gimmicky, from the die-cut Death In The Family covers to the 3D Villains Month covers to the fifty-two different variants JLA #1 had? Writers leaving at a hurried pace for other companies, often citing ridiculous editorial control and mandates like "Kill John Stewart" and "Batwoman can't ever marry"? Hiring Bob Harras, who oversaw the Clone Saga, as editor-in-chief?

When the tie-in comic for a Mortal Kombat game fits in perfectly with the rest of your line in terms of tone, aesthetic, and storytelling quality, you have a problem.

Look at Justice League #1, the flagship first issue of the Nu52. The tone-setting introduction to the reboot as a whole. In this, the first superhero story of DC's new age, Batman and Green Lantern, who now have finicky little lines on their suits and awkward collars now, bicker and frown at each other while chasing a single Parademon, which escapes because Batman and Green Lantern were too busy bickering. Then Superman appears, with busy lines and a Nehru collar to match, and Geoff Johns decides that the very first thing this Superman should do is punch everyone for no good reason. That's so 90s I can taste Fruitopia.

(Marvel is on the same path, incidentally, with its foil covers, retailer-incentive variants that encourage over-ordering issues to inflate sales numbers, and incredibly decompressed storytelling becoming the norm, but I digress.)

 

[jetriot]

Not sure about your entire analysis but I do really enjoy The Arrow, despite many shaky parts in the first season. It has really shaped up and come into its own. Also many of the animated movies and cartoons in recent years have been great.

 

[Kyrian007]

I really think DC (just as far as their live action goes) should just hold off. What they have out right now (just Arrow and MoS) CAN'T compete with the Disney/Marvel properties. Not saying they should STOP but really they need to throw out movies they can save cash on and make some money while "testing the waters." Give lesser characters to other directing/production teams and see who can make a quality product while getting some of the "lesser" JL members established (who knows maybe some unknown director makes a FANTASTIC Dr. Fate and that kicks off huge new interest.) And wait on your bigs (Supes, Bats, WW, GL, Flash) until the Marvel live action U to crank out a few duds. With Marvel not "owning" half of their properties anyway their current level isn't sustainable forever. But most importantly they need to distance themselves from 1: The excellent Nolan Batman movies which need to stand by themselves, and 2: the lukewarm Man of Steel (I didn't mind the "grimdark" that others hated, but the 146 minutes of shaky cam caused me to hate MoS.) Yes, it means you have to re-boot Batman and Superman again but that can't be helped.

Not that what I would like them to do matters, big corporate holdings like DC/WB can't really look at the "long term."

 

[TekMoney]

We'll see if this is actually them getting their act together. How many DC Comics tv show or movie projects have been announced and haven't happened? Off the top of my head... Preacher at HBO, Fables on ABC, that planned Green Arrow movie Supermax, several Justice League movies, Joss Whedon's Wonder Woman...

I'd love for these to all happen. But until the shows actually go into production this doesn't mean anything.

One phrase:

Culture shock.

People think of DC in its 90s stage. And only on kids TV.

DC cannot show its new material. It must pull its punches now. It can't make an inter twinned world like Marvel because everything is so different audiences won't be able to adapt.

- Harley Quinn left joker as soon as he died (he actually didn't) and is getting her brains fucked out by deadshot. She's now a mutant like joker, and her real personality is now locked away in her own brain. Unable to get out.

- Justice League went missing in October. So villains went wild and shit got dark quick.

- Joker had his face shot off, and now he's more dark than anything DC has ever done ever before. He even knows Batman's identity now. None of this is mentioned anywhere. Because that is a drastic change from what people know.

DC either has to show their new material, or stick to the tired and outdated 90s universe. Its trying to do both, and they even try to crawl back to the 1980s the dark knight returns like people call back to Reagan.

If they brought out the new material, and did actual world building with the interconnected world DC is known for, people might for go it. Marvel is too light compared to what DC has, and DC could definitely fill the dark niche.

All of the shows suffer from a time warp. It goes between the 90s caricature and the new age character. Both of which are now polar opposites. It needs to put in some focus on what the hell they want to do with its "mainstream" sector and its focus.

Because there is nothing wrong with the new stuff, its their fear of alienation and lack of commitment that makes DC play second fiddle to marvel in the mainstream view. Even though their new source material could blow Marvel away rather easily. If they brought out their big guns, they would actually have a shot.

I don't really know what that has to do with my post. But assuming it does I'll point out that all of the projects I mentioned happened before this new reboot and major changes. And it would have had no effect on a Fables or Preacher show anyways.

Also, when Marvel started their cinematic universe, half the heroes were fugitives on the run from the government.

 

[Rossco64]

Eh, I gave up on Arrow midway through. I'd hardly not call it evidence of getting their act together.

By any chance was that within the first six episodes? If so I know what you mean, but I would recommend watching past episode six because it does really get quite good.

 

[Gizmo1990]

I have been watching Arrow and it is not bad. My problem with it is that I just cannot shake the feeling that they wanted to do a show about Batman but were not allowed. One of the first bad guys (who has become a recuring bad guy) is Deadshot, they just introduced the Laegue of assasin's and keep mentioning Ra's al Ghul by name and there is a guy who has a mask that looks alot like Scarecrow and he was using something that looks like it could be venom.

I don't know what Green Arrows rogue gallery is like but I would be more interested in the show if they didn't keep stealing Batmans bad guys. If they use too many it will only make people even more disapointed when Batman dosen't make a trip to Star (no ling!) city and show him how it is done.

That being said I am very excited to see what they will do with the Flash as I would kill a hobo if it got me a good Flash tv show/movie.

 

[KazeAizen]

I have been watching Arrow and it is not bad. My problem with it is that I just cannot shake the feeling that they wanted to do a show about Batman but were not allowed. One of the first bad guys (who has become a recuring bad guy) is Deadshot, they just introduced the Laegue of assasin's and keep mentioning Ra's al Ghul by name and there is a guy who has a mask that looks alot like Scarecrow and he was using something that looks like it could be venom.

I don't know what Green Arrows rogue gallery is like but I would be more interested in the show if they didn't keep stealing Batmans bad guys. If they use too many it will only make people even more disapointed when Batman dosen't make a trip to Star (no ling!) city and show him how it is done.

That being said I am very excited to see what they will do with the Flash as I would kill a hobo if it got me a good Flash tv show/movie.

The guy in the mask I think is actually Brother Blood as that is his last name and he seems to have the persona of a cult leader right now. Now that is pretty cool as beyond the comics his only real exposure is the Teen Titans version which was actually pretty cool. As for GA's rogues I don't know them. I just know the Black Archer is actually a real one and he seems to be the only one they've used that hasn't had strong ties to Batman. The Flash TV series is actually set to be in this universe. They've said about 3 or so episodes of season 2 will have him in it and the finale will be a lead in to the pilot episode of the Flash TV series. So if nothing else at least DC is making a TV verse. If it crosses over with Gotham and Amazon then I think I could possibly be a more interesting experiment then Marvel's movie verse.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Eh, I gave up on Arrow midway through. I'd hardly not call it evidence of getting their act together.

By any chance was that within the first six episodes? If so I know what you mean, but I would recommend watching past episode six because it does really get quite good.

Nah, I watched a few more than that, it didn't seem to change. Main character is insufferably arrogant, support characters spend all their time whining about being rich, flashbacks.