Dear UK. WTF are you doing ?

[DJjaffacake]

Seeing as I fear many in this thread cannot comprehend the reasons to fear the ever-growing reach of the government, and the judiciary by proxy let me provide the following link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-incrimination

The fifth amendment, the one regarding protection against self-incrimination is relevant for the following (derived FTA) "Historically, the legal protection against self-incrimination is directly related to the question of torture for extracting information and confessions."

The fifth exists precisely to prohibit torture and to also prevent the miscarriage of justice by compelling false confessions. OP even mentioned that this UK law criminalizing data encryption is very likely to give rise to miscarriage of justice as law enforcement could demand encryption keys to either totally unencrypted information, or encrypted information whose key the subject does not possess.

There's a reason the protections exist. I genuinely sympathize with those who lack such protections.

We do have the right to remain silent in the UK. It's been upheld by the ECHR.

 

[Aprilgold]

It's simple really, if you are doing illegal things, don't encrypt your drive else face the consequences

That's right, if someone steals my computer I totally want them to access all my saved info, my HIV status, security card number and bank account status because its totally their right to steal my shit then overtake my ID because of all the stuff on it.

OK that above point is quite silly but this defense is dumb as hell. EVERYBODY has something to hide, and what happens if it becomes illegal to hide things that could harm us? I'm not even talking about things that are already illegal, what if someone has a religion and lives in a country where their religion could get them jail-time or killed?

We all hide something because it is usually something private, being able to encrypt said data so that, in case someone steals our shit they also can't black-mail us over it.

EDIT: This above statement is on the statement that people don't have things to hide, less on the actual law that you just have to hand over encryption keys, which I find nothing wrong with.

__________________________________________

Everytime the US does something dumb someone usually says "Only in the US" well guess what UK, ONLY IN THE FUCKING UK!

 

[gunny1993]

WOW okay, that's a fucking joke. But don't be so smug Americans your senate just passed a bill that allows anyone who is suspected of being a terrorist to be held without trial or charge until peace time (It was on the daily show recently, can't remember which episode)

 

[Leg End]

OT - Meh, It's not as cool as the law about Welshmen and longbows.

Or the Scottish Law which allows the defendent to challenge the Queens' Champion to single combat.

OR the law that makes it illegal to die in the houses of parliament.

Or the 1515 archery law King's Pardon.

Or the whatever law involves Scots and castles and farmers and execution... something about Scot in a castle at night and a farmer... or something related to them being allowed to execute the Scot if it involves a British castle... or something. I forgot. :/

All I know is, my girlfriend laughed at it when she told me. If someone can remind me of what I am blabbering on about, please tell me. D:

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

source: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/23/section/53

"In proceedings against any person for an offence under this section, if it is shown that that person was in possession of a key to any protected information at any time before the time of the giving of the section 49 notice, that person shall be taken for the purposes of those proceedings to have continued to be in possession of that key at all subsequent times, unless it is shown that the key was not in his possession after the giving of the notice and before the time by which he was required to disclose it."

If you NEVER had it; you are safe.

If you lost it, removed it or had it deleted, you are safe - as long as it can be proven that you still have it.

The article is complete bull. For some reason people never even look at the src material.

Here's a problem with that. You've never had the key. The authority's think you do. How do you prove them wrong?

You don't have to. They have to prove you do have it.

(3) For the purposes of this section a person shall be taken to have shown that he was not in possession of a key to protected information at a particular time if?
(a)sufficient evidence of that fact is adduced to raise an issue with respect to it; and
(b)the contrary is not proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

Point 3b: For the purposes of this section a person shall be taken to have shown that he was not in possession of a key to protected information at a particular time if the contrary is not proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[FantomOmega]

It's simple really, if you are doing illegal things, don't encrypt your drive else face the consequences

But you encrypt it to PROTECT your files from bad people that try their best to steal YOUR data to use to do illegal stuff with! Are you telling me to just "bend over" and let the government who by the way are absolutely retarded when it comes to internet security "take over" my right to protect ANY data!? If the government having trouble with the loophole ware a convicted criminal has encrypted data (this whole thing seems related to that) then concentrate ONLY on convected criminals that have substantial evidence against them, not just go and suspect EVERYONE upfront!

Put all your eggs (data) in one basket (government servers keeping track of your data) and all someone will need to do is attack the basket and steal everything! (the reason why I don't particularly like Cloud services)

Leaving your front door unlocked when your not at home because the Law dictates that you will look "suspicious" if you lock our door and NOT leave the key in-front of it for all to see because you'd be suspected of hiding something illegal is broken logic

Remember hearing ex-employees of antivirus corporations exploiting weakness in the system for their own gain? You think that wont happen in the government too if they aren't already doing it for shits and giggles?

The next thing you know they'll be asking for your Windows/Web Account usernames and passwords, cause you OBVIOUSLY cant be trusted with your own personal "safety"

 

[Dogstile]

source: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/23/section/53

"In proceedings against any person for an offence under this section, if it is shown that that person was in possession of a key to any protected information at any time before the time of the giving of the section 49 notice, that person shall be taken for the purposes of those proceedings to have continued to be in possession of that key at all subsequent times, unless it is shown that the key was not in his possession after the giving of the notice and before the time by which he was required to disclose it."

If you NEVER had it; you are safe.

If you lost it, removed it or had it deleted, you are safe - as long as it can be proven that you still have it.

The article is complete bull. For some reason people never even look at the src material.

Here's a problem with that. You've never had the key. The authority's think you do. How do you prove them wrong?

You don't have to. They have to prove you do have it.

(3) For the purposes of this section a person shall be taken to have shown that he was not in possession of a key to protected information at a particular time if?
(a)sufficient evidence of that fact is adduced to raise an issue with respect to it; and
(b)the contrary is not proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

Point 3b: For the purposes of this section a person shall be taken to have shown that he was not in possession of a key to protected information at a particular time if the contrary is not proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

Ugh, I see your point, but the wording irks me. It seems far to... vague.

 

[Mr F.]

Bleh, here was me thinking it would be something about how the UK signed up to be a policed state for over a month, complete with the illegal conversion of civilian buildings into military installations. Or perhaps something about how we are selling off our entire state to the highest bidders, ridiculous tax cuts for the wealthy or the fact that the government is bitching about the heinous idea that the Lords should contain people who are elected and be downsized.

But not, its something about how we have no freedoms any more. I thought everyone knew this? Considering we are the most watched nation on earth (Going by security cameras per head) and civil liberties are a thing of the past (Pointing a camera at a police officer is an offence.)

Meh, I never really bother with any form of encryption. I genuinely have nothing to hide. On my computer or internet searches anyway.

Go find a political party that doesn't like this shit or head to a protest. Personally I would either point you to the Pirate Party or any of the generic useless armchair Marxists (Young Socialists, Workers Revolutionary Party, Socialist Party).

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

The UK - True land of the free. Apart from USA where freedom is an illusion.

Law is the law, regardless if you agree with it. Do nothing wrong and you have nothing to fear.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

It's funny that Americans think we're odd. We think you guys are plum crazy.
Arresting a mother at her daughter's 16th Birthday because teens were trying alcohol [http://northhills.patch.com/articles/ross-township-mom-faces-50k-in-fines-after-police-bust-daughter-s-sweet-16-party]
Having the highest prison population in the world [http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html?pagewanted=all] (1/4 of all prisoners in the world are in the US)
In the US you can be arrested simply for crossing the street.
And I'm not even going to link to the various school and college shootings that happen in the US, tragically cutting short young lives, but the US does nothing about allowing anyone and everyone to buy a gun.
How the US govmt. seized Megaupload servers in another country entirely just because corporations who pay their tax dollars asked them too.
WTF is up with pledging alleigance to a flag every damn morning?
Or how the US maintained Guantanamo Bay as a wonderful way to circumvent human rights and the Geneva Convention.

Find something more to make you bang your heads, I'll find you five.

OT - Meh, It's not as cool as the law about Welshmen and longbows.

That's actually nonsense you realise? If you shoot anyone, Welsh or otherwise with a longbow you'll be arrested for assault with a deadly weapon, or murder depending on whether they live or die.

Unlike the USA, laws in the UK aren't held sacred because they're on a several hundred year old document. It's called moving with the times baby.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

complete with the illegal conversion of civilian buildings into military installations.

If that's an Olympic thing, then i think you will be happy that a 747 doesnt crash into your family. End of the day, its the terrorist fault for flying a plane into your house. If that doesnt happen, all you have is a missile group on your house for a few weeks. Not going to affect you at all. But, for freedom, are you willing for the state to allow your family to die by terrorist attack? Should let them know and save the public tax money.

I agree our government sucks and some of our laws are also sucky. But some sacrifices have to be made, as long as they dont go to far.

OT: My capture was Bombs Away. Sigh.

 

[Someone Depressing]

Yeah, I'm ashamed to live here sometimes. Honestly. Useless royalty, useless laws, useless politics, useless citizens, useless education, useless employment, useless economy...

But, I'm not really the UK, I'm just one of the many million specs that occupy this shithole.

 

[DJjaffacake]

OT - Meh, It's not as cool as the law about Welshmen and longbows.

Or the Scottish Law which allows the defendent to challenge the Queens' Champion to single combat.

OR the law that makes it illegal to die in the houses of parliament.

Or the 1515 archery law King's Pardon.

Or the whatever law involves Scots and castles and farmers and execution... something about Scot in a castle at night and a farmer... or something related to them being allowed to execute the Scot if it involves a British castle... or something. I forgot. :/

All I know is, my girlfriend laughed at it when she told me. If someone can remind me of what I am blabbering on about, please tell me. D:

You can shoot a Scot with a longbow if you're stood on York's walls if they're on the outside, and it's after midnight. I think that's what you're getting at.

 

[DJjaffacake]

complete with the illegal conversion of civilian buildings into military installations.

If that's an Olympic thing, then i think you will be happy that a 747 doesnt crash into your family. End of the day, its the terrorist fault for flying a plane into your house. If that doesnt happen, all you have is a missile group on your house for a few weeks. Not going to affect you at all. But, for freedom, are you willing for the state to allow your family to die by terrorist attack? Should let them know and save the public tax money.

I agree our government sucks and some of our laws are also sucky. But some sacrifices have to be made, as long as they dont go to far.

OT: My capture was Bombs Away. Sigh.

I don't have a massive problem with that thing, but I have noticed a bit of a flaw in it.

Unless I've misunderstood, the missiles are intended to prevent terrorists from crashing a plane or planes into the stadium or city, right? But surely if they shoot it down, it's going to crash. In the city. Exactly as the terrorists intended.

 

[Call me Baz]

snip

Here's a problem with that. You've never had the key. The authority's think you do. How do you prove them wrong?

The burden of proof is on the prosecutors, innocent until proven guilty etc etc.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

You can shoot a Scot with a longbow if you're stood on York's walls if they're on the outside, and it's after midnight. I think that's what you're getting at.

No you can't, that is a fallacy. It is illegal to shoot anyone with a bow. Doing so will result in an arrest for GBH, attempted murder or murder.

 

[Lilani]

It's simple really, if you are doing illegal things, don't encrypt your drive else face the consequences

What if you own a small business and you want to protect your sensitive financial documents and personal data of your clients? What if you have a lot of sensitive documentation and information stored on your computer you don't want falling in the wrong hands? What if you just want to be extra safe with your personal information? This is like saying people shouldn't lock their doors if they don't want people breaking in to steal their valuables. Yes, why make them go through the effort of breaking in when you can just leave the door unlocked for them?

 

[Frozen Donkey Wheel2]

Am I the UK? Am I qualified to answer to the title question?

If so, my answer is, sitting here playing games, eating, watching youtube videos and constantly checking the steam summer sale for new amazing deals.

You see - I don't make the laws here.

Yeah, now you know how America feels. You see, I'm also qualified to speak on behalf of my entire country. Seriously, you know how many "WTF America" threads this place gets? Well, a hell of lot more then the UK does, that's for damn sure. And ours aren't even based on laws or actions taken by the government. Usually it's "Red Neck McGee, self-declared Crazy Hill Person, killed and ate a kitten. In other news, the US is now be packed with inbred cat-eaters. Discuss."

 

[ChildishLegacy]

Am I the UK? Am I qualified to answer to the title question?

If so, my answer is, sitting here playing games, eating, watching youtube videos and constantly checking the steam summer sale for new amazing deals.

You see - I don't make the laws here.

Yeah, now you know how America feels. You see, I'm also qualified to speak on behalf of my entire country. Seriously, you know how many "WTF America" threads this place gets? Well, a hell of lot more then the UK does, that's for damn sure. And ours aren't even based on laws or actions taken by the government. Usually it's "Red Neck McGee, self-declared Crazy Hill Person, killed and ate a kitten. In other news, the US is now be packed with inbred cat-eaters. Discuss."

You mean... you're not all called Red Neck McGee?
:O

 

[theultimateend]

V for vendetta anyone?
The U.K. seems to be getting there a bit at a time.

When a single person is convicted or suffers because of this stupid law (evidenced by a fantastical conspiricy website) ill start to believe you. Until civilians are killed in the streets people need to cut down on the hypoerbole. It makes everything you say impossible to take seriously.

Impossible is generally hyperbolic.

But that's just me being pedantic <.<.

This law is actually a good example of no-vote.

If someone puts into place a law like this they should be fired because there are only 2 possibilities for it existing.

Either they are malicious and shouldn't be in power.
Or they are ignorant and shouldn't be in power.

Laws are an incredibly dangerous and powerful thing and should be respected, anyone who puts a law into place without a very strong understanding of the outcome shouldn't be in a position to make laws.

Just my thoughts.

complete with the illegal conversion of civilian buildings into military installations.

If that's an Olympic thing, then i think you will be happy that a 747 doesnt crash into your family. End of the day, its the terrorist fault for flying a plane into your house. If that doesnt happen, all you have is a missile group on your house for a few weeks. Not going to affect you at all. But, for freedom, are you willing for the state to allow your family to die by terrorist attack? Should let them know and save the public tax money.

I agree our government sucks and some of our laws are also sucky. But some sacrifices have to be made, as long as they dont go to far.

OT: My capture was Bombs Away. Sigh.

87,000 flights per day. edit: I've seen as low as 28,537. So I'll account for that too.

4,380 days since 2000.

381,060,000 max or 124,992,060 min total flights in 12 years.

4 Planes were hijacked in the US between 2000 and 2012.

.000001%? max or .000003%? Min

I would think just about any response short of reinforcing the doors on 747's and being slightly more observant at airports is an overreach.

You are more likely to have your own furniture kill you (in either case) than a 747 fly into your house. Why isn't the government nailing down all your furniture?