Depolarizing the Sexist Debate: Idle Thumbs and Girlfriend Mode on Borderlands 2

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Phasmal

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Jun 10, 2011
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Ninjamedic said:
I'm always reminded of the Catcher in the Rye episode of South Park whenever this argument comes up.

Phasmal said:
As I've said endlessly, its an entire meduim of entertainment. To suggest it belongs to dudes is laughable.
I just have to stop to ask, who is suggesting that Computer Games belong to dudes?
That was more aimed at people arguing against making games more accessable/diverse.
Although I'd be lying if I said I hadn't met a bunch of dudes who really did think gaming was for men.
But those guys are just what we would normally call `Assholes`.
 

Something Amyss

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TaintedSaint said:
I'm sick of this overly PC crap, everyone too easily offended learn to take a damn joke.
That's a lot of hostility from someone who is complaining about people being too easily offended.
 

Ninjamedic

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Phasmal said:
That was more aimed at people arguing against making games more accessable/diverse.
I say the validity of that observation depends on the context. If we're talking about more female characters in multiplayer games (Team Fortress, Aliens: Colonial Marines) for equal representation where there is no reason not to, I agree with you. However there shouldn't be an obligation to shoehorn in a female playable character if they don't belong.

I wonder what is worse, a lack of a female character, or a blatantly token female character?
 

saintdane05

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Common myths and misconceptions about feminism include:

All feminists are women.[/B]
Just as it's possible for straight people to be in favor of same-sex marriage, or for non-Jews to be against anti-Semitism, it is very much possible for men to identify as feminist. Some well-known men who identify as feminists or have expressed feminist ideals include Alan Alda, Joss Whedon, Kurt Cobain, John Lennon, Hayao Miyazaki, Henrik Ibsen, John Stuart Mill, Linkara and most of his male colleagues, Frederick Douglass, and L. Frank Baum.
It's worth noting that there's a minority school of thought that says while men can (and should) support feminism, they shouldn't identify themselves as feminists, because they think feminism is fundamentally about women solving their own problems without looking to men to do it for them. Men sympathetic to feminism who agree with this point of view generally describe themselves as "pro-feminist."

All feminists are lesbians.[/B]
Lesbians have been an important part of the feminist movement pretty much from day one ? prominent lesbian or bisexual feminists include Andrea Dworkin, Valerie Solanas, Simone de Beauvoir, Judith Butler, Julia Serano, Camille Paglia and Mary Daly. However, many (probably most) feminists are straight women. There are also male feminists (straight, bisexual, gay and asexual), asexual feminists, transgender feminists, and feminists of any other sexuality and gender identity you can think of.
There have been a few feminist writers ? especially during the 1970's, before the movement had made as many gains as it had today ? who suggested that it might not be possible to have a truly egalitarian heterosexual relationship as long as sexism remained pervasive in society. This was fiercely debated even at the time, though, and it was never mainstream feminist dogma that women had to swear off sex with men to become feminists.

All feminists are hairy-legged, makeup-shunnin', boot-wearin' brutes.[/B]
As much as feminists dislike the "women must be dainty and pretty" messages that society/media blast at them, for most, it's the must part that they object to. Some feminists choose to avoid or reject mainstream beauty ideals as a statement of protest, and there are even some who adhere to a Real Women Never Wear Dresses philosophy ? but it's increasingly argued that valuing traditionally masculine behavior (like being unconcerned about looks) over traditionally feminine behavior (like wearing dresses and makeup) is ultimately pretty anti-feminist in itself. Most feminists just think men and women should be equally free to decide for themselves how much effort they care to put into their appearance.

Feminism was invented in the 1970s.[/B]
Go back to any place and time where there has been widespread discrimination against women, and you will find feminism. (Or at least something that looks like feminism if you squint hard enough.) The word "feminism" dates back to 1895, and Christine de Pizan was writing feminist works as far back as the early 15th century. If you believe that men can be feminists and that identifying with the movement isn't essential, then according to some interpretations of his work feminism may go all the way back to Euripides. That would make Feminism Older Than Feudalism. (On the other hand, some of his contemporaries called him misogynistic even by Ancient Greek standards.)

Feminists think men and women are 100% identical.
Most feminists would agree that there are slight, overall differences between the sexes. While sentiments like "men tend to be slightly physically stronger than women" can lead to arguments if stated/interpreted wrongly, the majority of feminists would concede that, yes, males generally have females beat in raw strength. What really grinds a feminist's gears are suggestions that:

*Something that applies to one sex is universal and cannot apply to the other sex. ("Any man is physically stronger than any woman, ever, period.")

*Differences between the sexes are an excuse for sexual discrimination. ("Women are not as physically strong as men, and thus no women should ever be allowed to have jobs that require lifting heavy objects.") (Or, even worse, "Women are not as physically strong as men, and thus no woman should ever be allowed to have jobs.")

*Failure to adhere to expectations about one's sex is an excuse for ridicule. ("Any man weaker than a woman is a loser; any woman stronger than a man is a freak.")

Likewise, feminists often wonder how much of certain purported differences - say, girls being better at reading and boys being better at math - are actual innate differences, versus how much they might be a result of socialization (e.g., girls are scared away from pursuing math/boys refuse to spend time reading because they don't want to behave "inappropriately" for their gender and/or they're already convinced they'll be bad at it due to their gender). Most feminists don't deny that it's possible there are some real, innate psychological differences between the sexes ? they just think those differences are probably pretty small, and that it's better to just treat people to as individuals.
Feminists also have a problem with attributing to gender individual character traits that could have originated from other sources, like natural human reactions. For example, Jenny is crying because her father died ? which surely warrants a good cry ? but people observing her assume that she's emotionally distraught because she's a giiiiirl. (If you're about to protest that this sort of behavioral mis-assignment could happen to anyone, well, you're right: it's a known psychological bias called the fundamental attribution error.)
And just to complicate matters further, there's a whole school of thought (though, again, not the mainstream these days) called Difference Feminism, which argues that there are real, significant, biological differences between men and women, and that feminism should be not about treating men and women as the same, but about making sure feminine traits aren't devalued in comparison with masculine ones.

Feminists are frigid, hate sex, and want to stop anyone from enjoying porn or fanservice.[/B]
Feminists have a problem with porn tropes that promote a degrading or hateful view of women (Victim Falls For Rapist, Not If They Enjoyed It Rationalization, Sex Slave, etc.), and with the ways the porn industry exploits a lot of the women who work for it. Some (again, this was a more popular position in the 1970's than it is today) do think porn inherently objectifies women and is therefore always misogynistic; other feminists, though, think what the world actually needs is better porn ? porn that presents sex as something where both partners' desires should be equally important. There's more of a consensus on fanservice: feminists are generally not against seeing sexy ladies in media, but don't like how often the ladies' Character Development is pushed aside in favor of looking at their, err, other developments. In any case, most feminists enjoy sex just fine, and those who don't are typically at least okay with the idea of it. There's even a whole faction of the movement, called Sex-Positive Feminism, that focuses on working to promote positive and empowering views of sexuality.

Feminists hate men, think women are better than men, and think women should have more power than men.[/B]
Women who seriously blame men for everything are known to readers of this wiki as Straw Feminists and to mainstream feminists as "wrong." Most feminists don't think sexism is primarily something all individual men do to all individual women ? the problem is patriarchy, which is the name for the whole system of cultural ideas and institutions that function to oppress and control women. Women can ? and frequently do ? act in ways that support patriarchy, and men can ? and do ? fight patriarchy. The point of feminism (as much as such a vast and highly fragmented movement can be said to have a point) is to raise women to the level of rights/respect that men have had for centuries, not to drag men down to subhuman levels as some cosmic act of revenge.

Feminists think women are the only ones who are hurt by sexism, and don't care about men's problems.[/B]
It's pretty uncontroversial in feminist circles to point out that patriarchy hurts men in plenty of ways. (Some would argue that it hurts women more on the whole, but others think the whole question of whose oppression is worse is a pointless distraction from actually working to fix things.) A lot of feminists specifically focus on the ways men's oppression and women's oppression are linked ? for instance, many argue that companies need to start granting paternity leave both so that fathers can have the chance to bond with their kids, and so that women aren't always assumed to be the ones who are automatically responsible for child care.

Feminists burn bras.[/B]
Back in The Sixties, there were some public demonstrations in which feminists threw bras, high heels, and other fashion-related items into trash cans to protest unrealistic standards of beauty. A newspaper headline compared these actions to men burning draft cards during The Vietnam War. The two ideas got jumbled together in the public consciousness, and the myth of bra-burning continues to this day.
Feminists are angry, bitter harpies.[/B]

Most feminists will have certain Double Standards they especially loathe; however, they don't go around being cranky all the time, any more than atheists do. (Besides, don't we all have certain double standards we especially loathe? Fundamental attribution error at work again, ladies and gentlemen.)
 

Boogie Knight

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Let's ask the simple question: Why did he call it "girlfriend mode?"
I propose a very simple answer, it's consise and descriptive of the skill tree.

Yes, it's a stereotype of a guy trying to get his significant other to play a game with him and the disparity in familiarity kills the fun. Yes, gaming has made greater inroads in popular culture, and there are plenty of women who are very proficient. However, that does not mean that every fella' is certain to hook up with a woman who is into video games, and I'm hoping that interest in games is a factor that determines whether or not a couple can really connect. Never seen a study or poll about it, but I have a hard time imagining that an attitude which bases the moral worth of others is based on proficiency in gaming reflects a significant number of individuals.

I read about people putting this comment in the context of the discussions of sexism and rape. This makes me shake my head in disbelief, at worst it's not a progressive statement, but citing a stereotype which does have some basis in reality is hardly a call for treating women as pets. That there is any bruhaha over the statement tells me the controversy is not social attitudes, but grabbing at anything which can be construed as proof to push a political agenda.
 

Phasmal

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Ninjamedic said:
Phasmal said:
That was more aimed at people arguing against making games more accessable/diverse.
I say the validity of that observation depends on the context. If we're talking about more female characters in multiplayer games (Team Fortress, Aliens: Colonial Marines) for equal representation where there is no reason not to, I agree with you. However there shouldn't be an obligation to shoehorn in a female playable character if they don't belong.

I wonder what is worse, a lack of a female character, or a blatantly token female character?
I think we will probably have to put up with a certain amount of tokenism for a while, until gaming gets used to female characters and relaxes to the point where they dont feel like they have to shove 100 stereotypes in there.
Still, considering that females are like 51% of the population, having none around at all is only specific to certain situations... (I dunno, men's locker room? I was gonna say army, but there are ladies in the army, maybe not on the front lines but they're certainly around).
So if there's no females around for no good reason, I'd consider that worse than a bit of tokenism.
But that's just my opinion, of course.
 

Signa

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Lieju said:
Signa said:
Ok, I get what you are saying, but it seems like splitting hairs to me. If I made a joke or a painting and someone said "your work is bad, and you should feel bad" I'm going to take it as a sign that they think I shouldn't do it at all. That's why we have constructive criticism. It lets the creator know that they aren't hated, just that they should do better. I wasn't talking about constructive criticism, just the cold, hard "you suck!" type of responses. You say that to an artist, and the best response you could hope from them is "you just don't get it," and the worst is just going be them being completely demoralized.
I see. For you, criticism means automatically mean spirited, and you differentiate by saying that non-mean spirited criticism is 'constructive criticism'.
When I say 'criticism' I don't mean flaming here, I'm talking about voicing one's opinion on something, being a critic.
And I'd like to remind you where this discussion started; I said saying 'it's a joke' is not a valid defence from criticism. What are we even talking about here?
Here's my point:
People are allowed to say stupid things, and people should be allowed to point out those things are stupid.
Also, something can be shit, and I can think it's shit, but it doesn't mean I think it shouldn't exist.
I'm not trying to burn all copies of Twilight, after all.
Saying dumb things is different than telling an offensive joke. I laugh at dead baby jokes, but the are admittedly tasteless. I understand anyone calling someone an idiot for telling those jokes, but it should be up to the recipient to just ignore them instead of critiquing them. Now if we're talking about creationist theory, that's another matter entirely.

I guess that's just another tangent though. On the whole, I think we are agreeing here, but are arguing over semantics.

Signa said:
But that's my point, girls (or women if you prefer.) around me are completely allowed or encouraged to play games with guys, but they still don't (my brother's GF being a perfect example). It's not like games are controlled with penises, and girls just simply can't participate, they just don't want to. That says to me that they have completely different thought processes. That's not a bad thing, but it's a thing that shouldn't be ignored.
Or, you know, it's cultural.
You're a girl, right? Tell me how you think that culture has expressed that you shouldn't enjoy yourself because you have boobs? Gaming can be an universal unifier. People love to have fun and compete, sometimes in a cooperative setting. I say "people" because I mean everyone. Yet women around me don't have that interest. There's a few that do, and I fully commend them, but I've have friends who's wives will leave the room and go do her own thing not because it's "guy time" but because she doesn't give a damn about the things we find fun. This saddens me, yet it's their choices that have formed my opinion on this matter.

Signa said:
As a guy, I don't know how to cater to a woman when designing a game. I would absolutely love a series of games that has some sort of crossover into "guy game" territory, but is aimed at women. I don't know what that would be like, but I think we should have it. I'd love to have a girl that I could game with and watercooler chat about the virtual adventures we shared. My perception of the girls around me doesn't leave that as a likely possibility.
Maybe you aren't the authority on all womankind? Just a thought.
I'd hardly say I am, and I fully acknowledge that my experiences don't represent the entire female population. It's just that for every 10 or so girls that act as I described above, I only see one like my best friend's wife that actively participates in what we do. She wants to have fun with the rest of us, and so she does. Maybe she's bucking culture, I don't know, but she's what I want to see in the women around me.

Let me point out that making this point is an uphill battle for me, because I'm speaking to a girl on a gaming website about my perceptions. A girl calling herself a gamer is already stretching that perception thin, so I have to figure out if you're actually just one of the whole crowd of girls that I have false perceptions of, or one of the ten that I compliment for being a fun and likeable person. You're fitting snugly in that 1 of 10, but is it actually 1 of 10, or 2 of 5? 4 of 5? I can't be sure. Do you know?


Women are people, just like men, and have different likes and dislikes. But things like having the choice to play as a woman, or having female characters that are equally complex and relatable as the men, would be good.

Or think of something like Portal. Does your ability to enjoy the game as a man suffer from the player character being female?
Ideally, 50% of characters like Chell whose sex doesn't matter would be female.
But making those characters always men sends the message that being a man is the norm, having tits is weird and unnatural.
Bah, fuck Chell. Chell is a blank slate that doesn't do anything for either gender. Now Jade from Beyond Good and Evil (please tell me you've played it!) is a good example of a female lead we need more of.

I understand needing an avatar that represents you. You will get no argument from me about that. As a guy, this is slightly harder to empathize with, since all the characters I play as are guys already. The only counterpoint I can make is the characters needs to be part of the setting of the game, and forcing females into those settings might not work right. I'm talking about competitive (using the word loosely here) games like TF2, CoD, or Tribes: Ascend. Every one of those games features a setting involving waring factions that women likely wouldn't be a part of, and if they were, probably would end up as targets for looking different and standing out.
 

Ninjamedic

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Phasmal said:
I think we will probably have to put up with a certain amount of tokenism for a while, until gaming gets used to female characters and relaxes to the point where they dont feel like they have to shove 100 stereotypes in there.
I put that down to bad writing rather than sexism myself. You can point to just as many writing clichés in male characters as well.


Still, considering that females are like 51% of the population, having none around at all is only specific to certain situations... (I dunno, men's locker room? I was gonna say army, but there are ladies in the army, maybe not on the front lines but they're certainly around).
I may have phrased that point badly. I mean more in the sense that a character shouldn't necessarily have to be female unless it is relevant to the context of the game. (This isn't counting games where there are multiple PC's of course).

I still think I haven't phrased that right.

So if there's no females around for no good reason, I'd consider that worse than a bit of tokenism.
But that's just my opinion, of course.
Jeff Bridges has taught us all.
 

Phasmal

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Ninjamedic said:
Still, considering that females are like 51% of the population, having none around at all is only specific to certain situations... (I dunno, men's locker room? I was gonna say army, but there are ladies in the army, maybe not on the front lines but they're certainly around).
I may have phrased that point badly. I mean more in the sense that a character shouldn't necessarily have to be female unless it is relevant to the context of the game. (This isn't counting games where there are multiple PC's of course).

I still think I haven't phrased that right.
Uh.... what.
No, a character shouldnt have to be female, but it shouldn't have to be relevant that they are female either. I mean, male should not be the default all the time. There doesn't need to be a `reason` why they are female.

Not quite sure what you're driving at there.

(Oh, and I agree with you about bad writing in games, some of it is just damn cringeworthy)
 

ElPatron

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This might be because of cultural issues, but the "Girlfriend mode" doesn't strike me as sexism.

I am not sure where we picked this up but it's common to describe a partner or just someone who tags along as a "girlfriend" when you're providing help/cover in a game, "riding shotgun" etc. Mind that this is used mainly on guys, like the "prison girlfriend" thing.

Skipper zammo said:
No I think he means fellatio. As in why is there an irrational fear of putting your dick into an vagina with teeth when most guys are pretty into the idea of putting their dick into a mouth when those usually has teeth.

At least that how I understood it.
Vaginas with teeth? It's horrible and uncanny and nobody wants an ugly monster ripping their junk off - it's not so irrational. After all, human faces don't look like monsters when performing fellatio.

Personally, now that I think of it, vaginas with teeth sound hot.
 

Ninjamedic

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Phasmal said:
There doesn't need to be a `reason` why they are female.


Not quite sure what you're driving at there.
That's what I meant. I was trying to say that writing a character who has "being female" as a character trait unless it is relevant to the context of the game is pointless.

Like a character that is black but not calling out that he is black unless its relevant to the story.

Apologies for the confusion, I'm not the best at articulating these points in text.
 

Overusedname

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Ragsnstitches said:
Boudica said:
MelasZepheos said:
Apparently when confronted with needing a word to mean 'not very good at games' the first thing this guy thinks of is 'women.' And that shows the deeper underlying problem with his outlook.

Yes, it isn't as bad as saying that there's nothing wrong with rape. It's not as bad as Todd Akin's comments. But it perhaps shows how deep-rooted the problem is. This isn't just some grand issue out in the open and being discussed (which the Tomb Raider rape controversy would seem to suggest) it is a general mindset of some people working in the industry. Perhaps what makes sexism so much harder to fight is that so many people try to write it off as a light hearted joke or nothing particularly important.
Exactly.

One man's comments are not the problem. The problem is that this happens, that it's in the culture and part of people's mindsets.

If your first thought when you hear "thief" is "Jew" there's a problem. It's not destructive if you don't mean anything by it, but it's a symptom of a sick culture.
I agree that his comments are tied to the grander issue. But you have to be intelligent about the issues you tackle. Dragging 1 off colour comment into a media frenzy causes the majority of people who are either passively interested in the whole debate, or unfamiliar, to think you are jumping at ghosts. It devalues the issue to the uninitiated and hardens your opposition resolve. Two things that really harm this cause in the long run.
Hmm...I see what you mean. I'd break it down like this:

Girl friend mode reaction: Overkill. It's good that people called him out, but it didn't need to be taken to this extent. It makes us look overzealous.

Street Fighter Coach harassing his female player reaction: He deserves every bit of hate he gets, as he's the extreme of sexism in this sub-culture. We need to make it clear his type isn't accepted here.

Lara croft incident reaction: Tod's comments made this so much worse. Incredibly stupid, asinine and insensitive to the point it almost seems intentional. I'd love to see him deny 'rape culture' existing after those statements. The trailer wasn't nearly as bad as his comments after the fact.

Hitman Trailer reaction: Our reaction shows that we're growing up a bit, and hate being patronized and pandered to in this kinda way. This sort of over-the-top sexy kill-kill-die stuff is nothing new. The reaction is a symptom of positive change, though I think we were a little overdramatic about and kinda missed the point. It was a stupid trailer, yeah, but it didn't deserve that much hate.
--------

We gotta pick our battles. Point out the problem with things like Girlfriend mode, and go into full-on attack mode when people like Akin talk about 'illegitimate rape'.
 

D Moness

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Signa said:
PS: I should point out that I am completely unconvinced that girls are in fact gamers. At least on the level we are talking about here. Back in highschool, we had a game club where all the nerds went every friday and played all sorts of games. There were 4 girls there out of 40 or so people. 2 of them were identical twin sisters, their best friend, and then this one girl that was so socially awkward that no one liked her (besides the point). Every girl I've met since only plays games like Farmville, Bejeweled, and maybe Nancy Drew mysteries. AAA games just aren't made to be interesting for girls.
Funny a female co-worker at my work was playing closed beta of guildwars 2 and really couldn't wait for it to be released(as was a male co-worker(the topic about guildwars was around 2 weeks ago)). My female friends play games like : skyrim, portal , borderlands , dragon age : origins, L4D2. I can mention many other AAA titles they play.

The fact that you only meet people that play facebook games doesn't mean there are not others out there that play AAA titles.
 

Phasmal

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Signa said:
PS: I should point out that I am completely unconvinced that girls are in fact gamers. At least on the level we are talking about here. Back in highschool, we had a game club where all the nerds went every friday and played all sorts of games. There were 4 girls there out of 40 or so people. 2 of them were identical twin sisters, their best friend, and then this one girl that was so socially awkward that no one liked her (besides the point). Every girl I've met since only plays games like Farmville, Bejeweled, and maybe Nancy Drew mysteries. AAA games just aren't made to be interesting for girls. That is a fault of the industry, but it's also a lot to do with the mentality of females. I'm far more likely to run into a girl that says "you play games? When are going to grow up?" than someone who would do Baal runs in Diablo 2 with me. That's the part we should be focusing on, not how the makers of a game that the general populace of girl gamers wouldn't pick up on their own volition are acknowledging that fact.
Once again, I'm in your generalisations, messin' em up.
You probably don't think that girls play games if you decide ones you talk to don't `count`.
Yeah, we're not all over the shop, but we're there.

Ninjamedic said:
Phasmal said:
There doesn't need to be a `reason` why they are female.


Not quite sure what you're driving at there.
That's what I meant. I was trying to say that writing a character who has "being female" as a character trait unless it is relevant to the context of the game is pointless.

Like a character that is black but not calling out that he is black unless its relevant to the story.

Apologies for the confusion, I'm not the best at articulating these points in text.
Ah, okay, crossed wires.
I thought you were saying they can't be female unless it's relevant to the game.
Nevermind, I got you now.
 

Signa

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D Moness said:
Signa said:
PS: I should point out that I am completely unconvinced that girls are in fact gamers. At least on the level we are talking about here. Back in highschool, we had a game club where all the nerds went every friday and played all sorts of games. There were 4 girls there out of 40 or so people. 2 of them were identical twin sisters, their best friend, and then this one girl that was so socially awkward that no one liked her (besides the point). Every girl I've met since only plays games like Farmville, Bejeweled, and maybe Nancy Drew mysteries. AAA games just aren't made to be interesting for girls.
Funny a female co-worker at my work was playing closed beta of guildwars 2 and really couldn't wait for it to be released(as was a male co-worker(the topic about guildwars was around 2 weeks ago)). My female friends play games like : skyrim, portal , borderlands , dragon age : origins, L4D2. I can mention many other AAA titles they play.

The fact that you only meet people that play facebook games doesn't mean there are not others out there that play AAA titles.
So, roughly how many girls is that? I don't see anything you said changing anything I said. I know girls play games, but is it common? My roommate is constantly hanging out online with a chick from Canada (we're in Seattle), and they are going to meet up at PAX. She even hopped into our game of Terraria once. I know girl gamers exist.

Tell you what, go on Facebook, and find all the girls that are you friends with, and possibly girls that are friends of friends, and tell me how many you know to or see making positive comments about gaming, or someone they know playing games. Tally them and post the results back.

Or better yet, start a thread here asking if you're a girl or a guy, and make a poll. If anything, that will be more fair because I'd wager there are more girl gamers here than on facebook.
 

Ragsnstitches

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Overusedname said:
Ragsnstitches said:
Boudica said:
MelasZepheos said:
Apparently when confronted with needing a word to mean 'not very good at games' the first thing this guy thinks of is 'women.' And that shows the deeper underlying problem with his outlook.

Yes, it isn't as bad as saying that there's nothing wrong with rape. It's not as bad as Todd Akin's comments. But it perhaps shows how deep-rooted the problem is. This isn't just some grand issue out in the open and being discussed (which the Tomb Raider rape controversy would seem to suggest) it is a general mindset of some people working in the industry. Perhaps what makes sexism so much harder to fight is that so many people try to write it off as a light hearted joke or nothing particularly important.
Exactly.

One man's comments are not the problem. The problem is that this happens, that it's in the culture and part of people's mindsets.

If your first thought when you hear "thief" is "Jew" there's a problem. It's not destructive if you don't mean anything by it, but it's a symptom of a sick culture.
I agree that his comments are tied to the grander issue. But you have to be intelligent about the issues you tackle. Dragging 1 off colour comment into a media frenzy causes the majority of people who are either passively interested in the whole debate, or unfamiliar, to think you are jumping at ghosts. It devalues the issue to the uninitiated and hardens your opposition resolve. Two things that really harm this cause in the long run.
Hmm...I see what you mean. I'd break it down like this:

Girl friend mode reaction: Overkill. It's good that people called him out, but it didn't need to be taken to this extent. It makes us look overzealous.

Street Fighter Coach harassing his female player reaction: He deserves every bit of hate he gets, as he's the extreme of sexism in this sub-culture. We need to make it clear his type isn't accepted here.

Lara croft incident reaction: Tod's comments made this so much worse. Incredibly stupid, asinine and insensitive to the point it almost seems intentional. I'd love to see him deny 'rape culture' existing after those statements. The trailer wasn't nearly as bad as his comments after the fact.

Hitman Trailer reaction: Our reaction shows that we're growing up a bit, and hate being patronized and pandered to in this kinda way. This sort of over-the-top sexy kill-kill-die stuff is nothing new. The reaction is a symptom of positive change, though I think we were a little overdramatic about and kinda missed the point. It was a stupid trailer, yeah, but it didn't deserve that much hate.
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We gotta pick our battles. Point out the problem with things like Girlfriend mode, and go into full-on attack mode when people like Akin talk about 'illegitimate rape'.
Did he actually say "illegitimate rape" or are you paraphrasing. Wow... Wow.

It should be case by case treatment. Again, the response should be proportional to the issue.

Just be careful if you join the "attack". These things can turn on you if something happens to swing to media against you... and the media, as much as I hate them, are the ones you need on your side. By the sound of things Akin has already started to feel the ire of an inflamed media frenzy.

Any argument (attack) made against him should come from a knowledgeable and informed standing. You can't expect common sense to win the day. I'm really struggling to phrase what I mean here...

Essentially, if a person like Akin carries baggage and preconceptions into a debate, you should counter his basis with an informed and educated response... not your own baggage.

Its really hard to clarify the point I'm trying to make. Feel free to ignore this response.
 

Signa

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Phasmal said:
Signa said:
PS: I should point out that I am completely unconvinced that girls are in fact gamers. At least on the level we are talking about here. Back in highschool, we had a game club where all the nerds went every friday and played all sorts of games. There were 4 girls there out of 40 or so people. 2 of them were identical twin sisters, their best friend, and then this one girl that was so socially awkward that no one liked her (besides the point). Every girl I've met since only plays games like Farmville, Bejeweled, and maybe Nancy Drew mysteries. AAA games just aren't made to be interesting for girls. That is a fault of the industry, but it's also a lot to do with the mentality of females. I'm far more likely to run into a girl that says "you play games? When are going to grow up?" than someone who would do Baal runs in Diablo 2 with me. That's the part we should be focusing on, not how the makers of a game that the general populace of girl gamers wouldn't pick up on their own volition are acknowledging that fact.
Once again, I'm in your generalisations, messin' em up.
You probably don't think that girls play games if you decide ones you talk to don't `count`.
Yeah, we're not all over the shop, but we're there.
NOOOOOOO!!! NOt my generalizations! They've be messed!

I am really sorry that I keep being the dickhole around you that I am, but I'm still yet to see something to indicate to me otherwise. On this site, there's you, Vault01, and now Lieju that have revealed themselves as girls that don't fit my generalizations. I emphatically applaud all of you, but there's still a lot more than 30 other guys on this site that is holding my "1 of 10" blind estimate true. I'd love to be proven wrong, because 1 of 10 is an abysmal number to look at and hold true to my heart, but I'm not going to drop that perception until something makes me feel otherwise.

Much of that could just be because of where I live. Women are really selfish around here, and they don't even acknowledge it. Lots of entitlement flying around because someone told them they are special. Of course that means they deserve preferential treatment.
 

Phasmal

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Signa said:
Well, then, you've no right to be `convinced girls aren't gamers.`
We may not be as many, but there's no way I'm any less of a gamer because I'm a woman.

There are actually quite a few women on here.
Just cause there are more dudes doesn't make us less than gamers.

And generalising the women around you isn't a good thing to do.
 

Signa

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Phasmal said:
Well, then, you've no right to be `convinced girls aren't gamers.`
We may not be as many, but there's no way I'm any less of a gamer because I'm a woman.

WHOA WHOA WHOA!!!

I NEVER meant to imply that. AT ALL. The girls that I do know as gamers are every bit my equal as a gamer. It's just really hard to find a girl that enjoys it even half as much as I.

EDIT: Now I'm upset that you thought that's what I meant. If you're a gamer, you're a gamer. The only point I made to confuse that is if you play a ton of Bejeweled and nothing else the label "gamer" might not apply to you. Just enjoying a small part of a larger medium doesn't earn you the title of that medium's aficionado.