Devil's Advocates or Trolling?

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Basement Cat

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Jul 26, 2012
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Knowing a poster's intent is can be difficult.

Not knowing whether another poster is being sarcastic, is playing Devil's Advocate, or is deliberately seeking to goad others leads to tempers flaring and blood pressure soaring all the time on these forums. On my last thread NEWS: Girl, 9, Gives Birth in Mexico [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.400478-NEWS-Girl-9-Gives-Birth-in-Mexico] several Escapists made posts commenting that the not only does the minimal age of consent vary from country to country and culture to culture but that it can be difficult if not impossible to deduce a young girl's age sometimes.

Both of these observations are certainly true.

In parts of India, for example, child brides are notoriously common (even though their federal laws prohibit such things local ancient customs lead to such laws being routinely ignored).

It is also a proven scientific fact that some of the growth hormones given to cattle serve as an analog to the natural growth hormones that trigger the onset of puberty in girls which has resulted over the last 25 years or so in preteen and early teen girls developing breasts and generally maturing much earlier than girls just 40 years ago.[footnote]It's also a bad thing because the early onset of puberty slightly stunts their overall growth, but I digress.[/footnote]

And then there were the comments that ran along the lines of "So a child got raped? It happens everywhere. Why should I care about it?"

I bit my tongue and didn't argue. I certainly did NOT get the feeling that any of the posters were advocating pedophilia. Other posters stated that they were perturbed at some of the comments, but I recognized that the ones commenting about cultural differences, etc, DID have valid points. I didn't like the facts that they were pointing out, and I didn't believe that they were valid in this case, but I recognized that "Devil's Advocates" are generally needed.

So I bit my tongue. I did believe that some of the posters were trolling for the purpose of inciting others. But I bit my tongue.

Rape, incest, gun rights, the Holocaust, bestiality (for goodness sake), etc etc...

Every time a thread comes up that involves sensitive subjects that most people find abhorrent there are always posters jumping in and defending the matter--sometimes taking the argument to the extreme, even to the point of pouncing on Escapists who say--for example--that they were raped and object to the term being "degraded" in jokes like that comedian (I've forgotten his name) who joked at a show that a woman in the audience who'd objected to his "rape jokes" should "be raped by 5 men right now".

Topic of discussion:

(1) Do you ever find yourself acting as the Devil's Advocate out of an attempt to try to balance in discussions?

(2) Do you bite your tongue when you see posts like I've mentioned?
 

Loonyyy

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Jul 10, 2009
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I recall reading that the hormone milk thing was a myth, and the earlier onset of puberty was actually caused by increase in fat intake, and general better living. But, that's a digression.

OT: I rarely play the devil's advocate. I've rarely the time, and never on the internet. In person, I'll use a bit of snark and maybe have a go, but there at least it's easy to understand. On the internet, it's already confusing enough, without me playing disingenuous games with noble intentions, amidst others playing similar ones for poor intentions.

But the role of a Devil's Advocate is never really to "Balance out" discussion. That would just be manufacturing debate. The idea is that one's meant to be suggesting notions counter to what the group holds, to aid them in better constructing their own positions. Just arguing for the other side alone doesn't do this.

When I read posts like that, I bite my tongue for the first couple at least. Especially when I think the poster is trolling "Who cares that all these people are dead" type responses.
 

Yuno Gasai

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Nov 6, 2010
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I've found that with most discussions online, playing devil's advocate results in a lot more aggro and stress than it would 'in real life'. As such, to avoid the hassle, I typically don't bother. I may throw in one or two statements to try and encourage people to think about the other side of things of their own volition, but that's about it.

If I see a post like the ones you've mentioned, I tend to ignore them. Some people desire to play devil's advocate, others desire a reaction. If I can't determine which angle they're going for, I'll bite my tongue. If they're playing devil's advocate and I have something worthwhile to contribute, then I'll respond.
 

Basement Cat

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Jul 26, 2012
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Loonyyy said:
I recall reading that the hormone milk thing was a myth, and the earlier onset of puberty was actually caused by increase in fat intake, and general better living. But, that's a digression.
The research results I'm referring to identified some proteins in the meat that acted as analogs to girls' growth hormones. I hadn't heard about the milk thing.
 

Darken12

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Apr 16, 2011
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I play Devil's Advocate only when I morally agree with the argument I'm about to pose. If everyone is saying "feminism is awesome, yay!" then the most I can say to play Devil's Advocate is "Well, let's not get carried away too much, let's be wary of the mob effect, let's try to be more understanding..." and so on. In general, I automatically play Devil's Advocate because my default ethical stance is to criticise the privileged majorities, and their kneejerk reaction is to do everything it takes to invalidate the criticism, because Thor forbid we are less than perfect beings that have to actually work to make the world a better place.
 

Realitycrash

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I often play Devil's Advocate in the R&P simply to test the strength of peoples arguments and see if they hold up logically. In many situations I agree with a position, but I still attack a persons arguments for said position, simply because they are poor arguments.
 

SweetShark

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Jan 9, 2012
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1.
No, if it is a very serious matter like the rape that you mentioned I don't trying to "balance" the flow of a discussion just for the heck of it.
I always trying to say my honest opinion most of the times.
Also I have some "strange" habits so I am not saying I am an saint, but I am not trying to be an asshole to the others for their personal habit, because I am also a black sheep for the rest of the world...

2.
Honestly, I heared a more terrifing story than this.
I don't remember when it was, but in India a old man killed her grandaughter and use her blood to his soils to have better crops. Reason? I think this person was a fanatic of a specific god they have in India, but I am not sure.....
 

Kae

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Copper you have no idea how many things I wanted to say to the people in that thread, I was hoping it would get sunk or locked, but yeah I bite my tongue, no point arguing with people on the Internet, most of them seem to be happy in their ignorance and it would have just been a waste of my time and energy.
[sup][sup]I did rant about that thread somewhere else though -_-'[/sup][/sup]

But basically:
1. NO, because I don't actually like arguing on the Internet.
2. Yes, because of that same reason.
I have no idea why I'm on a discussion board.
 

thesilentman

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Jun 14, 2012
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1) If it's something that I have an interest in. I know my shit when it comes to software, so I'll happily oblige to show how one person is wrong.

2) I bite my tongue whenever I see someone just being an idiot. Otherwise, I'll play Devil's Advocate with them to find out what their views are.
 

Bellvedere

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I often take an opposing position in arguments (regardless on my own views but only if I can think of a reasonable argument for the opposition) just to see where it goes. People (all people) make up their mind about an issue then come up with arguments as to why they hold that position rather chose to take a position based on the arguments. Therefore taking an opposing position is good for both myself and the other person in understanding our chosen view points.

This is mostly something that I do in real life though. It's worth doing it online only if you're reasonably sure that the person making the opposing argument is genuinely interested in a proper debate, otherwise take it as a comment and move on. In real life I'd probably act on the principle of charity and make a proper counter argument, online though there's just so many people commenting, the possibility the person your arguing with won't even look at their post again and of course trolls, so that's it's not really worth your time.
 

tippy2k2

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I've done it once or twice online. However, I think there is one key thing I do that a lot of others don't...

I come out and state that I'm playing Devil's Advocate. It's rare because usually there is SOMEONE on the board with a different opinion but if there's absolutely no resistance and I know of counter-arguments, I will step in for funsy.

I have, however, never trolled. Seems like a pointless waste of time for everyone involved. If I see someone who I believe to be trolling, I will just cease contact with them or call them out if it's questionable.

For example: Zeel; everyone's favorite Mass Effect hater. I told him that if he wasn't going to talk to me with some respect, I was going to cease contact. He talked to me with respect and we had a nice conversation. Others who don't get ignored.
 

Lonewolfm16

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I actually really like playing devils advocate. I tend to like debate (I am even on the presidency of my school's debate club as a result), and I see it as a way to test the strength of your beliefs. Devil's advocates can make people re-think commonly accepted positions and ask if their arguments are really valid and why they believe what they believe. I see it as a enormously good thing. Still I prefer to take my own side on arguments, so most of my devil's advocating will come from sniping poor arguments from people I agree with, then clarifying that I am not actually against them if they take me to be on the opposite side, and merely dislike one of their arguements.
 

Basement Cat

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Kaleion said:
Copper you have no idea how many things I wanted to say to the people in that thread, I was hoping it would get sunk or locked, but yeah I bite my tongue, no point arguing with people on the Internet, most of them seem to be happy in their ignorance and it would have just been a waste of my time and energy.
[sup][sup]I did rant about that thread somewhere else though -_-'[/sup][/sup]

But basically:
1. NO, because I don't actually like arguing on the Internet.
2. Yes, because of that same reason.
I have no idea why I'm on a discussion board.
I knew this would get under your skin which was why I included the point that we have posters (a poster?) from Mexico who'd be ticked at the whole matter.

As for why you're here--it's because you're as much a anti-social misanthropist destined to fall into the Basement as the rest of us, of course! :D

All Hail Our True Leader Basement Cat!!!

 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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1) I kind of play Devil's Advocate sometimes. Usually in a light hearted and questioning manner. I enjoy debating and poking holes in people's arguments. I don't do it in the kind of threads you're talking about though. I generally stay out of them or bail as soon as it inevitably starts to get ugly.

2) Yup. If nothing else, I simply don't have the time to jump on every objectionable or downright retarded thing I see written on the internet.
 

Crazy

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I have, through my own exciting experience, learned that playing Devil's Advocate (especially) on this site will most certainly draw you out as a troll. The line between an Advocate and a troll is very transparent, and dancing on that line recklessly could land you in a position you never thought would happen. Members here can be... oh what's the word... rather overzealous when posting. Stubborn down to their fingertips, if you will. Plenty of them want to play the white knight of the forum, to look funny or smart. In actuality, sometimes they are misunderstanding things, which could play a part in the "Advocate or Troll" question.

Quick Edit: I believe members here are very argumentative, and in turn they tend to view topics as an argument that they must "win".
 

Ljs1121

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I don't think I could ever do Devil's Advocate. It would be really hard for me to defend something I don't agree with for any reason.
 

Therumancer

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I think there is a third catagory here, and that it's simply that not everyone agrees with the prevailing sentiments. These forums tend to be extremely liberal especially when it comes to social and personal issues, human rights and what they involve, and other assorted topics. A point of view that only accounts for about 50% of the population of the US which is polarized on things like that, and represents a fair lower percentage of global sentiment overall despite beliefs (most people outside of the US and it's cultural cousins can't even be defined in the same political and social terms). To a lot of people in a generally closed enviroment like this one there is a perception that anyone representing another side must be a troll, or playing devil's advocate, because nobody could possibly think differantly, Especially seeing as there seems to be some kind of perception that the left wing represents some kind of supermajority in the US when it isn't even close.

I didn't get involved in this discussion, but my basic point of view is that Mexico is messed up, I hear about crazy crap coming from our neighbor all the time, and we've had constant blood and strife around the borders with our neighbr not to mention tons of problems with both legal and illegal immigrants, to the point where when it comes to Mexico my primary concern is usually how to get their people out of the US, secure our borders better, and other touchier issues like repealing the citizenship of people who have failed to assimilate properly into American society... largely because of incidents like schools banning the display of The American Flag... in America... to avoid upsetting Mexican immigrants during Cinco Del Mayo. My attitude being the rather anti-liberal sentiment that if you can't stand the US flag flying in The US, at any time, you don't belong here. If your a citizen who prioritizes the holidays and traditions of your previous country and culture over the one that you now belong to and are living in, then you don't belong here and should go back... etc... sentiments many people here find shocking.

Someone brings up shocking tales of south of the border, like a 9 year old being pregnant, my basic attitude is "so what, it's Mexico, it's totally F@cked up, nowadays I expect that kind of crap, and it's exactly the kind of reason I want to keep Mexico as isolated from the US as possible". To be honest that's bloody tame compared to some of the crap I hear, mostly having to do with cartel wars and organized crime and such.

The problems there are so deep that its not like anyone can do anything about it. Mexico needs to get over these problems on it's own. It's not like the US could invade, conquer, and civilize the entire region. An outside force can't solve problems at the root of things like this (as I've said in connection to The Middle East before), people have to change on their own. The most we can do is damage control towards ourselves, and removing or limiting any threat presented if there happens to be one.

It's not nice, it's not trolling, and it's not me playing Devil's advocate, I'm simply a very America-focused, American, who tends to largely look at the negative aspects of our relationship with Mexico and what to do about it. It's not like we can change Mexico (as I said above) or save everyone, so really a "that's messed up" is the most your likely to get from me in a case like this, it's not like there the US can help everyone, or if we don't have enough problems in the US. Your likely to get more empathy from me about what we should do if say a 9 year old got knocked up that way in the US and made the news, because that's something we have more say on and control over, and there aren't the whole cultural/border tensions aspect of the thing involved that make me dismiss it as simply another minor problem coming from a much bigger problem (so to speak).

The point I'm getting at here is that sometimes you wind up running into people who simply have a totally differant point of view on things, even if it's not nessicarly something you agree with or want to hear. What I think on political subjects very rarely gets much in the way of popular agreement on this site, but that's not because I'm a troll, or being contrary for the sake of an academic point. I just think a bit differant, and wound up with some differant values and priorities, and opinions on how things should be done and why.
 

uchytjes

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I actually actively practice being the devil's advocate. I don't troll at all (at least intentionally) I am genuinely interested in why people say the things they do and challenge them on their positions. But, as in almost any social situation I'm involved in, they have to take the bait and run with it. I will not pursue people asking them to "REPLY TO ME BECAUSE... BECAUSE."

Also, I don't usually reply to anyone unless they make a INCREDIBLY significant mistake. If they do it on accident and correct themselves, they are good people. If they do it on accident and don't correct themselves, they are ignorant. If they do it on purpose and try to get a rise out of me, they are trolls.