Define Terrorism

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cainx10a

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Chickenlittle said:
If they're willing to kill civilians to have a chance to even injure an enemy, I call that terrorism.

If they threaten to kill civilians, I call that terrorism.

If they suicide bomb, I call that terrorism.

If they use illegal weaponry, i.e. gas, I call that terrorism.

I think you get the idea.
if they use Legal Weapons, it's still terrorism, as the end goal is still the same, to terrorize their enemies. Take a look at the tamil tigers, they are both "terrorists" and "freedom fighters", they are ready to die to protect tamils, and more than willing to harm the other ethnic groups in sri lankas.

To quote a friend " ... they are the same guy protecting my family, and killing my neighbors because they are not Tamils ... "
 

sneakypenguin

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Terrorism is violence or the threat of violence against civilians to create chaos in a political order, to radically change society, to advance an ideological goal, or to provoke a response. It can generally be broken down into 3 categories.
State terrorism, that is in the manner or maoist china or Stalinist Russia. Typical of totalitarian governments.
Trans-national/international terrorism, what we usually picture when we think "terrorist" it is terrorist with no "home" country usually operating internationally for the advancement of an ideological cause. (Islamic extremism)
And then homegrown, or national terrorism, think the Basque separatist group ETA, or the Oklahoma city bombing.
 

Kiereek

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Terrorism: The use of violence, or threat of violence, to achieve goals that are political, religious, or ideological in state.

By this definition, you Americans (it pains me to even find that worthy of capitalization) are just as much terrorists as those you claim to be fighting.
 

santaandy

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Kiereek said:
Terrorism: The use of violence, or threat of violence, to achieve goals that are political, religious, or ideological in state.

By this definition, you Americans (it pains me to even find that worthy of capitalization) are just as much terrorists as those you claim to be fighting.
I disagree. Soldiers fighting soldiers on the field of battle capture enemy soldiers and do this all the time. But real terrorists kill innocent people simply to inflict fear, regardless of whatever else happens.

When soldiers die from a roadside bomb, it saddens me, but I at least "get it." The people who bombed them are fighting their enemy on the field of combat, to get the soldiers out of their homes so they cam be safe. But when some monster drives a bomb into a carload of children, I could never "get" that. *That* is terrorism, and *that* is why some of us consider terror evil and worthy of attempting to stop.

I'm not stupid. I know there's all kinds of political power plays going on in the background, and that no side is innocent or "good," but honestly, there has to be a line. And so far the line seems to be forming at "don't kill innocent civilians, regardless of the reason." If being a muslim doesn't make the other guy a monster, being American doesn't make me one either.
 

Winter Rat

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"The premeditated use of violence or the threat of violence by sub-national or non-state actors to generate fear or intimidation in a targetted population and thereby to affect political change. The targetted population need not be the same population against which violence is directed."

Thats mine from my Terrorism and Political Violence seminar. I got an A+ on that shit.
 

Silva

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Terrorism is an emotive term that has often been used to demonise one's political opponents. This has occurred on both so-called "sides" in the "War on Terrorism" that Bush pushed into his rhetoric. This overzealous, polarising use of the term has lead to wide international disagreements and the result is that really, one can't use the term without implying a lot more than the base original meaning. This makes it inappropriate for use in international discussions and it should - in my opinion - be dropped out of professional terminology entirely and replaced with other jargon.

Back to the base meaning. Terrorism can literally be described as violent action used to spread fear. There have historically been very few military actions that haven't in result had ramifications of widespread fear. With that said, the intent to cause fear isn't necessarily there on a wider scale in the force engaging in action. It can be an unintended result. But you'd be irresponsible to expect anything different. If you send gunners or drop bombs into a place full of civilians, the natural human response to such danger is to panic. Therefore, as Michael Franti sometimes puts it, "all bombing [read: all war] is terrorism". The problem with saying that, of course, is that calling it terrorism makes the more simple among us immediately think that it means "war=bad". It's actually a direct statement of fact, stating the easy logic that war causes terror, therefore conducting warfare is terrorism. But it's so difficult for many of us to separate the fact of the term from the emotions we attach to it.

While one man's terrorist could be another man's freedom fighter, I personally think that both have little right to take life. The only people who can allowably take life have to be able to bring it back, thereby making death and suffering reversible things, and so far that's impossible and a mere fantasy. War will realistically continue, but so will its injustice.

Of course, I'd never want to force my opinions on this to anyone else. I just think peace, and not forced peace but the peace of free will, must be sought, and that means that I disagree with pre-emptive warfare and the "other" mentality we place upon our fellow humans by calling them terrorists or any other emotionally laden word. Even people who kill others are humans, no matter how hard that is to accept, and therefore we should ideally be less ready than most nations are to take their lives for some "greater good". Only then can humanity come to grips with its' insane power to do good or evil, and turn its' back on the latter.

With the realities settled in and the injustice to a large extent unavoidable into the near future, there is obviously a need for a military force to defend each nation. If a nation is under a direct - and I don't mean this "oh some nation we don't like might have/be getting nuclear weaponry" idea, but literally "I have the weapon and now I'm going to blow up your country" kind of threat, then military action is justified in that the lives saved will ultimately outnumber the lives ended by conflict, and that an actual threat exists rather than what could be an invented one. So the existence of a military and its functions for a state as a Defense rather than a more appropriately named Attack Force (which would be a better name for some Western defense forces in terms of the conduct their politics has at times forced on them) makes sense.

Some people have pointed out so-called similarities between environmental movements and terrorist movements. I think that's a comparison of which most of you should be ashamed. Terrorist movements use military action to destroy lives. Environmental movements reduce pollution with the aspiration to save human life as well as other life, which we need to survive. Never the twain shall meet, except in one or two tiny extremist movements which are, like terrorist movements, implied to be the heads of the larger movement when in fact they're a tiny portion which is heavily divided from the rest.

And while some of you used Greenpeace as an example, I must point out that though they may break a few laws, they don't kill people. Newsflash of the year: that would go against, you know, "peace". Their main ideal.
 

Azetheros

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Silva said:
With the realities settled in and the injustice to a large extent unavoidable into the near future, there is obviously a need for a military force to defend each nation. If a nation is under a direct - and I don't mean this "oh some nation we don't like might have/be getting nuclear weaponry" idea, but literally "I have the weapon and now I'm going to blow up your country" kind of threat, then military action is justified in that the lives saved will ultimately outnumber the lives ended by conflict, and that an actual threat exists rather than what could be an invented one. So the existence of a military and its functions for a state functioning as a Defense rather than a more appropriately named Attack (which would be a better name for some Western defense forces in terms of the conduct their politics has at times forced on them) Force makes sense.
I would argue that pre-emptive strikes based on actionable intelligence should be valid, but (and this will be the day!) there should be sanctions if the attacking side can't prove that the threat it responded to wasn't real. After all, would it be moral if Nation A has a weapon, conceals it, and makes serious plans to deploy it on Nation B in a surprise attack, and Nation B found out and attacked Nation A to prevent this from happening?
 

Kiereek

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santaandy said:
Kiereek said:
Terrorism: The use of violence, or threat of violence, to achieve goals that are political, religious, or ideological in state.

By this definition, you Americans (it pains me to even find that worthy of capitalization) are just as much terrorists as those you claim to be fighting.
I disagree. Soldiers fighting soldiers on the field of battle capture enemy soldiers and do this all the time. But real terrorists kill innocent people simply to inflict fear, regardless of whatever else happens.

When soldiers die from a roadside bomb, it saddens me, but I at least "get it." The people who bombed them are fighting their enemy on the field of combat, to get the soldiers out of their homes so they cam be safe. But when some monster drives a bomb into a carload of children, I could never "get" that. *That* is terrorism, and *that* is why some of us consider terror evil and worthy of attempting to stop.

I'm not stupid. I know there's all kinds of political power plays going on in the background, and that no side is innocent or "good," but honestly, there has to be a line. And so far the line seems to be forming at "don't kill innocent civilians, regardless of the reason." If being a muslim doesn't make the other guy a monster, being American doesn't make me one either.
I can agree with your perspective of a soldier's death, and true, there are many good Americans (I sorta saw, and took, a cheap shot earlier). The concept of an innocent civilian however, died with industrialization. Seeing as the people are vital parts of the "war machine," they are just as much a target now as the soldiers on the battlefield. Eliminate factories to stop production, supplies to starve the country, school to stop teachings that don't fit your views. They are all your enemies if you are in a war.

The word terrorism is usually used to define something that most people can agree to be negitive, but I still do not like using to describe attacks. I consider it an act of war, as if it were instigated by a state, then it usually would constitute war. In that case, it should not be twisted to sound like something bad, but an occurence that has now to be dealt with. A bomb, in any form, would be perfectly acceptable if they would simply see it as an act of war. Same with the word terrorist. It makes them sound like bad people. I prefer freedom fighter, or revolutionary. They are always going to be the heroes for someone.

Finally, there is definately no good side, you're right. But historical and political background is definately an important part of this. We have to remember what created this conflict in the first place. For example, let's look at a few countries. North Korea, generally accepted to dislike the USA. We can trace this back to the Korean War, where the USA (not to mention the UN) put their forces behind the South Koreans, and Rhee. Even though it was suppose to be a peacekeeping mission, they pushed right up into China (where they were promptly pushed back for shelling Chinese land). A good start for a bad relationship I'd say. Iran, USA supports the Shah, who uses the most brutal secret police to terrorise (there's that word again), and oppress the Iranian people, and because of this, Ayatollah Khomenini revolts and takes over, establishing an Islamic Fundamenalist State. They blame the hardships they endured on the American people for re-instating the Shah. In general, it is mostly safe to travel there if you're not American. Cuba, USA supports recently ousted Battista, and launches invasion later on at Bay of Pigs. Although a failure, it leads to the Cubans agreeing to the USSR putting intermediate range missiles there, and a breakdown of Cuban-American relations. Having just come back from Cuba myself, I can say there are still many people who hold a grudge against the USA. Afghanistan, USSR begins invasion of the country in the 1970's. The USA backs the rebellion group headed by Osama Bin Laden, a hero in his own part of the world, and the ally of the USA at that time. They supply him with weapons, technology, and it gives him a seat of power and respect in the long run. I suppose all I'm trying to get across is that the past can come back to bite, and that when you side with anyone, you should always expect some sort of retaliation, and not just label them a "terrorist" just because you're not on the side that can call them a hero.

By the way, thanks for taking this seriously, and sorry again, because I definately wasn't being too serious when I made that first post. Nice talking to you.
 

Silva

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Azetheros said:
I would argue that pre-emptive strikes based on actionable intelligence should be valid, but (and this will be the day!) there should be sanctions if the attacking side can't prove that the threat it responded to wasn't real. After all, would it be moral if Nation A has a weapon, conceals it, and makes serious plans to deploy it on Nation B in a surprise attack, and Nation B found out and attacked Nation A to prevent this from happening?
Ah well, there are huge legal problems with enforcing that. Namely that the United States and a few of the other key nations can pretty much Hadoken any attempt at giving them sanctions through the UN. You'd need a bigger international authority, or some way of supercharging the UN in an objective fashion.

I agree that if there were a way to make such strikes accountable they'd be more valid, but I still think that morally justifying an action after it is done and not before doing it isn't ideal. The best example why this still wouldn't work is political self-sacrifices - a person might sacrifice their political career by doing such and such a military action, taking the blame for sanctions and then getting a million bucks from some company for protecting their special interests. If that can happen, international law enforcement isn't doing its job. What's more, it's debatable whether Nation B would need to conduct a larger attack on Nation A to prevent the strike in the hypothetical you've outlined.

Finally, in this increasingly complex and delicate Information Age where data is very easy to change and move, there is a fine line between actionable intelligence and possibly falsified or questionable intelligence, particularly in the case of a nation on another side of the world. And in the context of military action, it seems to me much more sensible to err on the side of caution than action, particularly if you've got a running missile defense system.
 

santaandy

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Kiereek said:
I can agree with your perspective of a soldier's death, and true, there are many good Americans (I sorta saw, and took, a cheap shot earlier). The concept of an innocent civilian however, died with industrialization. Seeing as the people are vital parts of the "war machine," they are just as much a target now as the soldiers on the battlefield. Eliminate factories to stop production, supplies to starve the country, school to stop teachings that don't fit your views. They are all your enemies if you are in a war.

The word terrorism is usually used to define something that most people can agree to be negitive, but I still do not like using to describe attacks. I consider it an act of war, as if it were instigated by a state, then it usually would constitute war. In that case, it should not be twisted to sound like something bad, but an occurence that has now to be dealt with. A bomb, in any form, would be perfectly acceptable if they would simply see it as an act of war. Same with the word terrorist. It makes them sound like bad people. I prefer freedom fighter, or revolutionary. They are always going to be the heroes for someone.

Finally, there is definately no good side, you're right. But historical and political background is definately an important part of this. We have to remember what created this conflict in the first place. For example, let's look at a few countries. North Korea, generally accepted to dislike the USA. We can trace this back to the Korean War, where the USA (not to mention the UN) put their forces behind the South Koreans, and Rhee. Even though it was suppose to be a peacekeeping mission, they pushed right up into China (where they were promptly pushed back for shelling Chinese land). A good start for a bad relationship I'd say. Iran, USA supports the Shah, who uses the most brutal secret police to terrorise (there's that word again), and oppress the Iranian people, and because of this, Ayatollah Khomenini revolts and takes over, establishing an Islamic Fundamenalist State. They blame the hardships they endured on the American people for re-instating the Shah. In general, it is mostly safe to travel there if you're not American. Cuba, USA supports recently ousted Battista, and launches invasion later on at Bay of Pigs. Although a failure, it leads to the Cubans agreeing to the USSR putting intermediate range missiles there, and a breakdown of Cuban-American relations. Having just come back from Cuba myself, I can say there are still many people who hold a grudge against the USA. Afghanistan, USSR begins invasion of the country in the 1970's. The USA backs the rebellion group headed by Osama Bin Laden, a hero in his own part of the world, and the ally of the USA at that time. They supply him with weapons, technology, and it gives him a seat of power and respect in the long run. I suppose all I'm trying to get across is that the past can come back to bite, and that when you side with anyone, you should always expect some sort of retaliation, and not just label them a "terrorist" just because you're not on the side that can call them a hero.

By the way, thanks for taking this seriously, and sorry again, because I definately wasn't being too serious when I made that first post. Nice talking to you.
Well thank you for engaging me in intelligent debate. You don't have to apologize for your opinion, even though I disagree I'm not going to hold a grudge. My point was not to be a bleeding heart for every poor soul lost during wartime; rather, I was trying to illustrate how terrorism goes outside of that to become something else.

I must question, though, why you have such a harsh view of civilians? Innocence didn't die with industrialization, it just changed. I agree that those working on bombs and the planes to drop them are not exactly innocent, but schools? That sounds a bit far, doesn't it? I wouldn't suggest America bomb Iraqi schools so they couldn't teach children in ways America didn't like. Besides, there have been reports in the news about terrorists in the Middle East using their own people as human shields during battles! These people are also willing to bomb weddings and funerals, even in other Middle Eastern countries! Those people were just as innocent as any Western victims were. And the terrorists do all this just to spread fear. They'll never stop, because fear isn't a goal that can be reached, it's a condition that must be maintained. They have stated that they want us to know that nowhere is safe from them. That's my problem with terrorists - they will kill anyone and everyone just to spread fear. I understand that defending your own homeland or your own innocent people is justifiable, but bombing weddings, funerals, and children never is.

I do agree with you that terrorism isn't just carried out by suicide bombers. Governments that oppress their people are just as guilty. And you're right in that the Western world has treated the Middle East very badly for some time. I can sympathize with their desire to be respected as people and as equals. I can even sympathize with their desire to push our military bases (we had some pre-wartime) and occupation force out, even if it means fighting us. I know you didn't say this, but blaming the government or combat force's actions on the entire population is what is exacerbating this situation right now. And fear (of not knowing who is who) is part of it.

But the line must be drawn there. After all, you also pointed out how the USA has treated North Korea and Cuba just as badly, but NK and Cuba never murdered civilians over it. And as long as we don't inflict violent harm on them, they probably won't.
 

Crazy Elf

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Civilian casualties are racked up by every military force that's actively engaged in conflict. Historically this has always happened. If you're carpet bombing an area you're definitely going to hit something other than your primary target. Thus civilian deaths, if included in a definition, would surely include every military group out there, and many police forces also.
 

Silva

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Crazy Elf said:
Civilian casualties are racked up by every military force that's actively engaged in conflict. Historically this has always happened. If you're carpet bombing an area you're definitely going to hit something other than your primary target. Thus civilian deaths, if included in a definition, would surely include every military group out there, and many police forces also.
Well said. That's the problem, exactly.
 

jamesworkshop

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Terrorist actions are
Guerilla warfare against non-military targets like civilians or buildings/infrastructure performed for the purpose of forcing political changes.
In other words groups that are too small to raise a proper military force but wants say a country to withdraw from an area or warzone and thus attack the nations civilians with the message that if their demands are met the attacks will stop.
 

Gaz_mcMillan

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Non-government forces doing acts of violence against a general population or a certain groups of people(including other "terrorist" groups) or a particular religious groups

A terrorist is some one who works with terror and is not part of a government of any ideology e.g. democracy