Did MMOs ruin it for me?

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

I recently purchased my first console in the last 6 years, an XBox 360 to experience all the rantings and ravings of games like Dragon Age: Origins and Elder Scrolls IV. Digitally purchased KOTOR 1 and 2 and I have to say... I just can't seem to really get into these game. I can't find any love for them or any desire to keep on playing them.

Thats because no matter how people here may disagree with me, western rpgs just aren't very good. Or at least they aren't the gods gift to role playing games that people here seem to think they are.

I played 1-6 of final fantasy and those where great games. They had good story, good writing, but unlike most western RPGs they also got to be lighthearted and silly. I hate how seriously games like Mass Effect or Dragon Age take themselves most of the time.

Because at the same time the Japanese we're doing this

with its art....


... the West was doing this

with its art o.o

...No that's actually a shitty explanation. And I do disagree with you, because Western RPGS include Planescape: Torment (And White Wolf pnp games) and Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines. And even if all Western RPGs sucked barring those two games, Western RPGs would still be better given the existence of Planescape: Torment.

That and there's other good Western RPGs ...

And I have yet to play a game a JRPG (VG or pnp) as cool as Planescape: Torment, or a White Wolf pnp game (Go W:TF, best nwod setting) ^_^

Addendum:

I hope they make a Werewolf: the Forsaken video game sometime <.<

 

[Hagi]

I think what has most people excited about Bioware games is that they're a step in the direction they want games to be going.

Sure, you usually have the choice between "Donate all your money to orphanage.", "Make silly joke about orphanage and leave." and "Eat all the babies inside the orphanage." but it does open this window to the future where people can imagine having more and tougher choices.

And sure, the romances often get awkward and the way sex is handled could use some great improvement but it does make people think that things such as love and lust can be handled by video games in a meaningful manner, even if we're not quite there yet.

I think that the combination of Bioware producing good games (they're not great but compared to other things out they are good) and having the potential clearly there of being much more is what makes people excited about it. And the recent news that they may be looking outside of fantasy and sci-fi after the Dragon Age, Mass Effect and SWToR games are fully out and released has me hopeful. Of course, Bioware isn't the only one going in this direction but they are one of the biggest ones.

 

[Vault101]

MMO's just arnt my thing

not much story

combat..most of them arnt action focused

grind grind girnd

 

[MmmFiber]

Don't worry OP, I've had the same thing happen. I just can't get into games that aren't MMOs. Portal 2 was the first game I've played to the end in quite some time. I can't seem to finish single player games. I'll play them for a while and have fun, but I don't feel a draw to play them afterwards. The only single player games I'm looking forward to are Diablo 2 and the next Persona game. Although, I might give Duke Nukem and Shadows of the Damned a look. Now, I just can't get very excited about or "into" a non-MMO. And the dumb thing is that I really want to be able throw myself into a good console rpg like I used to. Maybe we should start a support group?

P.S. I have no solution to this problem. Only frustration. Well, unless you count "wait until Guild Wars 2 and Star Wars: The Old Republic comes out" to be a solution. But that might make the problem worse, haha.

 

[tzimize]

You would need to more specific about what exactly you dislike in newer rpgs to really enable a discussion. Otherwise this thread is kind of pointless.

Agreed.

To OP: I've played since an early age to, and I have to say that MMOs DEFINATELY didnt ruin anything for me. If anything I love games MORE now when I see how much more fun they are than collecting 5 wolf pelts for the bazillionth time.

MMOs are not games. Not really. They are an interactive collectibility system. With chat. And I say that after playing WoW from release for 5-6 years and being in good raiding guilds.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Hmm, not sure exactly what you mean by spoiled it, maybe you got fed up with the RPG mechanics after playing MMOs for so long, or that you can't stand playing alone?

To me MMOs have done the opposite, because they have a normal game stretched out into eternity they make the singular moments piss poor at best, going back to single player RPGs is like a glass of ice water after a week in the desert.

 

[ThisIsSnake]

You got it backwards. Mass Effect for instance was an action game with good writing, very little "actual role playing" to be found there. The newest dragon age game is the same way. You pick paragon or renegade and get what boils down to one of 2 outcomes. Its a sad direction, but thats how it looks. It doesn't feel like your role playing in a western RPG, it feels like you are playing one of 2 different versions of the developers character, sometimes 3.

Honestly, I have yet to see any western game come close to the level of role playing in any of the Persona games. You had to build friendships up over time, got to really get to know a good number of characters who behaved like actual human beings, had to make real choices that could really impact gameplay. I mean you could screw up and say or do the wrong thing to make someone mad at you even though you had the best of intentions at the time they just took it the wrong way, you know like human relationships are? In dragon age 2 the correct option for flirting with NPCs HAD HEART LABELS ON THEM. That isn't role playing, thats just wrong.

I'm not sure how you're defining role playing, a game can be action/horror/platformer etc and still be a role playing game. In Mass Effect you play as Shepard, a character which you as a player define. It doesn't boil down to 1 or 2 outcomes though really, any combination of characters can die at the end of Mass Effect 2 depending on your actions. There are a lot of variables in Mass Effect 2 and what effect they'll have on the next game is still unknown.

Persona games on the whole I can't comment on, but I did complete Persona 3. I find it really strange that you refer to hating Dragon Age and Mass Effect for taking themselves too seriously when Persona 3 ramps this up to 11. The main characters emit industrial levels of angst with everyone you meet either having a terminal disease, dead parents, drug addict friends, no friends or outright attempting suicide multiple times. The animation for using Personas is shooting yourself in the head. As for defining the main character... he felt like a blank bishounen stereotype (granted shepard is practically a blank space marine stereotype).

The character development also seemed rather forced with those cheesy "I'm a better person speeches" followed by emotional goodbyes then CRASH! Card level up. The gameplay was solid, the characters were hit and miss for me, the feel, the music, the overall plot were excellent though.

 

[Friendshipandmagic]

Oh I agree with your fallout example, Bethesda makes great games for that kind of thing. There are even more choices than the ones you listed too, I keep finding new ways to approach that. I'm playing as good a character as I can and I just love that I have the freedom to say...wipe out the slaver town of paradise falls if I want to. Just to make my wasteland a better place, I see what I consider a stain on humanity and I can walk in and kill every slaver and free the remaining slaves. It might not change a whole lot, but I can do it. I hear good things about New Vegas, like what factions and quests you did and how you did them can shape they way history unfolds at the end. Those are choices.

Both of these choices are offered in the best way: Not in a dialogue menu.

I wanted to make sure to express how much I agree with this here as well. Thats my entire problem with Bioware games right now. All these "world changing choices" amount to little more than "pick the red text or the blue text" in the dialogue menus. I just find it really off-putting, personally.

Renegade, paragon, sarcastic guy, you pick one of the developers characters and thats all. It honestly feels sometimes like I may as well not have had the choice in the first place. If thats true, I don't see much of an upgrade from JRPGs right now. I could have just as little effective choice playing say, Tales of Vesperia, Final Fantasy Tactics and still be getting a great story with interesting characters.

Thats how I feel anyway. I'd rather just not pretend to be playing a role playing game and get back to the liner narrative driven games I do like. It all comes down to taste, but every time I see "Bioware makes the best RPGs evar!" I just want to cry. It seems like I'm harping on them and not WRPGs in general, I don't know. :/

Wish I was better at explaining this.

Glad we agree that WRPGs aren't all shit

I do admit, the plot of a linear game will always surpass those of games with a non-linear plot. This is due to the fact that sandbox games can't spend a lot of time on over-arching narrative because of how many outcomes they're forced to make. If a character is expendable, he can't betray the player later, y'know?

Though you may disagree, that is where I where I believe Bioware excels with the MAss Effect series. This is the one series where I was able to choose to let a sentient race go down fighting or brain wash them. Sadly, it was in a dialogue menu and very direct rather than the beloved and subtle examples from Fallout 3. Still, they have massive choices that effect over-arching narrative without ruining it. It truly becomes your narrative and when it all combines into one finished story that all pends on your choices, I think it'll be an epic I'll remember for years.

It's true that the characters feel cut-out if you choose the same choice over and over, but I have more enjoyment thinking how I'd respond, or what I'd do in the situation. While the role-playing nature seems minimal, if it all ties together in the third game, won't it seem to go from little to no effect (as in the seemingly useless Rachni choice or the politics choice) to a fantastic role-playing experience?

The issue I had with the Geth choice (Is that what your talking about?) is that even though Legion and the player have a conversation where he tells you that since this is a race of machines there is no moral dilemma, but the game assigned arbitrary paragon points to one choice and renegade to the other one. That just seemed kinda...like a dick move. I'm not bothered enough to dismiss the whole effort but I thought the impact was cheapened a little. Thats just my opinion.

I would have liked to see some of the choices from Mass Effect have some real impact on Mass Effect 2, but it seemed like few of them did. I don't have any of the DLC for ME2 so perhaps that changes but it seemed to me that choosing to let the council live or letting them die and having a human run one take its place should have had a huge impact on the game world but I barely noticed a difference. The Rachni choice WAS totally useless, got one token line from an NPC as acknowledgement that the choice was made and that was it. I can see things coming to a great close in Mass Effect 3, but this is the same company who went from Dragon Age: Origins to Dragon Age 2 and called it an upgrade.

Now for Dragon Age... I'm not going there. That game is awful.

Thank you I could not agree more. For that reason, color me skeptical about the future of ME3. But I can judge that bridge for myself when I cross it.

But enough nitpicking. I can see why some of the choices in ME gave some players a sense of roleplaying, but it always felt like an illusion of choice being presented to me. I enjoyed how well written the characters and story of the Mass Effect games are, I can honestly say I enjoyed seeing how everything would turn out and liked hearing my favorite crew members discuss whatever. But all these things that supposedly make these games better than linear JRPGs just ended up being window dressing in some cases, the much touted "choice" being little more than "pick one of the endings".

It seems that I can get just as engaging an experience playing through several totally linear JRPGs. In some cases better, Mass Effect had great writing but it was still a story about generic evil sentient machine race #47 out to destroy all life in the galaxy...again. I can name several JRPGs with more creativity than that.

The dilemma about the fate of the Geth gave some pause for thought in the fact that you had to make the choice, but I honestly felt more emotionally engaged by the way the rights of sentient Androids in the world of Xenosaga was depicted, or by a similar note the Reyvateil in Ar tonelico had a similarly thought provoking place in society as living dolls. Its been awhile since I played either game though, I don't remember exactly. I could go on, but this is getting really long.

If the choices in ME boiled down to so little, I may as well play something Linear with a better story is my point I believe.

 

[ThisIsSnake]

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Text HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

12 was a pretty brave step for Squenix, personally I think a famitsu review is worthless though. The game isn't as bad as some people make it out to be. The gameplay was pretty fun if a little autonomous, the art style felt fresh, the characters were good (vaan and vanille excluded), the story starts off a bit shakey but gets really good about 60% of the way in.

 

[-Ulven-]

I am seeing what's happening... we all love DIFFERENT KINDS of RPG's daym... who knew that people can have other tastes?

It seems to me like you are enjoying MMO's and JRPG's way more than the ordinary Western syle RPG like Fallout or The Elder Scrolls. Maybe it is the fact that you really don't get any kind of certain goal in the latter?

 

[silasbufu]

I was practically born with a controller in my hand starting with the Atari 2600 all the way through the age of the PS2, mainly having a distinct love for RPGs like Final Fantasy (1-6... 7-10 meh). Then I discovered MMOs. Starting with Asheron's Call and moving on to Dark Age of Camelot (which I still play for the PvP).

I recently purchased my first console in the last 6 years, an XBox 360 to experience all the rantings and ravings of games like Dragon Age: Origins and Elder Scrolls IV. Digitally purchased KOTOR 1 and 2 and I have to say... I just can't seem to really get into these game. I can't find any love for them or any desire to keep on playing them.

It's really disappointing. I really feel like I WANT to love these games as much as a lot of other people I know, and heard talking about but it's just not happening for me. Did MMOs ruin it for me? Anyone experienced this sort of thing?

I found myself in the same situation after starting to play Guild Wars. Games like Oblivion or Fallout seem very cool and well made to me, but after a while I start to feel a bit claustrophobic , figuratively speeking. Playing with other people , even if you like bashing their skulls, or cooperating with them to kill A.I. enemies is just a different experience. If that's the case, you should just embrace MMO's and have fun with them. I still play an occasional Dragon Age or Fallout, but I can't find myself playing them for 100+ hours like many other people here. Enjoying socializing, even if it's in a virtual environment, is a good thing after all.

 

[Cridhe]

I am seeing what's happening... we all love DIFFERENT KINDS of RPG's daym... who knew that people can have other tastes?

It seems to me like you are enjoying MMO's and JRPG's way more than the ordinary Western syle RPG like Fallout or The Elder Scrolls. Maybe it is the fact that you really don't get any kind of certain goal in the latter?

Maybe my problem is the lack of socializing, and the lack of proper competition. I mean... fighting against AI can be very predictable as opposed to a game like Dark Age of Camelot where you're fighting against two other realms controlled by actual people. Also what I HATE about this game is the whole cookie-cutter must have the best template or die routine. THAT is indeed sucky about any MMO.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

I recently purchased my first console in the last 6 years, an XBox 360 to experience all the rantings and ravings of games like Dragon Age: Origins and Elder Scrolls IV.

That was the mistake there. Playing either of those on console is a far cry from getting the best experience from either of those titles. The 360 is almost 6 years old, which in technology terms is OLD. While certainly capable (and don't mistake me, I love and enjoy mine frequently, for some titles at least!), it cannot compete with PC for beautiful graphics, the joypad is not a mouse/keyboard and you cannot download the hundreds of add ons freely available on the net for both titles. It's the equivalent of watching "Avatar" in standard definition 2D. You get to experience much of it but you miss all the magic.

Saying that, it shouldn't have been so bad to leave you disappointed, they are good games, even if played on the wrong platform. And as an addendum before someone points it out, Oblivion is even older than the 360 so out of the box will look comparable, but you should see the add ons available to improve that (LoD, texture packs, etc).

 

[Cridhe]

I recently purchased my first console in the last 6 years, an XBox 360 to experience all the rantings and ravings of games like Dragon Age: Origins and Elder Scrolls IV.

That was the mistake there. Playing either of those on console is a far cry from getting the best experience from either of those titles. The 360 is almost 6 years old, which in technology terms is OLD. While certainly capable (and don't mistake me, I love and enjoy mine frequently, for some titles at least!), it cannot compete with PC for beautiful graphics, the joypad is not a mouse/keyboard and you cannot download the hundreds of add ons freely available on the net for both titles. It's the equivalent of watching "Avatar" in standard definition 2D. You get to experience much of it but you miss all the magic.

Saying that, it shouldn't have been so bad to leave you disappointed, they are good games, even if played on the wrong platform. And as an addendum before someone points it out, Oblivion is even older than the 360 so out of the box will look comparable, but you should see the add ons available to improve that (LoD, texture packs, etc).

Again. I simply have no interest in being slumped over a keyboard/mouse all day, especially to play games. I have no choice when playing DAoC.

 

[Grufflenark]

Quite the opposite. I've been gaming since I was very young as well. Ultima Online since I was 16 (I think) then switched to Warcraft when it launched. After 5 years of Warcraft I got bored of having to put up with idiots when I'm trying to enjoy my game so I quit MMO's completely and played offline games, occasionally venturing into the odd FPS online. Recently I tried going back to Warcraft and even tried Rift, but now I just cannot get back into MMO's and am much happier in my own little world.

Warcraft isn't a MMO..?

 

[Seraj]

MMORPG, close enough XD

 

[Anjel]

Quite the opposite. I've been gaming since I was very young as well. Ultima Online since I was 16 (I think) then switched to Warcraft when it launched. After 5 years of Warcraft I got bored of having to put up with idiots when I'm trying to enjoy my game so I quit MMO's completely and played offline games, occasionally venturing into the odd FPS online. Recently I tried going back to Warcraft and even tried Rift, but now I just cannot get back into MMO's and am much happier in my own little world.

Warcraft isn't a MMO..?

Um, yes. Read what I wrote again, I can't work out which bit you didn't understand about my post

 

[Anjel]

Warcraft isn't a MMO..?

MMORPG, close enough XD

Oh is it because I called it an MMO instead of an MMORPG? They're the same thing.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

Again. I simply have no interest in being slumped over a keyboard/mouse all day, especially to play games. I have no choice when playing DAoC.

As you say, but not to put too fine a point on it, your choice to play them on console meant you get a short-changed experience from them. They are alright console games, in the same way Street Fighter IV or Need for Speed are alright PC games (NFS isn't a good console game either, bad example!), but on the PC they are incredible; Oblivion in particular is vastly different and superior to the console version.

Warcraft isn't a MMO..?

No it isn't. Warcraft, Warcraft II and Warcraft III are real-time strategy games (with RPG elements). World of Warcraft is an MMO.