Democrats already retreating from public option before DNC even starts

[lil devils x]

Cool. Your praxis is to perpetuate the way things have been going until we all fucking die. Not giving a shit about Qanon when it is turning millions of people into potential McVeighs is dumb as hell, and there was plenty of time to care about that at least as much as you do voting before we got here.

Also, if corporations do have that long of tentacles (questionable language but ok) then how can you trust the Dems to ever change? You’re admitting defeat then carrying out an empty ritual to feel like you did something. It’s insane. Sure, I rail against the faux-progressivism of Democratic leadership all the time, but at least I think there’s options other than giving them more power to resolve this issue. You don’t. It’s... honestly sad. This is like talking to an actual Qanon follower. You’re fixated on an immaterial solution to your problems because reality has seemingly robbed you of all other options.

It isn't that I don't give a "shit about Qanon" it is that you are not going to convince them of reality by pointing them to reality on the internet. They have already had that done a million times one more voice fading into the background isn't going to change their minds here. Instead, you go after those spreading the misinformation. In order for us to do that though we have to pass legislation. That isn't going to happen as long as the GOP is in control however, because they are the ones doing it.

I don't trust the dems to change, I trust progressives to try and do everything within their power to bribe, beg borrow and steal to get the votes needed to get some good done while they are there. Until we have an actual progressive majority, that is the best I can hope for.

LMAO.. I am not the one proposing an unrealistic option here, you are. Taking away the power from the few actual progressives we have in congress and ignoring what they are telling you they need ISN'T HELPING THEM. It isn't helping anyone. not even yourself. Calling them idealistic and ignoring what they tell you they need you to do when they are the ONLY ones trying to help you isn't helping. You are just ensuring they fail, we fail and progressives are continued to be weakened.

 

[Revnak]

It isn't that I don't give a "shit about Qanon" it is that you are not going to convince them of reality by pointing them to reality on the internet. They have already had that done a million times one more voice fading into the background isn't going to change their minds here. Instead, you go after those spreading the misinformation. In order for us to do that though we have to pass legislation. That isn't going to happen as long as the GOP is in control however, because they are the ones doing it.

Literally all effective effort to deal with Qanon was carried out by random citizens. What’s the government gonna do, regulate twitter? Or do you honestly think Qanon was birthed by some vast conspiracy of Republican figures and not just internet Nazis?

I don't trust the dems to change, I trust progressives to try and do everything within their power to bribe, beg borrow and steal to get the votes needed to get some good done while they are there. Until we have an actual progressive majority, that is the best I can hope for.

Cool, it’s the faux-progressive Dems that are most guilty of perpetuating this. Not guys like Biden, but San Francisco Dems or my own mayor and governor, people who claim far left credentials then rig the system to benefit their corporate donors.

LMAO.. I am not the one proposing an unrealistic option here, you are. Taking away the power from the few actual progressives we have in congress and ignoring what they are telling you they need ISN'T HELPING THEM. It isn't helping anyone. not even yourself. Calling them idealistic and ignoring what they tell you they need you to do when they are the ONLY ones trying to help you isn't helping. You are just ensuring they fail.

I have never said to not vote. I’ve just said it’s comparatively meaningless and continuing to fetishize its power legitimizes your own oppression and furthers your alienation. As for how one can further progressives, well, my progressives are the people marching in the streets. The careerists like Bernie are preferable to their alternatives, but I don’t hold them up as gods because trusting your politicians is idiotic.

 

[lil devils x]

Literally all effective effort to deal with Qanon was carried out by random citizens. What’s the government gonna do, regulate twitter? Or do you honestly think Qanon was birthed by some vast conspiracy of Republican figures and not just internet Nazis?

Cool, it’s the faux-progressive Dems that are most guilty of perpetuating this. Not guys like Biden, but San Francisco Dems or my own mayor and governor, people who claim far left credentials then rig the system to benefit their corporate donors.

I have never said to not vote. I’ve just said it’s comparatively meaningless and continuing to fetishize its power legitimizes your own oppression and furthers your alienation. As for how one can further progressives, well, my progressives are the people marching in the streets. The careerists like Bernie are preferable to their alternatives, but I don’t hold them up as gods because trusting your politicians is idiotic.

What exactly has been effective at Qanon? haven't they been growing? The most effective hit they have taken was over pizzagate and sandy hook lawsuits.. and even then they still grew afterwards. Qanon was birthed by right wing conspiracy nutjobs like Alex Jones. That is no surprise here.

I don't think Bernie Sanders, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez or Elizabeth Warren are faux progressives. That is why I am trying to do everything within my power to not tie their hands and at least give them a shot to be able to do something. It may be a long shot, but better than nothing. It is all we have right now so I think we would be stupid not to take it.

I have never said to not vote.

Post#124

Or, and here’s something, do literally anything that isn’t fucking voting.

Democrats already retreating from public option before DNC even starts

So, you’re saying electoralism is worthless? No, it works fine when you have enough votes in the regions necessary to win a majority. Otherwise, expect to bribe, beg, borrow and steal to get ANYTHING done by any means possible. (Where possessives are in the current political landscape). If you...

forums.escapistmagazine.com

Marches are great in addition to voting, but without voting, nothing changes. Who exactly holds them up as Gods, helping them change things for the better =\= worshiping them.

 

[Revnak]

What exactly has been effective at Qanon? haven't they been growing? The most effective hit they have taken was over pizzagate and sandy hook lawsuits.. and even then they still grew afterwards. Qanon was birthed by right wing conspiracy nutjobs like Alex Jones. That is no surprise here.

Freddrick Brennan’s one man war to destroy the beast he created for one thing. The cult studies community trying to raise awareness and setup spaces for people to figure out what’s going on. Also Pizzagate isn’t Qanon it just primed some people to believe it and if that’s your depth of knowledge please learn literally anything about it dear lord.

I don't think Bernie Sanders, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez or Elizabeth Warren are faux progressives. That is why I am trying to do everything within my power to not tie their hands and at least give them a shot to be able to do something. It may be a long shot, but better than nothing. It is all we have right now so I think we would be stupid not to take it.

Difference of opinion on Warren and three people aren’t gonna flip the party through VBNMW.

Post#124

Democrats already retreating from public option before DNC even starts

So, you’re saying electoralism is worthless? No, it works fine when you have enough votes in the regions necessary to win a majority. Otherwise, expect to bribe, beg, borrow and steal to get ANYTHING done by any means possible. (Where possessives are in the current political landscape). If you...

forums.escapistmagazine.com

That doesn’t exclude also voting. My wording was specific and intentional. Go ahead and vote. The only political action less meaningful than voting is not voting.

Marches are great in addition to voting, but without voting, nothing changes. Who exactly holds them up as Gods, helping them change things for the better =\= worshiping them.

With voting nothing changes, without marching literally nothing changes. Voting for virulent racist LBJ didn’t grant civil rights, demanding it through direct action did. If you want progressivism without mass movements you’re a fool.

 

[Eacaraxe]

You do not lose your access to healthcare with unpaid medical bills, you just keep getting more bills and seeing your doctor regularly. My healthcare never stopped in the process. My brother's healthcare never stopped, My sisters healthcare never stopped.. like I said, everyone in my family has unpaid medical bills and it has had ZERO impact on anyone's access to healthcare. I am one of ten children BTW. Your healthcare doesn't stop when you don't pay your medical bills, I have no idea why you think it does in the first place. After 7 years it drops from your credit and never gets paid. It is more of a problem for the healthcare facilities rather than the end user.

Oh, well if it's all monopoly money and has no real world value or relevance after seven years, who gives a fuck and why should we actually have to do anything? It's not like we have private insurance companies out there just inventing costs and sticking hospitals with unsustainable losses and bad debt, right? What could possibly go wrong?

 

[Gergar12]

What exactly has been effective at Qanon? haven't they been growing? The most effective hit they have taken was over pizzagate and sandy hook lawsuits.. and even then they still grew afterwards. Qanon was birthed by right wing conspiracy nutjobs like Alex Jones. That is no surprise here.

I don't think Bernie Sanders, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez or Elizabeth Warren are faux progressives. That is why I am trying to do everything within my power to not tie their hands and at least give them a shot to be able to do something. It may be a long shot, but better than nothing. It is all we have right now so I think we would be stupid not to take it.


Post#124

Democrats already retreating from public option before DNC even starts

So, you’re saying electoralism is worthless? No, it works fine when you have enough votes in the regions necessary to win a majority. Otherwise, expect to bribe, beg, borrow and steal to get ANYTHING done by any means possible. (Where possessives are in the current political landscape). If you...

forums.escapistmagazine.com

Marches are great in addition to voting, but without voting, nothing changes. Who exactly holds them up as Gods, helping them change things for the better =\= worshiping them.

Warren is a useful idiot for Biden.

 

[tippy2k2]

Yes, debt sucks, we still have over $100,000 in my dad's medical bills sitting here even though he had medicare. No one is going to pay it. 3 years to go before it drops off my Moms credit. At least they still had access to healthcare in the meantime though. The thing is though "debt slavery" is just an accepted part of life for the American Poor. Otherwise they would never have a working refrigerator or stove or be able to have a place to live at all.

EDIT: BTW, My mom and brother are STILL racking up medical bills that will go unpaid in the hospital as we speak.

...the fact that anyone can possibly owe six figures in medical bills while STILL having insurance should be everything needed to be said about our current healthcare system.

 

[lil devils x]

...the fact that anyone can possibly owe six figures in medical bills while STILL having insurance should be everything needed to be said about our current healthcare system.

My Dad only had medicare. Because medicare doesn't pay for everything or pay the hospitals enough, you still wind up with bills if you want to be properly cared for. This is on top of him paying monthly for medicare so he had medicare part A and B, he couldn't afford to get more after that even though they have other medicare plans you can pay for as well on top of that. My Mom only has medicare part A so we expect her bills to be even higher. She and my brother are still in separate hospitals in Dallas right now. My uncle lost his home to medicare as well. The way medicare and medicaid recoup their costs is a huge part of the problem here in addition to their underpayments to healthcare providers
.
I 100% agree that our current healthcare system is broken, I just am willing to look at all the options and plans to get from point A to point B so that we can solve it while also trying to save as many people in the process while we do it.

 

[lil devils x]

Warren is a useful idiot for Biden.

That is so much BS. She is one of the smartest people we have in congress. She is smarter than Biden, and far from being a "useful Idiot".
Warren Graduated the University of Houston in 1970 with a Bachelor of Science Degree
She received her Doctor of Jurisprudence Degree in 1976 from Rutgers law WHILE pregnant with her second child.
She was associate Dean of University of Houston Law Center 1978–83
Warren taught classes at:
University of Texas School of Law
University of Michigan
University of Pennsylvania Law School
Harvard Law School
She left the Republican party to fight against them and the corporations they support and has since fought relentlessly to protect middle class families. She has come up with some of the best plans I have seen to resolve many of the issues facing the middle and lower class. Her numbers actually add up here and the plans she has worked out actually work.

Before insulting her, take a look at what you have accomplished in comparison.How does your credentials and record stack up against hers? She has been doing a hell of a lot more to help the people in the US than most of our other members of combined AND she did all this while having babies and trying to raise a family. That is no easy task in itself let alone having to endure childbirth and sleepless nights with children in the process. She deserves respect.

 

[Silvanus]

With voting nothing changes, without marching literally nothing changes. Voting for virulent racist LBJ didn’t grant civil rights, demanding it through direct action did. If you want progressivism without mass movements you’re a fool.

In truth, the Civil Rights Act wouldn't have happened without both of those things. Had the mass movement gone ahead during a Goldwater presidency, there would have been no Act. As retrograde as the Democratic Party of the sixties was, it was still more sympathetic to the Act, and the only one of the two parties that would have implemented it in any circumstance.

Progressivism absolutely requires mass movement, direct action, protest, and civil disobedience. But these things cannot pass legislation. They can create pressure to do so, but you need at least some willingness in government to concede. With a Republican victory in '63, the US would not have had the Civil Rights Act in '64, mass movement or no.

 

[Eacaraxe]

She left the Republican party to fight against them and the corporations they support and has since fought relentlessly to protect middle class families. She has come up with some of the best plans I have seen to resolve many of the issues facing the middle and lower class. Her numbers actually add up here and the plans she has worked out actually work.

She literally got into politics to fight the bankruptcy bill Biden's office wrote in '95 and finally passed in '05.

How Biden Helped Strip Bankruptcy Protection From Millions Just Before a Recession

Biden and Elizabeth Warren have been fighting each other since the 2005 bankruptcy bill.

www.gq.com

 

[Buyetyen]

Literally all effective effort to deal with Qanon was carried out by random citizens.

Question: how many fanatics, zealots, cultists or people with severe mental health disorders effecting their ability to reason have you been able to logic back to normal?

I ask because deprogramming this shit is way harder than you seem to think it is. Civilians have been taking steps to contain Qanon, but the idea that we can stop it with no organized effort, coordination or general strategy is a fantasy. You cannot brute force an idea to death, only starve it.

 

[Gergar12]

That is so much BS. She is one of the smartest people we have in congress. She is smarter than Biden, and far from being a "useful Idiot".
Warren Graduated the University of Houston in 1970 with a Bachelor of Science Degree
She received her Doctor of Jurisprudence Degree in 1976 from Rutgers law WHILE pregnant with her second child.
She was associate Dean of University of Houston Law Center 1978–83
Warren taught classes at:
University of Texas School of Law
University of Michigan
University of Pennsylvania Law School
Harvard Law School
She left the Republican party to fight against them and the corporations they support and has since fought relentlessly to protect middle class families. She has come up with some of the best plans I have seen to resolve many of the issues facing the middle and lower class. Her numbers actually add up here and the plans she has worked out actually work.

Before insulting her, take a look at what you have accomplished in comparison.How does your credentials and record stack up against hers? She has been doing a hell of a lot more to help the people in the US than most of our other members of combined AND she did all this while having babies and trying to raise a family. That is no easy task in itself let alone having to endure childbirth and sleepless nights with children in the process. She deserves respect.

I am not saying she's not smart, I am saying she is being used by the establishment to further their goals.

Useful idiot - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[lil devils x]

I am not saying she's not smart, I am saying she is being used by the establishment to further their goals.

Useful idiot - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I know what a " useful idiot" is. I am telling you that she is not, she is actually giving herself the best chance she has to get anything passed in the meantime. Warren is using Biden to accomplish her own goals, not the other way around. If anything, you have it backwards. Why do you think Bernie, Warren and even AOC are all telling us to vote for Biden even when they pretty much destroyed him prior to the primaries? Me telling you that she is one of the smartest people in congress is ALSO telling you that she is too smart to be used like that. It is the other way around.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Warren is using Biden to accomplish her own goals, not the other way around.

To advance her career?

 

[Revnak]

Question: how many fanatics, zealots, cultists or people with severe mental health disorders effecting their ability to reason have you been able to logic back to normal?

I ask because deprogramming this shit is way harder than you seem to think it is. Civilians have been taking steps to contain Qanon, but the idea that we can stop it with no organized effort, coordination or general strategy is a fantasy. You cannot brute force an idea to death, only starve it.

Firstly, saying all of them have mental disabilities is pretty inaccurate. Secondly, yeah it’s more complicated and difficult than just sitting down and talking to someone, but giving up on what is probably a couple million people (and rapidly growing) at this point means accepting that once Trump loses at something we just accept that there will be a few hundred McVeighs, which is a horrifying thought. Limiting the growth and educating yourself is important. Keeping tabs on your family members who have started believing this stuff rather than letting them get more and more lonely until they blow up a federal building is important. Ugh, treating this like something that having Dems in charge will fix when in fact that is the exact trigger for them starting to kill people is extremely foolish.

 

[Buyetyen]

Firstly, saying all of them have mental disabilities is pretty inaccurate.

Firstly, that's not what I said.

Secondly, yeah it’s more complicated and difficult than just sitting down and talking to someone, but giving up on what is probably a couple million people (and rapidly growing) at this point means accepting that once Trump loses at something we just accept that there will be a few hundred McVeighs, which is a horrifying thought.

There's a lot of things you can do between, "Try to brute force a problem," and, "Give up." That's the point. Too many people still seem to believe that they can reason with unreasonable people.

 

[Worgen]

Firstly, saying all of them have mental disabilities is pretty inaccurate. Secondly, yeah it’s more complicated and difficult than just sitting down and talking to someone, but giving up on what is probably a couple million people (and rapidly growing) at this point means accepting that once Trump loses at something we just accept that there will be a few hundred McVeighs, which is a horrifying thought. Limiting the growth and educating yourself is important. Keeping tabs on your family members who have started believing this stuff rather than letting them get more and more lonely until they blow up a federal building is important. Ugh, treating this like something that having Dems in charge will fix when in fact that is the exact trigger for them starting to kill people is extremely foolish.

You might want to check this out.

 

[Revnak]

In truth, the Civil Rights Act wouldn't have happened without both of those things. Had the mass movement gone ahead during a Goldwater presidency, there would have been no Act. As retrograde as the Democratic Party of the sixties was, it was still more sympathetic to the Act, and the only one of the two parties that would have implemented it in any circumstance.

Progressivism absolutely requires mass movement, direct action, protest, and civil disobedience. But these things cannot pass legislation. They can create pressure to do so, but you need at least some willingness in government to concede. With a Republican victory in '63, the US would not have had the Civil Rights Act in '64, mass movement or no.

They do pass legislation because they put actual pressure on politicians, regardless of their personal beliefs, to create reforms, while otherwise their donors and the inertia of liberal capitalism are the only things putting that pressure on them.

 

[Revnak]

There's a lot of things you can do between, "Try to brute force a problem," and, "Give up." That's the point. Too many people still seem to believe that they can reason with unreasonable people.

Calling them unreasonable is a denial of their humanity, they’re simply operating under a different set of presumptions than you. It absolutely is worthless to try to argue them into changing, but that’s true about basically everything. I also don’t believe in “brute forcing” most any problem, this one included.