Debate on the state of Japanese education

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

After a talk with my friend, we ended up on the topic of the state of Japanese education

My friend argues that it's in a poor state and it seems that other sites comment on the same thing

However, I have no real exposure to it so i have little knowledge outside of possible false representation in anime. As such, I would like to hear what people know about the state of Japanese education, what issues it has and what can be done about it.

For the record, the issue we discussed were that it is far too focused on rote memorization and uncreative.

 

[Redryhno]

For the record, the issue we discussed were that it is far too focused on rote memorization and uncreative.

I honestly don't know a huge amount about their education system either, but this is pretty much exactly the same complaint about most first-world directed education these days.

 

[FalloutJack]

I cannot comment on the current state of it, because I do not live there, but I can speak on the standard and on what detracts from it.

Japan, as you may know, is rather intense on the success of the person reflecting on the family. The society is a rather pressured one, at least in terms of performance. The student, therefore, feels this in the form of needing to achieve some measure of success in grades or physical capability or both. If they do not, it is perceived as a failing which reflects badly on the family, a personal shame. In the US, the common response to this could be either angry words leveled at the student, the teacher, the board of education, or all of the above. In Japan, this will be less the case, except on the student. Or worse, nothing is said and the student can stew in their own self-recriminations.

I'm in America, and I get on my case sometimes over some failing, but I also let myself off easy because some things are forgiveable. What detracts from this is anyone for whom this standard has been too much and, for various reasons and in various ways, balks from it because it is too much. You could say that this might be a prevaling western influence, since other cultures just operate differently, but it isn't - to my knowledge - to such an extent to be harmful in a widespread way. I haven't heard about a Japanese education problem, and admittedly I talk to people who might bring that up. Maybe I'll go ask them.

 

[Sniper Team 4]

I'm going off of what I learned in college a few years ago, so it might be a bit dated, but here is my two cents.

Japanese school is, as you said OP, focused on memorization, facts, getting the job done. You don't learn to "think outside the box" so to speak, because you are not graded on that. Students are expected to fit in with society and contribute, not rock the boat and make waves. And Japan measures this by grades in school, and in turn students focus solely on the facts. Often, a Japanese student will be able to nail dates of historic events like it's nobody's business, but ask them why that event is important, and you'll get, "I don't know. I just know that this is the date that happened."
This is painfully true of world events. They learn about them, but they don't learn--or care really--about why the events are important. The reason behind this is that Japanese students often don't see themselves leaving Japan. Many of them have their entire school lives planned out by grade school, and they know what they need to know to get into their high school of choice and their college of choice, so why bother learning about things outside of Japan? It's kind of like the mindset of the student who raises his hand in math class and goes, "When am I ever going to use this?", only it's an entire nation.

So yeah, their school system is both really good--their students are pretty sharp when it comes to knowledge and such because it's hammered into them--probably not the best way to learn if you plan on going out into the world, or having a deeper understanding of the world.

 

[Asita]

For the record, the issue we discussed were that it is far too focused on rote memorization and uncreative.

And that's different from Stateside education...how exactly?

 

[Terminal Blue]

Japan's school system is kind of a paradox. To Western conservatives it has long been considered the pinnacle of what a school system should be. It tends to produce solid test results and undeniably high level of achievement in some subjects, particularly maths. At the root of this is an intense emphasis on competition and work ethic, which obviously appeals to conservatives.

The problem is that when you actually get down to it, students are being tested for the sake of being tested. The school system is not teaching them academic skills which they will be able to take forward, it's teaching them to test well in a way which is essentially self-validating. The relentless competitiveness of the exam cycle also causes huge problems in terms of wellbeing and mental health, which are made worse by the fact that Japan is a very collectivist society and bullying is basically tolerated in the interests of promoting conformity. It's not uncommon for kids to simply collapse and cut themselves off from society (a phenomenon called hikikomori). Since there is virtually no mental health system, they are basically left to recover on their own. Some don't. Japan's suicide rate has been improving for some time now, but the youth suicide rate remains extremely high.

Essentially, it's a system which looks great from the outside but is actually kind of horrific to go through and which fundamentally fails at teaching anything which can't be reduced to basic abstract rules. The good news is, it's a lot better nowadays than it used to be as the Japanese government has begun to recognise and address some of the problems.

 

[Marik2]

It can't be as bad as Murican education

 

[krystalphoenix]

I actually work in a Japanese school, so I'll try to share what I know.

Critical thinking while encouraged by teachers, doesn't help them on tests. While I remember lots of "talk about x related to you" in my foreign language exams even at a low level (aka the theme of family and writing some basic sentences) all questions are very guided to give a particular answer. I think this gives the impression of lack of depth to the students understanding.

Students often go to "cram school" after school for a few hours to help keep their grades up. This can be seen as a lack of ability by the actual schools to teach the students well but from where I stand, a lot of the schools time is making sure the kids are growing up as reasonably well rounded people. There are lots of lessons on ethics and racism and other things that I'm sure would have been cut in other countries. Lots of lessons are lost for school events such as Sports Festivals and Culture Festivals too. The teachers are like second parents to a lot of the students too. They'll make sure they see the school nurse, let them sleep if they know things aren't going well at home. They do more supporting that teaching sometimes. There is a saying I've heard before about the Japanese system. "Cram school teaches you what you need to pass an exam. School teaches you how to function in society."

And one more thing for now. Clubs.
99% of students will join a school club. Usually a sports based one, but if you're lucky the school will have some creative ones like art or music. Students go to club 4~6 times a week. Sometimes both before and after school. Skipping club is a no no, even for cram school. Which might be seen weird to the outside. But again, in clubs the students have the social pecking order and also teaches them how to teach others. Yup, students regularly have to teach other students the rules and such of their chosen sport. Teachers are too busy planning lessons/sorting out something else. But it's a good growing experience for the students.

The the Japanese school system as a whole, works well for test results. It has been engineered to give test results and the ideal Japanese person in society. Many teachers that I work with complain that they don't have the time to teach the why and how, only the rules.

 

[Catnip1024]

Well, isn't the major issue the uber-competitiveness of the various selection exams meaning that that becomes a be-all and end-all goal, rather than the actual learning? Hence things like cram schools.

If these criticisms mentioned at the top are from the Japanese, then I would argue it is just like any other country complaining about the education system - everywhere does it. The UK regularly has people complain that either A) The exams are getting easier, or B) the kids are getting stupider.

Personally, I think some aspects of the Japanese system would be good for the UK - the regular borderline compulsory club activities would help get kids into the swing of actually doing things, and probably deal with obesity levels, for instance.

 

[Bobular]

For the record, the issue we discussed were that it is far too focused on rote memorization and uncreative.

A Japanese guy I once spoke to said basically the same thing as this, but he was saying it as if it was a good thing. I don't know how universal this thinking is over there but the guy I knew believed that academics were not the place for creativity and if you wanted to do something creative you'd specialise in arts (If I'm remembering what he said properly he said that at some point in your school life you chose to specialise in either academic stuff like science and maths or you went for cultural things like music and Japanese).

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Japan's school system is kind of a paradox. To Western conservatives it has long been considered the pinnacle of what a school system should be. It tends to produce solid test results and undeniably high level of achievement in some subjects, particularly maths. At the root of this is an intense emphasis on competition and work ethic, which obviously appeals to conservatives.

The problem is that when you actually get down to it, students are being tested for the sake of being tested. The school system is not teaching them academic skills which they will be able to take forward, it's teaching them to test well in a way which is essentially self-validating. The relentless competitiveness of the exam cycle also causes huge problems in terms of wellbeing and mental health, which are made worse by the fact that Japan is a very collectivist society and bullying is basically tolerated in the interests of promoting conformity. It's not uncommon for kids to simply collapse and cut themselves off from society (a phenomenon called hikikomori). Since there is virtually no mental health system, they are basically left to recover on their own. Some don't. Japan's suicide rate has been improving for some time now, but the youth suicide rate remains extremely high.

Essentially, it's a system which looks great from the outside but is actually kind of horrific to go through and which fundamentally fails at teaching anything which can't be reduced to basic abstract rules. The good news is, it's a lot better nowadays than it used to be as the Japanese government has begun to recognise and address some of the problems.

Their health system, in general, is fucking atrocious. I gashed my hand and wrist open and was having trouble stopping the bleeding with one hand. They have "hospitals" that fucking close. *Close*.


Also yeah. They have a term in Japan; "Bash the bent nail in." The nature of their education system leads little in the way of lateral thought, and is strongly founded on rote learning. Increasing the amount of time needed for study and additional days of tutelage. And we know it produces test results, but it's not conducive to lateral spplication of education. I'd rather have creative students, not students who copy out of the textbook and call it 'learning' ...

Australian education system is.... well, it's good in comparison and leave it at that. Ised to be brilliant but those days are well and truly behind us. With the focus on non-permanent teachers, and ridiculous class sizes, and telling teachers to constantly think of new ways to shift the educational components to homework...

But it still works as a medium primarily because students have it drummed into them that they need to think outside the box. I chalk it up to Australian liberalism, pro-free market focus on spontaneity, creativity, and being self-interested captains of commerce. None of this namby pamby socialization towards shallow reflexivity of cultural norms. Every person can (and should try) to be an island. A shining island. A beautiful island. A popular island. But an island nonetheless.

We never grew out of the 80s.

Doesn't produce the same test results, but it does inculcate a predilection towards risk and opportunity. Hell, one of the first things they teach you in Year 7 was probability mathematics when I was a high school student. Japanese education system has 'benefits'. Tends to promote stoicism. I've seen their students deal with abuse that we would call the police to make a report about. Japanese bullying is something else, to the point where I know Australian adolescents would cry, whine, and whinge about until someone paid attention to them.

While I think it's good that society gets better (kinder, gentler, etc) as time goes on, but there is always going to be a premium on a stiff upper lip. That being said I'm pretty sure that stiff upper lip isn't worth losing our liberal values over. Frankly I'll take a nation of whingers over a nation with a lot more reasons to whinge about... and yet told to be silent.

Though in foresight... when you have a 17 year old publishing a report on an online Australian commentary newssite about the national shame of trying to find a quality macchiato in Canberra anf the horror of a good ol' fashioned fish and chips restaurant, a part of me does wonder whether we have it too good.

So anyways... stiff upper lip. There will be a premium on it in the coming decades. Heaven forbid if one of the precious darlings has to change a tyre and doesn't have imported soaps and rosewater scented toner to clean their hands.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

I actually work in a Japanese school, so I'll try to share what I know.

Critical thinking while encouraged by teachers, doesn't help them on tests. While I remember lots of "talk about x related to you" in my foreign language exams even at a low level (aka the theme of family and writing some basic sentences) all questions are very guided to give a particular answer. I think this gives the impression of lack of depth to the students understanding.

Students often go to "cram school" after school for a few hours to help keep their grades up. This can be seen as a lack of ability by the actual schools to teach the students well but from where I stand, a lot of the schools time is making sure the kids are growing up as reasonably well rounded people. There are lots of lessons on ethics and racism and other things that I'm sure would have been cut in other countries. Lots of lessons are lost for school events such as Sports Festivals and Culture Festivals too. The teachers are like second parents to a lot of the students too. They'll make sure they see the school nurse, let them sleep if they know things aren't going well at home. They do more supporting that teaching sometimes. There is a saying I've heard before about the Japanese system. "Cram school teaches you what you need to pass an exam. School teaches you how to function in society."

And one more thing for now. Clubs.
99% of students will join a school club. Usually a sports based one, but if you're lucky the school will have some creative ones like art or music. Students go to club 4~6 times a week. Sometimes both before and after school. Skipping club is a no no, even for cram school. Which might be seen weird to the outside. But again, in clubs the students have the social pecking order and also teaches them how to teach others. Yup, students regularly have to teach other students the rules and such of their chosen sport. Teachers are too busy planning lessons/sorting out something else. But it's a good growing experience for the students.

The the Japanese school system as a whole, works well for test results. It has been engineered to give test results and the ideal Japanese person in society. Many teachers that I work with complain that they don't have the time to teach the why and how, only the rules.

A part of me feels like the club pseudo-requirement and the idea of teaching ethics early is good

I'm still concerned about the overly stressful nature of exams and the overly strong pecking order leading to ijime. hopefully, society at large can find a balance or an ideal.

 

[Erttheking]

I think we can learn a lot from the culture, there seems to be a lot of emphasis about the ideas of people who are born with skills or wealth are inherently better or more successful and that only few can be "the best" and being good in just one thing does not matter. Naruto, Hero academy, Little Witch Academia. It's just a dark way of looking at the world and it is felt very strongly.

Also my boss said a pretty interesting thing about China but it can also apply to Japan, there's fear from failure that is just silly.

The idea that people who are born with wealth are somehow better is why my country is in such a miserable state right now.

 

[Cowabungaa]

The school system is not teaching them academic skills which they will be able to take forward, it's teaching them to test well in a way which is essentially self-validating.

That must have some influence on university performance, right? Or do Japanese universities continue the "rote learning" way of doing things?

Even more so, I wonder what kind of effect that has on the populace at large and even their politics. A populace that doesn't understand how to grasp the world around them, how to place events and see 'the bigger picture' sounds like a populace that's very easily mislead. It also makes me wonder how Japan is/was such an innovative country in economic/technological terms. They have to learn lateral thought somewhere. But if it isn't in their schooling system, then where?

 

[MCerberus]

I think we can learn a lot from the culture, there seems to be a lot of emphasis about the ideas of people who are born with skills or wealth are inherently better or more successful and that only few can be "the best" and being good in just one thing does not matter. Naruto, Hero academy, Little Witch Academia. It's just a dark way of looking at the world and it is felt very strongly.

Also my boss said a pretty interesting thing about China but it can also apply to Japan, there's fear from failure that is just silly.

The idea that people who are born with wealth are somehow better is why my country is in such a miserable state right now.

I don't live in the USA but I believe it is not anywhere near the level of Japan. I usually see wealthy characters in American shows as stupid and incompetent (if they appear at all). Comics are a little worse, but under good writers characters like Batman are shown to be deeply disturbed and pretty much dedicating their whole lives for their goal.
In Japanese media the rich are ubermensch, beautiful, top grades, excellent in sports and do very little on screen to justify their abilities.

I'd recommend Assassination highschool for actually showing the divide quite well and Silver Spoon for "hey, you don't need to be a genius to be competent or happy".

You're forgetting that in the last decade the works of the ur-hypocrite Rand became super popular in the US and one of the fastest growing spiritual points of view is the "Prosperity Bible" which the president is a believer of.

If you google that, btw, it's best to have "The Sound of Silence" playing in the background.

 

[Baffle]

Their health system, in general, is fucking atrocious. I gashed my hand and wrist open and was having trouble stopping the bleeding with one hand. They have "hospitals" that fucking close. *Close*.

We do that in the UK too, though it tends to be on a permanent basis. They complain about the number of people in A&E who aren't actually in an emergency, but there only seem to be a lot of them because all the people who had an emergency died on the 30 mile trip to get there (I live in the UK, 30 miles is, like, 200 miles).

 

[MCerberus]

I think we can learn a lot from the culture, there seems to be a lot of emphasis about the ideas of people who are born with skills or wealth are inherently better or more successful and that only few can be "the best" and being good in just one thing does not matter. Naruto, Hero academy, Little Witch Academia. It's just a dark way of looking at the world and it is felt very strongly.

Also my boss said a pretty interesting thing about China but it can also apply to Japan, there's fear from failure that is just silly.

The idea that people who are born with wealth are somehow better is why my country is in such a miserable state right now.

I don't live in the USA but I believe it is not anywhere near the level of Japan. I usually see wealthy characters in American shows as stupid and incompetent (if they appear at all). Comics are a little worse, but under good writers characters like Batman are shown to be deeply disturbed and pretty much dedicating their whole lives for their goal.
In Japanese media the rich are ubermensch, beautiful, top grades, excellent in sports and do very little on screen to justify their abilities.

I'd recommend Assassination highschool for actually showing the divide quite well and Silver Spoon for "hey, you don't need to be a genius to be competent or happy".

You're forgetting that in the last decade the works of the ur-hypocrite Rand became super popular in the US and one of the fastest growing spiritual points of view is the "Prosperity Bible" which the president is a believer of.

If you google that, btw, it's best to have "The Sound of Silence" playing in the background.

Didn't really find anything on Google besides the book but the 2 things I guess (since the philosophy behind Rand's work is a pretty big topic):
Either people conflating "being successful means you'll be rich" (which is naive, but not bad) and "being born to rich family means you'll be successful" (which is stupid).
Or just a group thinking themselves as better than others due to a single trait which is also common to groups: by religion (including lack of it), sexuality, gender, eating preferences and the hand they use to wipe their ass.

the prosperity bible is the concept that if your rich that means you're good and god loves you.
If you're poor...