Dear Bioware Fans, at least you got a good game.

[Daymo]

All this rage has made me think about Command and Conquer 4. That game was complete and utter ass, didn't do with its ending what the creators said they would do(explain Kane's origin) and completly changed the way the game was played for the last one in the story. Do you know what the C&C fans did, they didn't buy the game, they let it sink like a stone, the only reason I even brought it was because of a 75% off steam sale.

The fans realised EA is allowed to screw up the ending and the game if they wanted to, but that they didn't have to take it. They didn't demand EA release a whole new ending that explained what happened after Kane's asecsion in minute detail, they just said fuck it and left, letting EA see that they had run an ip into the ground effectivly. So this leaves me wondering, why can't Mass Effect fans do the same thing and just leave it, or even admit that the game was at least as good as the first two up untill the end?

 

[Savagezion]

All this rage has made me think about Command and Conquer 4. That game was complete and utter ass, didn't do with its ending what the creators said they would do(explain Kane's origin) and completly changed the way the game was played for the last one in the story. Do you know what the C&C fans did, they didn't buy the game, they let it sink like a stone, the only reason I even brought it was because of a 75% off steam sale.

The fans realised EA is allowed to screw up the ending and the game if they wanted to, but that they didn't have to take it. They didn't demand EA release a whole new ending that explained what happened after Kane's asecsion in minute detail, they just said fuck it and left, letting EA see that they had run an ip into the ground effectivly. So this leaves me wondering, why can't Mass Effect fans do the same thing and just leave it, or even admit that the game was at least as good as the first two up untill the end?

Who's to say which group is right and which group is wrong? Mass Effect fans got Bioware to admit they made a shitty game and are supposedly going to address the crappy ending. If they do address it, they will might end up getting what they wanted and what they paid for. The C&C group didn't. They essentially just had a sequel taken away from them. And C&C4 sold some copies to fans who held out hope and got burned on $50 for that loyalty. I give the Mass Effect movement full thumbs up. These are consumers who are fighting EA on destroying a product they enjoy.

C&C4 topped sales charts.
(-) Command & Conquer 4: Tiberian Twilight (Electronic Arts)
(-) Dragon Age: Origins - Awakenings (Electronic Arts)
(1) Battlefield: Bad Company 2 (Electronic Arts)
(3) Football Manager 2010 (Sega)
(2) Warhammer 40,000: Dawn Of War II - Chaos (THQ)
(4) Napoleon: Total War (Sega)
(-) Metro 2033 (THQ)
(5) The Sims 3 (Electronic Arts)
(13) Left 4 Dead 2 (Electronic Arts)
(9) The Sims 3: World Adventures (Electronic Arts)
I doubt this showed EA they "ran an IP into the ground effectively". I would say C&C fans made a good effort but allowed EA to get away with it to move on and destroy another franchise. Bioware fans have made a stand publicly. We have been bashed by everyone for it too. Some people aren't OK with saying "Yeah but it's EA, 'What can we do?' they're the devil" Bioware fans said "I'll show you what we can do. Make 'em fix the damn thing they broke." I am honestly a little proud of my fellow gamers/consumers that have either been a part of or at least supported the movement.
They have conviction, which is more than I can say for many gamers/consumers out there who just turn a blind eye and/or bawk at those who do stand up to these foul practices of preying on brand loyalty of beloved franchises for a fast buck instead of securing financial stability with quality titles. Those gamers/consumers will ***** about it but they won't do anything. It appears they will also ***** about anyone actually trying to do something about it. You truly can't please some people.

EDIT: BTW, the end undermines the entire draw to the game. There are better shooters out there. The series was once in my top 3 favorite series. It is now well below that. Maybe top 20. Definitely, top 30. The whole "gimmick" of choice is crap now. All this game is now is a shooter. A shooter with a lot of dialogue you can navigate that means nothing. Just give me a shooter that is a shooter and don't bog me down with love interests or other stuff. The story is OK until the end deflates the thing like a nonsensical whoopy-cushion.

 

[Dandark]

You got a point there. I got into the series with C&C3 and it's expansion but thought the 4th game looked terribad. So I just didn't buy it, I was dissapointed and cursed EA but didn't buy it. I did the same with ME3, I didn't buy it.
Of course I wasn't that big a fan of the Mass Effect series, so I suppose those who were are more dissapointed or angry than I am. I'd say let them do what they want, they are angry about ME3, the only ones making as big a deal as them about it are the ones complaining about them being "entitled" or "whiny".

 

[TheCaptain]

or even admit that the game was at least as good as the first two up untill the end?

This is exactly what at least some of us do; admittedly, the people resorting to namecalling, ranting and foulmouthing others on both sides (including, sadly, a lot of game critics, too) are more effective at making themselves heard than those arguing quietly and reasonably. Which is why I can get behind the "Retake Mass Effect" charity drive and that hilarious cupcake undertaking, because those get attention within the boundaries of socially acceptable behaviour.

Circling back to your original question: I freely admit that Mass Effect 3 was one of the best games I've played. Ever. It's really just the final few minutes of the game that disappoint the hell outta me. Didn't keep me from two playthroughs and starting a new Shepard in ME1 after that.

But, as has been pointed out, endings are important. I think it was Yahtzee who once even proposed that game developers finish the beginning and end of a game before everything else.

Bioware has always welcomed feedback from their fans - as long as it's presented in a civilised manner - and one of their people has even called the players "co-writers" of the series, thus placing an emphasis on the player base in the creative process. And frankly, this is a direction I like. If that makes my chosen medium of entertainment "less artsy", I can live with that. If that's even as much of a problem as so many people make it out to be, which I don't think.

For now, the internet is a good place to talk about it (especially since none of my real-life friends have finished the game yet), and the fact that new threads about almost the same topic pop up every day means probably that's exactly what people want for now. I could respect that, even if I weren't one of those people; there are so many threads I don't read because I don't care for their contents at all.

And now it looks like the concerns players had will actually be addressed, which will (best-case scenario) lead to all concerned being better off:

- players have their needs for better ending satisfied
- the work as a whole (and the people involved) gain a higher appreciation from their fans
- publisher gets a few more bucks for dlc

So if it goes down that way, not shutting up was definately worth it.

 

[Amaror]

No ones saying that the game wasn't good. That however makes it kind of worse even.
If the whole game was shit, you could have just said "Ok, it's shit!"
But it's not. It's an awesome game, that drops everthing that is good about it in the last 5 minutes and that's the frustrating thing. You just have to think "Why did this happen? How did they managed to fuck up that bad in just the last 5 minutes, when they were creating pure awesomeness for about 30 hours"

 

[Neonsilver]

There is a difference between C&C4 and Mass Effect. At least from my point of view.
They couldn't hide the changes to the gameplay in C&C4 before the game was released. I liked the 3. game and thought about buying the 4., until I saw the first videos from the game. I wasn't interested in the story, so I can't say if it would have dissapointed me.

The gameplay of ME3 is mostly like the 2. or an improved version of the 2. and that could be seen in videos, but before release there were not much information about the ending.

 

[DEAD34345]

I disagree with this line of thinking, it sounds to me that the C&C fanbase effectively lost. They just said it was shit and didn't buy it, and they didn't get the great game they wanted. Mass Effect 3 fans are bombarding Bioware with complaints about the ending, and now it seems they're actually going to do something about it. What's wrong with that? They got what they wanted.

Also, everyone I've spoken to about it has said that 99% of the game is great, which just makes the ending even more disappointing. I myself completed the game yesterday, and I'd say only the last 5 minutes of the game were bad, but they were bad in such a specifically terrible way that they have made the rest of the game and the two previous games worse. I didn't even think that would be possible until I experienced it, but that's how I feel. Changing it would make me and other fans very happy, so why not?

Spoiler: Possible mild spoilers.

They essentially make every decision you made prior to that point irrelevant, ruining the whole player choice thing that drew me to the game in the first place. A sudden cut to black ending would have been better than this, if only because my enjoyment of the rest of the series would be unaffected.

 

[Shoggoth2588]

I know nothing about C&C but you know what game I do know about? Star Wars the Force Unleashed. It wasn't perfect by any means but it was good for what it was. It answered questions never asked about the origin of the Rebel Alliance and had a great ending...which was completely undermined by the fact that it got a direct sequel. A bad sequel but that would have been somewhat forgivable, if not expected, if Force Unleashed 2 wasn't a direct sequel. As I mentioned in another thread, Final Fantasy XIII was like the mirror-mirror version of Mass Effect 3 (ie: made out of solidified snot and, puss until the end) and yet there wasn't nearly this great an out cry although to be fair, every Final Fantasy has been 'the worst one ever' since about 8 or 9.

Remember Mass Effect 2? It had a pretty crappy ending too but the DLC they released for it expanded upon it until the final word was pretty damned good. Mass Effect had a good ending but there was still DLC that expanded upon the ending somewhat. This has happened twice before everyone, please don't forget that.

Knights of the Old Republic 2 was also released unfinished (to go back to Star Wars). There was a ton of content that was left out or, left unfinished and some pretty big glitches which could have been encountered. It took years, didn't it, for the fan base to fix the game Obsidian wouldn't.

 

[pirateninj4]

In 5 years you'll all have forgotten about this and just like now, No one will care.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Em did we really need a thread to say essentially what has been said in all of the others? Also I really doubt EA cared that their IP sunk they more care about their image in general and Bioware's image as that will make more than 1 IP ever could. It is the brand recognition of gaming. So yes I actually think this more damaging to EA than not buying the pile of crap that was CC4.

 

[Bvenged]

Because, as a C&C fan who left 4 to run into the ground, ME is an IP worth saving. C&C had run its decade-long life and it was fun, and 3 was a good time to end it, so 4 was treading water anyway. ME3 was different because since 1 we had known it was the end. C&C4 would have been treated differntly if there wasn't generals, RE, Renegade, all the expansions and if they had said C&C4 would be the last of a more-continuous story after they made C&C1, Westwood/EA would've had the same rage as Bioware/EA got.

 

[CleverCover]

Another one? Are you bitter about something because the endings were confirmed and I thought we could move on. I'm sorry you're upset that no one cared enough about C and C to raise holy hell to make a developer fix something broken, but people did here.

Maybe now developers will be more careful with what they release.

 

[Cyfu]

I think all the crap surrounding ME3 is going to be bad in the long run. What do you think the douche-bag companies will do when they can sell an ending?

if they really want to make more money they can just make a bad ending and sell another ending that is better than the original. that could mean that they could intentionally make a bad ending just to make some extra cash by selling the "real" ending.

 

[Goofguy]

For a series that values freedom of choice and divergent decisions, the ending to ME3 did an injustice to its fans. As I haven't really been in to the C&C series since Red Alert 2, I can't attest to just how lame this must have felt to the fans.

In comparing the two, I see very passionate fans of ME3 who feel more invested in their series and frankly, Bioware should take it to heart.

 

[Francis Budden-Hinds]

While I'm sure that many people now won't buy say, DLC, or have returned the game I think this thread's OP kinda misses the point. The fact is that despite it's manifold flaws we like mass effect. We'd like it to have a good ending. Thus seeking to get a good ending seems far more effective than you know, killing bioware with a massive consumer boycott.

Not that I personally will ever buy one of their products again if this is the kind of story ending they'll give me. If they fix it though, we're fine (providing they fix it for free).

 

[MiloP]

Tell you what, if one of the Retake members can pen a feasible ending that references every decision in the game in a meaningful way, then I will admit that "the ending doesn't reflect your choices" is a valid argument.

Also, ME1: Ending features choice of two options, similar cutscenes.
ME2: Ending features choice of two options, similar cutscenes.
ME3: Ending features choice of three options, similar cutscenes.

The last decision of the game has always been that, I don't know why people are complaining now.

OT: Was I the only one that thought C+C4 was good? I mean, I'm not a big RTS player, so maybe I'm just not knowledgeable enough. But it was fun for what it was.

 

[Murlin]

I haven't even gotten to the ending (and staying away from the spoilers on the internet is quite a task) But I'm among the people who feel really conflicted about fans forcing a studio to remake part of a game. I get where it's all coming from, I absolutely love Mass Effect and the third game is good so far, and I dread the impending "shitty ending". Besides the second and third instalment smell a LOT of EA's subtle whispers (Sex scene? No! That'll just make parents go apeshit again, just have them cuddle or something! We want that broad audience!)
But I wonder whose ending it's going to be? Bioware's or the fans'? And where these actions will lead us? What if fan uproar changing things becomes a common occurrence even for things less "shitty"?
What if fans coerce George R.R. Martin into retconing a certain beheaded character into life again? I was upset that happened but in the end it does drive the story which didn't get worse (I believe)
Okay so that comparison doesn't work with ME3, since in the latter's case it was the conclusion and not one event that upset people, and seeing as it was the conclusion nothing was left in the game to amend it.
But it frightens me to think that these kind of things might happen again in the future, that IPs get changed because fans of the first hour didn't like it, and that it may eventually end up messing with the ability of creators to make something that is theirs and only theirs.

 

[Dandark]

Tell you what, if one of the Retake members can pen a feasible ending that references every decision in the game in a meaningful way, then I will admit that "the ending doesn't reflect your choices" is a valid argument.

Also, ME1: Ending features choice of two options, similar cutscenes.
ME2: Ending features choice of two options, similar cutscenes.
ME3: Ending features choice of three options, similar cutscenes.

The last decision of the game has always been that, I don't know why people are complaining now.

OT: Was I the only one that thought C+C4 was good? I mean, I'm not a big RTS player, so maybe I'm just not knowledgeable enough. But it was fun for what it was.

It was probably a decent RTS, however up untill then all of the C&C games had been about base building. One of their biggest strong point was the base building, I loved it on Tiberium wars. They completely took that out of this one and replaced it with mobile bases or something. It was just a really stupid idea that completely changed what C&C was about.
The reason people are angry is that rather than start a new IP or something to do this with, they tried to finish off the C&C story with it. I think.

I didn't like it because the gameplay looked like something I didn't like and the story looked retarded. I assume that's why others didn't like it but I don't know for sure.

 

[TheCaptain]

Also, ME1: Ending features choice of two options, similar cutscenes.
ME2: Ending features choice of two options, similar cutscenes.
ME3: Ending features choice of three options, similar cutscenes.

Well, with the first two parts they couldn't go into wildly different directions if they wanted to allow players to import their savegames into the next game.

Spoiler

Also, they had that kind of nonstandart game-over in which Shepard dies and Joker reports to the Illusive Man.

What I'm saying is, they needed to keep the endings similar so you'd end up with a starting point for the next game - which would then address all the choices you've made. This we won't get with ME3. It's like when they think a TV series will be renewed for a new season and then gets cancelled by the network on a season finale cliffhanger.

And no matter if you count it as multiple or just one ending, many still feel it just didn't fit the rest of the series in tone, quality and theme.

-EDIT-

But it frightens me to think that these kind of things might happen again in the future, that IPs get changed because fans of the first hour didn't like it, and that it may eventually end up messing with the ability of creators to make something that is theirs and only theirs.

I think the part where it's only theirs went out the window when they signed up to design and write a video game of that scale. I won't pretend I know much about the industry, but in a project where the money that goes into the creative process isn't the artist's own, he'll be giving up part of his independence to the people with the big wallets.