Death to the Mana Bar!

[ZeroMachine]

"I don't know how to play a mage right and I suck at it, so I want them buffed to unfair levels."

Anyone else read that? Sorry, OP, but it honestly just sounds like you're not that good at being a mage.

You want unlimited god powers, go cheat in Oblivion or something. We like challenge in our games, and playing a mage presents a damn fun one if you know what you're doing.

I've always thought the mana bar should be replaced by a fatigue system. Like, the more spells you cast in a row, the tireder you'll get, and the weaker you'll spells will be. That would make more sense to me.

And yeah, I clicked here cause I thought you were talking about Yahtzee's bar. Good to see I wasn't the only one!

That's actually a pretty awesome idea... also, your avatar is fuckin' sick, if a little contradictory

What's contradictory about it? It clearly represents a multi-national company dedicated to preserving humanities existance, but instead of killing their enemies, they capture them for testing! All in the name of science! Pretty straight-forward!

That's not the Abstergo symbol... that's the Assassin symbol. The group that would be against the multi-national company...

The multi-national part was refering to Aperture. I can't remember if it specifically tells you they're multi-national, but judging by the size of the place in Portal 2, they probably are!

Hm, good point. Guess it's just that, the way I see it, Aperture and Cerberus seem to be a bit against what the Assassin's order stands for. Aperture would be helping Abstergo if anything.

Doesn't take away from the fact that the combination of logos looks awesome beyond all measure. Just my AC fanboy talking

 

[Bloodstain]

I receommend reading the Silmarillion.

Don't read the Silmarillion. Unless you're one of those people who likes to watch "The Making of . . ." segments and so forth.

It's not a "Making of", it's description of everything happening in Tolkien's universe, starting with the creation of the world and ending with the end of the War of the Ring.
It's difficult to read, but fascinating. Amazing what Tolkien invented.

 

[Weslebear]

Magicka did this pretty well, unlimited magic, great amount of variety in combos of elements for various spells as well as a decent list of set spells, you can even summon an infinite army of minions if you want, has got me and my friends through many a challenge arena. Yet it was still challenging and interesting.

 

[JMeganSnow]

So in short, my answer to the 'mana bar' is the existence of a 'stamina bar'. Drain that thing, and there are more consequences than a simple lack of spellcasting ability... and taking real wounds does more than just drain the red bar.

I think the main reason why a lot of this stuff isn't implemented in PnP games, in particular, is that it adds a HUGE amount of paperwork because ALL of this has to be tracked. There's NO reason not to implement it in video games, however, because the computer can easily track all of this stuff for you. However, most computer RPG's hearken back to their roots in Pen and Paper so they don't do it, either.

There's lots of room for different types of games that use different types of systems for all this sort of stuff, and making the mechanics interesting and varied might be one way to save your recycled elves-and-orcs epic fantasy from the slush bin.

 

[Alphakirby]

I thought this was going to be about Yahtzees bar in Australia, I am actually kind of disappointed as it would have made an interesting topic.

YOU TOO
So yeah,seeing as this thread is about an age old gaming mechanic I'll file it under...

GOOD DAY SIR!

 

[JMeganSnow]

I receommend reading the Silmarillion.

Don't read the Silmarillion. Unless you're one of those people who likes to watch "The Making of . . ." segments and so forth.

It's not a "Making of", it's description of everything happening in Tolkien's universe, starting with the creation of the world and ending with the end of the War of the Ring.
It's difficult to read, but fascinating. Amazing what Tolkien invented.

I know what it is. I read it. But it won't appeal to people who are looking for a great story. It is like reading the encyclopedia or the bible or watching a movie clip ABOUT a movie. Hence why it probably won't appeal to people who don't like that sort of thing.

Reading comprehension tip: just because someone says that something falls into a the same category as something else, does not mean they're claiming that something is IDENTICAL to that something else.

 

[Battenbergcake]

Megh still doesn't protect you from Rogues, i'd like to see you summon you skeleton army when your back resembles a wooden pin-cushion.

To be honest if you'd so bothered go routing for a game that fulfills your needs for unlimited magical power.

Speaking of wizardy, the best wizard game hands down for me was Lost Magic on the DS, criminally underated and over looked, a fun little rpg-rts styled with elements of occult symbol drawing and pokemon monster catching.
Serious, drawing the runes for your spells was fun as all hell and suprisingly deep.

 

[JoshGod]

Becaues otherwise the most powerful spell would be spammed, ruining any challenge taking away skill or thought, you might as well just have one long QTE.

 

[loc978]

So in short, my answer to the 'mana bar' is the existence of a 'stamina bar'. Drain that thing, and there are more consequences than a simple lack of spellcasting ability... and taking real wounds does more than just drain the red bar.

I think the main reason why a lot of this stuff isn't implemented in PnP games, in particular, is that it adds a HUGE amount of paperwork because ALL of this has to be tracked. There's NO reason not to implement it in video games, however, because the computer can easily track all of this stuff for you. However, most computer RPG's hearken back to their roots in Pen and Paper so they don't do it, either.

There's lots of room for different types of games that use different types of systems for all this sort of stuff, and making the mechanics interesting and varied might be one way to save your recycled elves-and-orcs epic fantasy from the slush bin.

Honestly, it's not that hard even in pen-and-paper games. The SWD20 wound system is still just numerical values. Wound points simply equal Con+feats(Which I've had to replace with class-specific bonuses), and losing wound points puts a stat penalty on you (which is healed when the wound points are). It's a little more complicated than HP, I admit, but it's not terribly difficult to track.
As for reasons not to implement it in video games... unfortunately video games have to be made with user-friendly appeal, playable by the lowest intelligences among us. Telling a player that they actually have more consequences than strawberry jam on the screen when they're hit seems to be taboo, these days.

 

[JMeganSnow]

Well if unlimited power and no recharge are your thing I'd look at Magicka, that game is mega fun with friends.

IIRC in Magicka, magic is the ONLY thing going. The whole concept of a mana bar only really has relevance in games where you have other options going on at the same time. I take it in Magicka the brute force application doesn't really accomplish much most of the time?

 

[Nightvalien]

I thought this was going to be about Yahtzees bar in Australia, I am actually kind of disappointed as it would have made an interesting topic.

I was kind of hoping for that, too. I'd kill to have one of those here in the States.

You could open one in the US just go to the mana bar site and checkout how to.

 

[JMeganSnow]

Honestly, it's not that hard even in pen-and-paper games. The SWD20 wound system is still just numerical values. Wound points simply equal Con+feats(Which I've had to replace with class-specific bonuses), and losing wound points puts a stat penalty on you (which is healed when the wound points are). It's a little more complicated than HP, I admit, but it's not terribly difficult to track.

My games tend to involve battles on a scale where it becomes difficult to track just plain hit points for all the stuff going on. (That and I like to keep fights moving instead of having every attack followed by a minute of everyone sitting there watching me scribble.) That, and I've seen all kinds of systems for this sort of thing, and they almost always end up with multiple layers of math involved. You start out saying things like "when you take x damage, you get y penalty", but then you start adding in items and abilities that affect x and y in different ways and at different times and maybe add a new z stat that does something else and it becomes a nightmare to manage.

As a GM, I've developed all kinds of workarounds for this situation, however, all of them basically amounting to ways in which I don't have to track stuff. Or, I just offload all the paperwork onto my players, which works fine. They have nothing else to do when it isn't their turn anyway.

 

[JMeganSnow]

Becaues otherwise the most powerful spell would be spammed, ruining any challenge taking away skill or thought, you might as well just have one long QTE.

That takes timing, though, which defeats the "no skill" aspect.

It might be amusing to make a free web game in which you just *run past stuff* and it explodes in all kinds of bizarre and interesting ways. I'll bet you could actually make a fun game out of that, too.

 

[Glaive_21842]

Rather than simply ripping the resource management out of a game that needs it, why not make a game where magic doesn't need to be balanced with resource management. Magicka is a great example of this! The magic is all you do, fun as hell, and you need every last drop if it to win.

 

[TheIronRuler]

The whole point of magic is unbalanced.
Magic is accessing abilities and objects that are out of your reach by using.... magic.
What's magic? Why isn't there a downside to it?
Therefore you have the nicely written yet poorly executed answer from BioWare in the shape of Demons possessing mages. Other examples may vary, but in order to allow magic to exist it must be a great burden for the user.
Example of such may be the animation series 'Fullmetal Alchemist' in which alchemy is a form of a developing science. With it you may create things and destroy but you have on limitation- the starting input must remain at the output, but the shape of it may vary. in such a case you may be able to fix a radio and turn existing trees into processed lumber (though I doubt one can make a profit off it), but not summon demons from hell or conjure a heavenly sword with a sarcastic talking blade.
I can say that magic brings a natural curse with it. Socially mages will be feared, not because they can transform into demons - but because they can do everything. Therefore they will be hunted down and executed, due to their extraordinary powers. A mage can serve a king but he can also vaporize that king as he pleases. That is a LOOPHOLE.
And in your perspective of magic, mages should have been obliterated at the dawn of history!
That's why you have a mana bar.

 

[zehydra]

Balance is king. Without balance the game world would be...well, unbalanced. You can't have unlimited magic, because it would be unbalanced.

BALANCE!

Plus, it's good enough just to have it recharge, like in Oblivion, or just have the abilities themselves recharge, like in Mass Effect.

actually you could have unlimited magic and still have balance, it would just have to be implemented differently, where there would be some other kind of limitation on the ultra-powerful spells.

 

[Gunjester]

I thought this was going to be about Yahtzees bar in Australia, I am actually kind of disappointed as it would have made an interesting topic.

That's funny me too xD

I don't agree by the way, as a long time RPG fan who thinks of mages as an already unbalanced "necessary evil" (Prefer Rogues or Warriors any day) I think mages should have more limitations, not less. Otherwise, that'd be the only class ever played. Besides, if the point of magic is to be unbalanced, it makes more sense to remove completely by the topic-posters logic...

 

[crudus]

I think you assume that magic is just something you can do with no effort. When you use magic you are bending space and time to fit your needs/wants which would wear you out. That is what the mana bar represents. It is just your endurance for casting spells.

 

[Saviordd1]

Its there for balance.

And if you read the WoW books they don't actually refer to any mana, just that casting spells exhausts mages, do your research next time