Devil's Advocate: Media Edition

Recommended Videos
Sep 24, 2008
2,461
0
0
This thread is just about giving ideas that are contrary to commonly held beliefs. Nothing really too serious. Just present how you view things differently.

Something that have been a thorn in my side for the longest period of time. The idea that Goku is a bad person [https://www.google.com/search?client=avast&q=Goku+is+a+bad+person]. A lot of people cite his bad parenting, his self centered ways, and his lust for fighting above all else as reasons why he's a bad person. I think they are completely wrong.

I think the entire reality around Goku are bad people, and they try to spin it onto Goku.

A few things to get in order. First, He has had a Brain Injury that was severe enough to change his personality [https://screenrant.com/dragon-ball-goku-body-secrets-powers-abilities-facts/] (scroll to number 1). Two, The Flying Nimbus Cloud [http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Flying_Nimbus]. You literally can not ride it if you don't have a pure heart. And for those who think that since he grew up, he might have become a jerk... Number three: The Spirit Bomb [http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit_Bomb]. An attack that can only be used by someone with a Pure Heart. Which also answers the question why no one else uses the technique.

After his Adoptive Grandfather dies, the next person he meets is Bulma... a woman who tries to shoot him, steal his only keepsake of his Grandfather (the only person who he loved and took care of him out of the kindness of his heart), and then manipulates Goku into coming along to get the dragon balls because she knew she couldn't take it away from him.

From that point on, everyone Goku meets tries to kill him or trick him... or have him fight people who have no issue killing him for their own benefit. The only person that takes him in for any amount of time is Master Roshi. Master Roshi, however, took this as a chance to get a young boy to bring him a hot woman to ogle.

No one tries to teach Goku about the world. About education. I don't even rightly know how he knows how to read. No one actually teaches him about the world around him, they just yell at him when he doesn't know what they had to learn themselves with families and people who cared about them. People only seem to care about him when they need saving.

Goku is a bad father? He doesn't know what family is really. He doesn't even know what a healthy relationship is. Everyone he is friends with has tried to either kill him or use him. There is no exception to this. Even Trunks took out his sword and tested him to see if he could trust the fate of the world on his shoulders.

And Let's be real, if Goku wasn't as strong as Trunks needed him to be, he would have cut Goku up.

Sure, people like Goku. But no one cares about Goku. In terms of his actual well being. People yell that he should be a better father. We're talking about the boy who thought Marriage was a type of food, and that didn't stop his eventual wife from saying "...Oh shit, cut my weird little girl dreams, this boy needs far more help than I thought".

Also, that doesn't stop her from yelling at him to get a job. Doing what? He was trained for what? A Lawyer? A Doctor? A police officer? No one taught him how to be a human, yet everyone gets on his case that he's not like us.

That's the entire world failing Goku. Not the other way around.

Anyway, that's my Devil's Advocate. You got any?
 

Dirty Hipsters

This is how we praise the sun!
Legacy
Feb 7, 2011
8,802
3,383
118
Country
'Merica
Gender
3 children in a trench coat
Goku isn't a bad person. Goku is mentally challenged, and the only thing that he's good at is fighting because he is literally built for that purpose. You can't really fault the guy for wanting to do the one thing that he's good at.

Edit: I'm also fairly sure Chi-Chi raped him, which would explain why he's afraid of her.
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Sep 16, 2014
8,580
7,215
118
Country
United States
Goblin Slayer! encapsulates most everything wrong with the current animation/manga/light novel industry. It's Vampire Hunter D with worse characters, a lack of world building, a fundamental misunderstanding as to why guilds exist, and is somehow more gratuitous then, well, Vampire Hunter D.

The only thing that could make it worse is if the eponymous Slayer was some schmuck who was pulled into that world from the "real" world.
 

Hawki

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 4, 2014
9,651
2,179
118
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
ObsidianJones said:
This thread is just about giving ideas that are contrary to commonly held beliefs. Nothing really too serious. Just present how you view things differently.
Technically that's different from Devil's Advocate. DA is more advocating for a position you don't agree with, but can at least defend.

Anyway, there's far too many examples where I fall outside the majority to discuss, so I'll just wait and see if anyone says anything here I can strongly agree/disagree with.
 

Drathnoxis

I love the smell of card games in the morning
Legacy
Sep 23, 2010
6,023
2,235
118
Just off-screen
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Pretty sure Roshi taught Goku to read and do math when he trained him. Basic education was part of their training, and I'm fairly sure that wasn't anime only.
 

Kyrian007

Nemo saltat sobrius
Legacy
Mar 9, 2010
2,658
755
118
Kansas
Country
U.S.A.
Gender
Male
Handsome Jack is the hero and the Vault Hunters are the villains. See, most people see either that or the opposite as the case. And I think differently. I think that Jack and the Vault Hunters are all power mad, violence obsessed, assassins and murderers; just like all of the rest of the bandits and such on Pandora. The actual protagonists of the story, I think are the Atlas and Dahl Corporations. Yes they were making weapons out of found alien artifacts... but at some point both withdrew from Pandora. Each leaving behind significant amounts of valuable equipment and manpower. Had they just extracted everything they could and then left their workers and soldiers to die... or had they discovered how powerful the alien artifacts were and decided that leaving and covering everything up might just be better for the rest of the galaxy? I think its possible that Jack and the Vault Hunters are fighting over the power that could prove to be the end for the human race... and its Atlas and Dahl that are trying to stop that power from emerging and spreading in order to save the galaxy and all of its paying customer inhabitants.
 

Specter Von Baren

Annoying Green Gadfly
Legacy
Aug 25, 2013
5,637
2,859
118
I don't know, send help!
Country
USA
Gender
Cuttlefish
altnameJag said:
Goblin Slayer! encapsulates most everything wrong with the current animation/manga/light novel industry. It's Vampire Hunter D with worse characters, a lack of world building, a fundamental misunderstanding as to why guilds exist, and is somehow more gratuitous then, well, Vampire Hunter D.

The only thing that could make it worse is if the eponymous Slayer was some schmuck who was pulled into that world from the "real" world.
...... Did you even read the thread title? I thought most people thought this? (Admittedly I know very little about the series myself)
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

New member
Aug 2, 2015
7,915
0
0
Deadpool ruined Superheroes. Because of him Superheroes will never be taken seriously and will forever be stuck as always being seen as silly thus it must act silly and only silly. Because of Deadpool we got an obnoxious amount of jokes and fourth wall breaking references in every Superhero thing ever and whatever attempts at actual seriousness they try to tell their story is ruined by a quick gag that completely ruins the tension and tone.
 

BrawlMan

Lover of beat'em ups.
Legacy
Mar 10, 2016
31,484
13,014
118
Detroit, Michigan
Country
United States of America
Gender
Male
Samtemdo8 said:
Deadpool ruined Superheroes. Because of him Superheroes will never be taken seriously and will forever be stuck as always being seen as silly thus it must act silly and only silly. Because of Deadpool we got an obnoxious amount of jokes and fourth wall breaking references in every Superhero thing ever and whatever attempts at actual seriousness they try to tell their story is ruined by a quick gag that completely ruins the tension and tone.
Deadpool did not ruin crap. There was comedy in superhero movies long before he got his own adaption. Now while he does have some influence on certain movies, there will always be comedic moments and those films regardless of his movies succeeded or not. Hell, Marvel still has comedic moments in their movies.
 

Chimpzy_v1legacy

Warning! Contains bananas!
Jun 21, 2009
4,789
1
0
CoCage said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Deadpool ruined Superheroes. Because of him Superheroes will never be taken seriously and will forever be stuck as always being seen as silly thus it must act silly and only silly. Because of Deadpool we got an obnoxious amount of jokes and fourth wall breaking references in every Superhero thing ever and whatever attempts at actual seriousness they try to tell their story is ruined by a quick gag that completely ruins the tension and tone.
Deadpool did not ruin crap. There was comedy in superhero movies long before he got his own adaption. Now while he does have some influence on certain movies, there will always be comedic moments and those films regardless of his movies succeeded or not. Hell, Marvel still has comedic moments in their movies.
It's an ok reply, but I'd have Devil's Advocated it up a lot more. Kind of like this:

Ok, so Deadpool was created in 1991 by Rob Liefeld because he wanted his own Wolverine or Spider-Man. This original Deadpool turned out a typical 90's edgy villain, while also basically a copy of DC's Deathstroke because Liefeld seemingly can't create an original character.

Then Deadpool got his own series in 1997, helmed by Joe Kelly, who turned him into a parody of the gritty anti-heroes that were so in vogue at the time. That anti-hero bit mostly came to pass because a decade earlier writers like Alan Moore and Frank Miller created a few dark and violent comics that deconstructed the superhero genre. These comics enjoyed quite a bit of commercial and critical success. Other writers, like Liefeld, saw this and wanted their own slice of that pie. So they made their own versions, but most completely missed the point, thinking just dark and violent would be enough. Thus the grimdark 90's anti-hero was born. The kind Deadpool parodied, quite succesfully, before he was himself flanderized into "lulz, so random!".

Deadpool exists because of events that came before. He's a symptom, not a cause. He didn't ruin comics.

Watchmen, V for Vendetta and The Dark Knight Returns did.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

New member
Aug 2, 2015
7,915
0
0
CoCage said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Deadpool ruined Superheroes. Because of him Superheroes will never be taken seriously and will forever be stuck as always being seen as silly thus it must act silly and only silly. Because of Deadpool we got an obnoxious amount of jokes and fourth wall breaking references in every Superhero thing ever and whatever attempts at actual seriousness they try to tell their story is ruined by a quick gag that completely ruins the tension and tone.
Deadpool did not ruin crap. There was comedy in superhero movies long before he got his own adaption. Now while he does have some influence on certain movies, there will always be comedic moments and those films regardless of his movies succeeded or not. Hell, Marvel still has comedic moments in their movies.
No this comedy is different now compared to the comedy we had back then.
 

BrawlMan

Lover of beat'em ups.
Legacy
Mar 10, 2016
31,484
13,014
118
Detroit, Michigan
Country
United States of America
Gender
Male
Samtemdo8 said:
CoCage said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Deadpool ruined Superheroes. Because of him Superheroes will never be taken seriously and will forever be stuck as always being seen as silly thus it must act silly and only silly. Because of Deadpool we got an obnoxious amount of jokes and fourth wall breaking references in every Superhero thing ever and whatever attempts at actual seriousness they try to tell their story is ruined by a quick gag that completely ruins the tension and tone.
Deadpool did not ruin crap. There was comedy in superhero movies long before he got his own adaption. Now while he does have some influence on certain movies, there will always be comedic moments and those films regardless of his movies succeeded or not. Hell, Marvel still has comedic moments in their movies.
No this comedy is different now compared to the comedy we had back then.
Dude, that's life. Sometimes writing styles change for the worse or better. Comedy in superheroes movies are going to change at some point. Deadpool or no Deadpool.
 

twistedmic

Elite Member
Legacy
Sep 8, 2009
2,542
210
68
I don't know how contrary this opinion is but, I think that the MCU has done more harm to the movie industry (superhero movies in particular) than good, or at the very least has changed the industry in a negative way.
It seems to me that before the MCU started if a movie made at least twice it's budget back it was considered a success and most movies were their own contained stories that had a clear beginning, middle and end and the occasional mild sequel hook (think 'Bond Will Return' or the Joker card scene in Batman Begins. But following the MCU a lot of movies strike me as half-finished stories and setups for further sequels. And they have to make an obscene amount of money globally to even be considered an adequate film.
Plus there's the issue that any movie that doesn't follow the MCU pattern of being light-hearted and filled with sarcastic and snarky quips being thrown out by every character it's immediately lambasted as being 'grimdark' and subsequently savaged by movie critics.
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
20,519
5,335
118
It kinda makes sense for there to be racism and racial profiling in Zootropolis, seeing as just a few thousand years ago one race lived off eating the other. And then there's the fact that certain species are 100 times weaker/stronger than other species. Sure, maybe for a rabbit you can make an exception to join the police force, but what if a mouse wants to join or one of those sloths?

And while were at it, it makes sense in the X-Men universe too.

Staying with superheroes, the romance between Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy doesn't work. Harley Quinn is too infatuated with the Joker to ever care about anyone else. If she stop caring about Joker she'd stop being Harley Quinn. And Poison Ivy hates and looks down on humans, so I doubt she'd ever get physically involved with one. They work great as a criminal duo, but lovers.. no.
Samtemdo8 said:
Deadpool ruined Superheroes. Because of him Superheroes will never be taken seriously and will forever be stuck as always being seen as silly thus it must act silly and only silly. Because of Deadpool we got an obnoxious amount of jokes and fourth wall breaking references in every Superhero thing ever and whatever attempts at actual seriousness they try to tell their story is ruined by a quick gag that completely ruins the tension and tone.
Uuuhm, Spider-Man says hello.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

New member
Aug 2, 2015
7,915
0
0
Casual Shinji said:
It kinda makes sense for there to be racism and racial profiling in Zootropolis, seeing as just a few thousand years ago one race lived off eating the other. And then there's the fact that certain species are 100 times weaker/stronger than other species. Sure, maybe for a rabbit you can make an exception to join the police force, but what if a mouse wants to join or one of those sloths?

And while were at it, it makes sense in the X-Men universe too.

Staying with superheroes, the romance between Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy doesn't work. Harley Quinn is too infatuated with the Joker to ever care about anyone else. If she stop caring about Joker she'd stop being Harley Quinn. And Poison Ivy hates and looks down on humans, so I doubt she'd ever get physically involved with one. They work great as a criminal duo, but lovers.. no.
Samtemdo8 said:
Deadpool ruined Superheroes. Because of him Superheroes will never be taken seriously and will forever be stuck as always being seen as silly thus it must act silly and only silly. Because of Deadpool we got an obnoxious amount of jokes and fourth wall breaking references in every Superhero thing ever and whatever attempts at actual seriousness they try to tell their story is ruined by a quick gag that completely ruins the tension and tone.
Uuuhm, Spider-Man says hello.
And I thank Raimi for not making Peter into a complete Clown of a person.

Seriously though why does he have the moniker of "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility?" when time after time he has proven to be the most irresponsible superhero ever?

I vote DC settles Marvel in court to buy the rights of the moniker so they can apply it to Superman.
 

PsychedelicDiamond

Wild at Heart and weird on top
Legacy
Jan 30, 2011
2,197
1,102
118
Well, here's some of my pet unpopular opinions. I can probably come up with more if I think about it long enough.

Star Wars is still good (And the prequels were also mostly fine)
Alien is still good
Batman v Superman was the best superhero movie ever made
Michael Bay is one of the best visual directors currently working and there's some undeniable artistic merit to what he does
The Marvel Cinematic Universe has never produced anything particularly good and at least some of the earlier movies had obvious conservative subtext
Christopher Nolan is actually not very talented
Joss Whedon is a very hit and miss writer and a godawful director
Shattered Memories is secretly the second best Silent Hill game (and really should have gotten a PC port at some point)
The television series as an artistic medium peaked in the late 60s with The Prisoner and still hasn't caught up with it.
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
20,519
5,335
118
Samtemdo8 said:
And I thank Raimi for not making Peter into a complete Clown of a person.

Seriously though why does he have the moniker of "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility?" when time after time he has proven to be the most irresponsible superhero ever?

I vote DC settles Marvel in court to buy the rights of the moniker so they can apply it to Superman.
How is he the most irresponsible superhero? His whole gimmick is that he constantly sacrifices personal happiness for the greater good. If he was actually irresponsible he never would've donned the costume and just kept on making money beating the shit out of wrestlers.


But anyway, Spider-Man did the whole wisecracking super hero before Deadpool. And even if it didn't, what exactly did Deadpool influence? For the longest time Deadpool was considered too obscure to even put on film, and when it finally did happen (correctly) all it really did was pave the way for an R-rated Wolverine movie. That's it. At best it's prompted DC to (unfortunately) turn Harley Quinn into their own Deadpool. Like, point me to any other super hero (movie) clearly influenced by Deadpool.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

New member
Aug 2, 2015
7,915
0
0
Casual Shinji said:
Samtemdo8 said:
And I thank Raimi for not making Peter into a complete Clown of a person.

Seriously though why does he have the moniker of "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility?" when time after time he has proven to be the most irresponsible superhero ever?

I vote DC settles Marvel in court to buy the rights of the moniker so they can apply it to Superman.
How is he the most irresponsible superhero?
Don't ask me, I am just taking Linkara's word for it in his One More Day review.

Yeah, its amazing how much long held beliefs can get shattered when someone actually tells me what is actually the opposite.

Look I just feel like mabye I am just getting too old for Superheroes now that I think back. They all had silly shit. Superman the Animated Series had fucking Mxyzptlk in all his goofyness. Teen Titans in all its anime whackyness.

No wonder I only remember the actually serious, amazing, and adult episodes from those shows like Metallo in Superman and Red X/Trigon episodes in Teen Titans.

And no wonder I moved on to things like V for Vendetta, Watchmen, and Vertigo comics at one point in time.
 

CrazyGirl17

I am a banana!
Sep 11, 2009
5,141
0
0
Well...

I still think Spider-Man 2, while not a bad film, is overrated.

I never had a problem with 4Kids' anime dubs. I can see why people dislike them, but I have a better tolerance for dubs than some people. Plus, their take on the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is my favorite take on the franchise (up until a certain point, anyway).

That's all I got so far...
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
20,519
5,335
118
Samtemdo8 said:
Casual Shinji said:
How is he the most irresponsible superhero?
Don't ask me, I am just taking Linkara's word for it in his One More Day review.

Yeah, its amazing how much long held beliefs can get shattered when someone actually tells me what is actually the opposite.
So because somebody said so you're echoing it? You just take someone's word on it without actually figuring out whether you think it's true..? You claim something, but then when I ask how or why you say 'Don't ask me, some guy said it.' -- Please tell how I'm suppose to have a genuine discussion with you.