Depolarizing the Sexist Debate: Idle Thumbs and Girlfriend Mode on Borderlands 2

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Jun 23, 2008
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The Background

You can skip this part if you've been keeping up on current events.

We're in a prolonged high tide in regards to the the sexism-in-games discussion launched by Anita Sarkeesian's Tropes vs. Women in Video Games ("I want to protect her." comments [http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games/posts/242547] by TR-gritty-reboot executive producer Ron Rosenberg, and we have a field of debate fecund for polarization, presumption and vitriol.

Fun times!

Worse yet, pregnancy by rape [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Akin], as justification for his position against reproductive and women's health care services, such as birth control and abortion.[footnote]The Akins affair is also of note because, scientifically-challenged justifications aside, his opinion, that abortion restrictions should carry no exceptions for incidents of rape, incest or some health concerns, was simply an open expression of the the platform position of the GOP, which they hold at the demands of anti-abortion extremists. The 'publicans like to keep this quiet since it's not popular with moderate and even not-quite-so-radical Republicans. It gives fresh meaning to the term talking in mixed company. And watching the GOP distance themselves from Akins in a tiny (proverbial) room is proving quite entertaining.[/footnote]

So shit's crazy.

And now...

Idle Thumbs recently girlfriend mode controversy [http://blog.idlethumbs.net/post/29980547182/idle-thumbs-71-nothings-as-good-as-ya-eat-em], a debate that continues as of this writing.

Of equal interest to me (in the same podcast) was the unquestioned acceptance that Borderlands [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderlands_%28video_game%29] was a particularly misogynistic game, the justification of which I do not comprehend.

This is something I don't quite get, and in the interest of giving my colleagues the benefit of the doubt, I'm going to presume the Idle Thumbs position on Borderlands' misogyny is more sophisticated than a reaction to are crazy [http://borderlands.wikia.com/wiki/Mad_Moxxi], as is every other Borderlands character). Soooo...misogynist? How? Am I missing something?[footnote]Yes. I'm really asking this: Is there some major element of misogyny in Borderlands that I'm not seeing, or any major element of misanthropy that applies only to the women of the game? If there is, I'm missing it.[/footnote]

Getting back to the girlfriend mode issue, granted, there are better terms that could have been used, but we're talking about a developer's own nickname for the BFF skill tree, perhaps for want of a safer term coming to (his) mind (sweetheart mode? spouse mode? noob mode? muggle mode?) The prejudice I personally read from this is not that girls can't shoot[footnote]It's noted on Problem Machine [http://problemmachine.wordpress.com/2012/08/22/binary-world/] that reading girls can't shoot from girlfriend mode is rather heteronormative, and belies our own prejudices.[/footnote] but that friends and partners of gamers can't shoot, which is sometimes the case. Some of us have buddies and paramours that aren't as accurate as we are, possibly because they're playing on an Xbox (ka-ziiiing!)

Anyway, the girlfriend mode controversy is a good place to offer the idea that sexism and misogyny are not the Soulcalibur series [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boolean_data_type], each with physicsier boob-physics than the last.).[/footnote] Differing opinions make make general acceptance of a single graph unlikely, but it is more important simply to recognize that there is a scale, and that more egregiously sexist incidents are worth calling out in contrast to minor ones (excessive reactions to which often work against feminism as a legitimate cause).

That said, a developer's poor choice of non-official terminology for a skill tree, I'd think, is hardly a blip in the maelstrom that is brewing, especially when juxtaposed to a representative running for senator using pseudoscience as justification to deny rights to women in the US. Of course, to attack scrutiny of the sexism-in-gaming tapestry bravely, more questions will have to be asked (and answered), one of which is Exactly what amount of sexism in a game is enough about which raising a stink is appropriate? At what level is it obligatory? And at what point is it so mild that a commenter would be regarded as "too sensitive"?

Does beefcake balance out cheesecake? If not, what does?

Are rape jokes (jokes that mention rape or imply rape) ever appropriate?

How can vagina dentata really be a thing in a society in love with fellatio?

238U[footnote]This is the first of what will be an ongoing series about the sexism-in-video-games debate, and about elevating the level of controversial debate on the internet at large, in this, what is (I believe) a New Golden Age of Philosophy. From what I've seen so far of Anita Sarkeesian's Tropes vs. Women series on YouTube, and her Kickstarter project on video games, I'm not impressed. I figured it's going to be up to us (that is, the internetz and the video games community) to analyze what is going on, to model out not just where things are too sexually biased, but what is affects and how to create change. And I think it'll be truly awesome if we can do better than Sarkeesian, and do it for free.[/footnote]
 

rbstewart7263

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Trilligan said:
Uriel-238 said:
I don't know you sir but I think you might be my hero. Intelligence and moderation in the sexism debacle debate? I had lost all hope that this would be a possibility.

I will formulate thoughts and rejoin this discussion at a later time, but I just wanted to say bravo sir, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the subject in more detail
Good read. I will try to avoid debates as much as possible unlike triligan ive lost my taste for them for a minute and need a break. preferably one where the thread stops popping up and we can go back to the good old days where the biggest argument was whether pc was better than your ps1.

that said I agree if you cry wolf at every little thing you disenfranchise yourself. thats why mainstream media ignores feminists today. with the exception of the current abortion debates.
 

Fiz_The_Toaster

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Boudica said:
It's because, once again, women are the at end of the gaming culture spear. In a vacuum his comment was just poor choice of words and nothing more. However, life isn't a vacuum and his choice of words is part of the stereotype it helps propagate, that women gamers are separate from men and often worse. It reminds us how much of a boy's club gaming is and, once again, makes us feel like an outsider.

His comment was dumb. He admitted it was a poor choice. It wasn't a grave insult or a sexist slur. It was another straw on the camels back.
I took the name "Girlfriend Mode" rather tongue in cheek considering the game in question doesn't take itself too seriously and jokes around a lot, but to each their own.

OT: Borderlands is misogynistic? That's news to me seeing as one of the playable characters, Lillith, was a massive badass and just an awesome character. Steele was another female character that seem like a big deal to me, although I rolled my eyes when I heard her talk, Russians be the enemy yo.

Anyways, I don't think this is a big deal to be honest and I'm not gonna take it seriously since he didn't mean it in a derogatory way, but rather jokingly.
 

Smooth Operator

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On the Borderlands 2 thing the guy made a stupid comment(something we all utter from time to time), but in this childish medium everyone flips their shit at a moments notice and that statement is now in every podcast and on every website for the next decade as proof of his heinous crimes against humanity... well done guys.

As for the rest take it to the politics section so we can happily ignore the incoming wave of flames.
 

Vault101

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since "girlfreind mode" is not actually in the game...but just a dumb thing somone said..and the fact the game is pretty awsome in regards to female charachters anyway I think its best to let it slide....

you have to pick your battles
 

SecondPrize

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Fellatio refers to one very specific act. You were looking for cunnilingus, which is the same idea as the first, but different.
 

Lieju

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Not only cannot you really measure sexism, a lot depends on the context.
Is the whole game over-blown? Duke Nukem might be sexist, but it's not really to be taken seriously. In fact, for me that kind of sexism is not that offensive. I'm far more offended(or rather disturbed) by the small things, where the bad treatment of women is like an afterthought. (where for example the female character is raped, but the whole story just clances over what it's like for her, or if a woman in an otherwise serious story will be treated as merely fanservice)
Or even ignoring the female audience.

At least something like DoA sells itself as fanservice, but when I play a game that is supposed to be about shooting things, or a story, or jumping on things etc. and then see that I can't play as a female character, or all women are treated as fanservice, the message is that I'm not a part of the intended audience. Which is fine, if it only applies to some games, but that's not the case.

TaintedSaint said:
I'm sick of this overly PC crap, everyone too easily offended learn to take a damn joke.
Maybe at times. But saying something is 'just a joke' should not protect you from criticism.

Boudica said:
It's because, once again, women are the at end of the gaming culture spear. In a vacuum his comment was just poor choice of words and nothing more. However, life isn't a vacuum and his choice of words is part of the stereotype it helps propagate, that women gamers are separate from men and often worse. It reminds us how much of a boy's club gaming is and, once again, makes us feel like an outsider.

His comment was dumb. He admitted it was a poor choice. It wasn't a grave insult or a sexist slur. It was another straw on the camels back.
I totally agree.
 
Aug 25, 2009
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For most of these debates I have one main point, which branches out into further points.

Developers use the wrong terminology.

Calling it Girlfriend Mode is a bad idea, even if it's his personal nickname. What's even worse is that his exact words were 'since I can't think of a better term - girlfriend mode.' Newbie Mode, Noob Mode, Beginner Mode. There's three without even trying.

So what does this show? It shows two things, the first is that their PR department is either a joke or very clever (which will most likely be determined by how well it works) and the second is that apparently when confronted with needing a word to mean 'not very good at games' the first thing this guy thinks of is 'women.' And that shows the deeper underlying problem with his outlook.

Yes, it isn't as bad as saying that there's nothing wrong with rape. It's not as bad as Todd Akin's comments. But it perhaps shows how deep-rooted the problem is. This isn't just some grand issue out in the open and being discussed (which the Tomb Raider rape controversy would seem to suggest) it is a general mindset of some people working in the industry. Perhaps what makes sexism so much harder to fight is that so many people try to write it off as a light hearted joke or nothing particularly important.
 

Skipper zammo

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SecondPrize said:
Fellatio refers to one very specific act. You were looking for cunnilingus, which is the same idea as the first, but different.
No I think he means fellatio. As in why is there an irrational fear of putting your dick into an vagina with teeth when most guys are pretty into the idea of putting their dick into a mouth when those usually have teeth.

At least that how I understood it.
 
Aug 25, 2009
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TaintedSaint said:
I'm sick of this overly PC crap, everyone too easily offended learn to take a damn joke.
http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-double-standards-were-all-guilty-of/

I believe Point Number 4 is the one we should all be aware of here.

http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1991-18334-001

http://www.chron.com/life/article/Race-related-blog-drawing-white-hot-reactions-1789947.php

Now maybe it would be very hard to make a joke about you (I'm assuming caucasian, Western, 16-24, middle-class man) but the evidence would suggest that if someone started to, you suddenly wouldn't think it was very funny. Now obviously since this is the internet you can pretend all you want, and maybe you personally genuinely wouldn't be offended, but here's a nice basic rule to live by.

If you're not one of the people being joked about, don't just assume the joke didn't cause offence.

Because frankly, what exactly do you know about being talked down to simply because of your gender/class/race?
 

Ragsnstitches

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Boudica said:
MelasZepheos said:
Apparently when confronted with needing a word to mean 'not very good at games' the first thing this guy thinks of is 'women.' And that shows the deeper underlying problem with his outlook.

Yes, it isn't as bad as saying that there's nothing wrong with rape. It's not as bad as Todd Akin's comments. But it perhaps shows how deep-rooted the problem is. This isn't just some grand issue out in the open and being discussed (which the Tomb Raider rape controversy would seem to suggest) it is a general mindset of some people working in the industry. Perhaps what makes sexism so much harder to fight is that so many people try to write it off as a light hearted joke or nothing particularly important.
Exactly.

One man's comments are not the problem. The problem is that this happens, that it's in the culture and part of people's mindsets.

If your first thought when you hear "thief" is "Jew" there's a problem. It's not destructive if you don't mean anything by it, but it's a symptom of a sick culture.
I agree that his comments are tied to the grander issue. But you have to be intelligent about the issues you tackle. Dragging 1 off colour comment into a media frenzy causes the majority of people who are either passively interested in the whole debate, or unfamiliar, to think you are jumping at ghosts. It devalues the issue to the uninitiated and hardens your opposition resolve. Two things that really harm this cause in the long run.

Personally, I think the best event in recent months to plant your flag on is Anitas Sarkessians "Tropes vs Women" (?) kickstarter fiasco. That is something far more telling of the wider issue. There are plenty of sites that concentrate the worst of the internets ignorance for you to use as reference to support your argument.

This guys comments? Not even a footnote... the criticism is justified, a mistake should be corrected after all, but this isn't the issue. At worst his comments are symptomatic of the greater issue, not the core of it. Attacking him is akin to a torched earth policy for dealing with a viral pandemic.

Admittedly, these "outbursts" will caution public speakers. But it won't eliminate the social frame of mind that causes these slips. Rather then changing public opinion or changing the social norms, all that is really achieved is a "bottling" effect. The issues get repressed, not addressed. Watch out now, look at future comments from the Borderlands team (gearbox?) and watch how they completely avoid making none scripted comments and try to shift focus from anything other then gender.

That isn't fixing things. That's sweeping them under the rug. It achieves nothing beyond the appearance of success... while in actuality all that was accomplished was you temporarily gagged someone.

I'm starting to sound like one of those folks who demand you don't "rock the boat". That isn't what I want. The guy should have been called out on his comments... in a dialogue, not a flash mob. The reaction needs to be proportional to the offence.
 

Spirit356

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MelasZepheos said:
TaintedSaint said:
I'm sick of this overly PC crap, everyone too easily offended learn to take a damn joke.
http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-double-standards-were-all-guilty-of/

I believe Point Number 4 is the one we should all be aware of here.

http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1991-18334-001

http://www.chron.com/life/article/Race-related-blog-drawing-white-hot-reactions-1789947.php

Now maybe it would be very hard to make a joke about you (I'm assuming caucasian, Western, 16-24, middle-class man) but the evidence would suggest that if someone started to, you suddenly wouldn't think it was very funny. Now obviously since this is the internet you can pretend all you want, and maybe you personally genuinely wouldn't be offended, but here's a nice basic rule to live by.

If you're not one of the people being joked about, don't just assume the joke didn't cause offence.

Because frankly, what exactly do you know about being talked down to simply because of your gender/class/race?
You do realise that with your final statement you're being just as ignorant as you claim others are? I'm sure there are many caucasian, 16-24 year old, middle class men who have been treated differently because of their position. You're doing it right now when you assume that they have never been treated negatively. In response to the sexism argument I would concede that with certain people there is an issue with gender in the gaming world and that is wrong. However, lets be honest here, those people are just assholes. The 'girlfriend-mode' debate? In my opinion that seems more like a joke that was taken in poor taste more than any actual put down of women. Based on my experience anyway women tend to enjoy playing more of a support role in RPG's such as healer, buffer/debuffer and this could be why the joke was made.
 
Aug 25, 2009
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Spirit356 said:
MelasZepheos said:
TaintedSaint said:
http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-double-standards-were-all-guilty-of/

I believe Point Number 4 is the one we should all be aware of here.

http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1991-18334-001

http://www.chron.com/life/article/Race-related-blog-drawing-white-hot-reactions-1789947.php

Now maybe it would be very hard to make a joke about you (I'm assuming caucasian, Western, 16-24, middle-class man) but the evidence would suggest that if someone started to, you suddenly wouldn't think it was very funny. Now obviously since this is the internet you can pretend all you want, and maybe you personally genuinely wouldn't be offended, but here's a nice basic rule to live by.

If you're not one of the people being joked about, don't just assume the joke didn't cause offence.

Because frankly, what exactly do you know about being talked down to simply because of your gender/class/race?
You do realise that with your final statement you're being just as ignorant as you claim others are? I'm sure there are many caucasian, 16-24 year old, middle class men who have been treated differently because of their position. You're doing it right now when you assume that they have never been treated negatively. In response to the sexism argument I would concede that with certain people there is an issue with gender in the gaming world and that is wrong. However, lets be honest here, those people are just assholes. The 'girlfriend-mode' debate? In my opinion that seems more like a joke that was taken in poor taste more than any actual put down of women. Based on my experience anyway women tend to enjoy playing more of a support role in RPG's such as healer, buffer/debuffer and this could be why the joke was made.
Yes, exactly. That's exactly what my last statement was meant to do, and your response seems pretty angry to me. Maybe not all caps insulting my family angry but calling me ignorant and questioning my motivations?

You very obviously didn't do that for the comments that the Borderlands developer made, you just assumed they were a joke, but the second I make an assumption that targets 16-24 white males I get a response within seconds telling me how wrong I am.
 

Spirit356

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MelasZepheos said:
Spirit356 said:
MelasZepheos said:
TaintedSaint said:
http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-double-standards-were-all-guilty-of/

I believe Point Number 4 is the one we should all be aware of here.

http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1991-18334-001

http://www.chron.com/life/article/Race-related-blog-drawing-white-hot-reactions-1789947.php

Now maybe it would be very hard to make a joke about you (I'm assuming caucasian, Western, 16-24, middle-class man) but the evidence would suggest that if someone started to, you suddenly wouldn't think it was very funny. Now obviously since this is the internet you can pretend all you want, and maybe you personally genuinely wouldn't be offended, but here's a nice basic rule to live by.

If you're not one of the people being joked about, don't just assume the joke didn't cause offence.

Because frankly, what exactly do you know about being talked down to simply because of your gender/class/race?
You do realise that with your final statement you're being just as ignorant as you claim others are? I'm sure there are many caucasian, 16-24 year old, middle class men who have been treated differently because of their position. You're doing it right now when you assume that they have never been treated negatively. In response to the sexism argument I would concede that with certain people there is an issue with gender in the gaming world and that is wrong. However, lets be honest here, those people are just assholes. The 'girlfriend-mode' debate? In my opinion that seems more like a joke that was taken in poor taste more than any actual put down of women. Based on my experience anyway women tend to enjoy playing more of a support role in RPG's such as healer, buffer/debuffer and this could be why the joke was made.
Yes, exactly. That's exactly what my last statement was meant to do, and your response seems pretty angry to me. Maybe not all caps insulting my family angry but calling me ignorant and questioning my motivations?

You very obviously didn't do that for the comments that the Borderlands developer made, you just assumed they were a joke, but the second I make an assumption that targets 16-24 white males I get a response within seconds telling me how wrong I am.
You should realise I'm not the target group that your last comment was aimed towards? Also you'll have to factor in that your comment was in text with no other way for me to discern it since there is no way to discern inflection via text? So when I read your comment I could only take it seriously and thought that you were being hypocritical and thats what I was informing you of. Perhaps next time a joke tag would be more appropriate? Also I assumed it was a joke because it would be near suicidal for a game developer to publically say 'Women are completely inferior to men in everyway when it comes to gaming and therefore we have created this character to give women the natural role that they were born to do i.e. to be a submissive follower, only there to further A MANS goals and wishes.' Perhaps that was what he meant all along.