Vudu said:
It all comes down to developer intent, right?
In a perfect vacuum, yes.
The problem is, this is the real world and the real world is messy. People want what they want and it's not limited to the wimminz or the negroes or the homer sexuals wanting to raid the treehouse and whatnot. It's also the straight white brown haired teens who are supposedly the bread and butter. If creative intent is the end-all, then there is almost nothing to discuss in gaming. Of course, eve nthat assumes no publisher interference, no focus groups, no compromises by developers. These things happen all the time, however. It's only when it's done for women/people of colour/gays that it's really widely complained about. Or if EA does it, but EA could cure cancer and the internet would be ablaze with complaints that EA hates doctors.
I think most can agree that no one can force a creator to cater to their needs.
Except publishers, patrons, employers....I think you get the point. I mean, the ideal that creators should freely create is nice, but it belies a world where money is needed and a reality where even the likes of da Vinci and Shakespeare sold themselves. And when you create a product for commercial consumption, that opens a new can of worms.
Twilight was written for young women who were into that sort of thing.
That didn't stop the male audience from BAWWWWWWWWWING about it being the worst thing since the atom bomb. Again, this was seen as okey dokey by the general public, too. When men cry that they're not being catered to, it's no big deal. When women cry that they're not being catered to, it's demanding special privileges. Right now, people are lamenting that one of the biggest movies of 2013 was not made with male audiences in mind and the depths of Hell this will take cinema to. Why, since Catching Fire came out, we've had almost half a dozen major movies released not primarily targeting boys or men.
There weren't petitions about how the author didn't cater to a male audience because men knew that this book wasn't FOR them (even though they are free to enjoy it if it's their thing).
Actually, you can find a bunch of petitions on various topics from making it less of a chick flick to banning it outright. How much is serious and how much is just stupid people on the internet being stupid? I don't know and I don't really care. I looked it up to see if you were right. You're not.
Of course, the other issue at hand here is that Twilight is still a minority. Books "for girls" in the mainstream are considered niche, same with movies. The idea of a blockbuster targeting "not men" is astonishing. If you flipped the roles, you might see more "petitions." In fact, all you need to do is come up with a couple of big (games/movies/whatever) catered to girls to see the boys lose their heads.
I feel that, since sexism in games is becoming such a hot topic, this SHOULD be a necessary step. Why is it that we don't just ask ahead of time? Why do we let that area of understanding remain ambiguous and grey and leave those hoping for the best utterly disappointed?
So, say 80% of devs say they're making games for straight white boys between 13 and 18. Or 90. Or 95. Do you think women, especially women who like games, will just say "oh, okay, fair enough" and move on?
I think you may have missed the major reason this shit comes up.
I'd love to hear some thoughts.
Me too, but my brain scanner is broken.
Phasmal said:
If almost all books were aimed at women, you would have a point.
If women could have nice things without men throwing a fit, he'd also have a point. Not quite the same point, but a point no less.
I'd even accept it if makle and female responses were met with some sort of parity (even though there's a disparity in media representation). Alas, women talking about this get ridiculed, While men are free to dog on "women's media" and treat the exceptions to the usual "boy's club" rule as the end of literature/film/civilisation. Why? Because we're supposed to care about what men think.
Vudu said:
I'm fine with not being catered to.
A shame you pitched an argument in which you indicated the people who are being catered to behave differently. At this point, whether you are fine with being catered to no longer matters. And I'm not even sure where the context came from in this case.
But I judge games on an individual level.
By that logic, if all games excluded you, would you be fine with it because you're judging each game on an individual level?
Well, I suppose at least the honesty from the gaming industry would be refreshing....