Ding! Now You Suck Less

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Lord Krunk

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Oblivion and Fallout 3 are the biggest violators of these rules, but they're good games nonetheless. Regardless, I agree; they would have been so much more fun if they adopted a similar levelling system to games like Legend of Dragoon or Final Fantasy.
 

L4MB

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Oct 13, 2009
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I did find an issue trying to get into the Elder Scrolls games. Morrowind was my first foray into "RPG"s, and I didn't have any clue as to what my character would end up as, or even how I wanted to play the game. I ended up playing several hours with an awkward stealth-based Orc character before I finally figured out that I would rather have a race more suited to my interests.
Haven't made that mistake since, as I generally know that I like stealth-based characters, and I look at the skills I want before starting a game.
 

archvile93

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I'd be really interested in an RPG system where you don't level up per-se, but doing certain action make you better at those. What I mean is you gain stats from performing actions, rather then when your experience hits a predetermined mark. For example instead of killing a monster so you level up and all stats improve, killing that monster just made you slightly better with the weapon you killed it with. As skills improve, rather than seeing a number go up, you start to notice your character improving. For example, maybe your not so clumsy with that sword now that you have the skills to wield it. Maybe running and fighting improves your characters physical stature, thereby showing improve power and endurence. I feel that such a system (if done properly of course) would make your character and the game world seem more real.
 

008Zulu_v1legacy

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You can't really play a class in Oblivion. If you want to be an archer then the enemies will charge in and hack you up in close combat, if you want to be a warrior then archers and mages attacking you run at the speed of light and have laser guided munitions. And if you have a follower they always get in the way of your fireballs and/or arrows, even if you move to circle around, they will follow you. It's worse that they don't level up with you, kinda cripples the whole "Band of adventurers dungeon raiding"

Atleast Alpha Protocol (it promises to anyway...) will let you handle a situation in several different ways with different results.
 

thiosk

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the only sound I enjoy more than a leveling ding is the classic metroid item find noise.

I guess you could consider that an archaic sort of level-up...

I've always hated the elder scrolls system. I play it, I use it, but good lord it is not intuitive.

Remember putting your major skill in athletics and acrobatics and running and jumping your way to level 20?
 

HellsingerAngel

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archvile93 said:
I'd be really interested in an RPG system where you don't level up per-se, but doing certain action make you better at those. What I mean is you gain stats from performing actions, rather then when your experience hits a predetermined mark. For example instead of killing a monster so you level up and all stats improve, killing that monster just made you slightly better with the weapon you killed it with. As skills improve, rather than seeing a number go up, you start to notice your character improving. For example, maybe your not so clumsy with that sword now that you have the skills to wield it. Maybe running and fighting improves your characters physical stature, thereby showing improve power and endurence. I feel that such a system (if done properly of course) would make your character and the game world seem more real.
http://www.rpgwo.com/

Best leveling system ever. Exactly what you described. And I agree that more games need to be like that. The cool twist is that the experience you gain from leveling your skills (weapons, magic, crafting, etc.) go towards a pool of exp used to buy your base stats. Still uses exp to guage how far you are form skill level X, but I think that just goes towards clearly defining how long until your next skill up.

I encourage everyone to check out the RPG system at least once.
 

spike0918

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Apr 16, 2009
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Irridium said:
Like others have said, Borderlands has a nice leveling system. Enemies stay the level their supposed to be, unless you are in co-op, then they get harder for obvious reasons.

I do wish I could go back and kill Sledge again, mainly because when my friends and I fought and defeated him we were a few levels lower than we were supposed to be, and we later found out that we could have done side missions to level us up and make the fight easier. I want to so badly go back and give Sledge the asswhooping he deserved, but I can't.

I could start a new character and defeat him, but it just wouldn't be the same...

Other games need a "ding" sound. Killzone 2 has a nice "chirp" sound when you kill someone, and a special one for headshots. Uncharted 2 also had a nice sound when you killed people.
Hey in case your wondering, you can fight bosses again. The bosses respawn every new "session" which means if you want to fight Sledge again all you need to do is save and go to the main menu then go back to Sledge's hide out and beat the hell out of him. (I overleveled by about 2 levels when I fought Sledge and also had a Epic revolver that shoots 7 concentrated shots of 115 damage with a good rate of fire... basically he died in 4 seconds)

Loved the article Shamus, all of those things you mentioned have annoyed me previously. Especially having too many long-term choices early on in the game.
 

Mike Lemmer

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Apr 7, 2009
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Lvl 64 Klutz said:
I'd like to add to number 1 that levels should be numerous and easy to gain, BUT one should be able to turn off experience or whatever for the reasons explained in number 5. Nothing like grinding away for that rare item only to realize you've gained so many levels in the meantime, the rest of the game is a cakewalk.
Disgaea has a better solution: let the players increase/decrease the enemies' levels between battles. Kind of like Diablo's Nightmare/Hell modes, except you can change it midgame. Actually, Disgaea had a lot of small tweaks that made leveling extremely fun. It might be interesting to go through & list them all.
 

archvile93

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HellsingerAngel said:
archvile93 said:
I'd be really interested in an RPG system where you don't level up per-se, but doing certain action make you better at those. What I mean is you gain stats from performing actions, rather then when your experience hits a predetermined mark. For example instead of killing a monster so you level up and all stats improve, killing that monster just made you slightly better with the weapon you killed it with. As skills improve, rather than seeing a number go up, you start to notice your character improving. For example, maybe your not so clumsy with that sword now that you have the skills to wield it. Maybe running and fighting improves your characters physical stature, thereby showing improve power and endurence. I feel that such a system (if done properly of course) would make your character and the game world seem more real.
http://www.rpgwo.com/

Best leveling system ever. Exactly what you described. And I agree that more games need to be like that. The cool twist is that the experience you gain from leveling your skills (weapons, magic, crafting, etc.) go towards a pool of exp used to buy your base stats. Still uses exp to guage how far you are form skill level X, but I think that just goes towards clearly defining how long until your next skill up.

I encourage everyone to check out the RPG system at least once.
Well that is similar, but I also meant that base stat are controlled by this system. You wouldn't buy your own stats. I feel that makes the game seem more real since I don't recall choosing to improve my speed and agility because I mangaed to fight off the school bully (that was eight years ago).
 

Da Ork

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Nov 19, 2008
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Yeah auto levelling monsters suck. Auto levelling ones you haven't encountered yet isn't so bad. As Shamus said going back and getting revenge on a monster that gave your great trouble early can be bloody good fun. Was one of the things I did when I was max level in wow actually. Went and slaughtered a whole heap of those lighting lizards outside Orgrimmar.
 

MrSnugglesworth

Into the Wild Green Snuggle
Jan 15, 2009
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nairb1582 said:
Well, yes leveling systems can be bad, and I don't entirely disagree with you but a counterpoint is required (and if you value constructive criticism at all, its a change from the rest of the kiss-ass responses). Well, to start use more examples, its a lot more professional. Anyway, the number of problems you have with scalable levels are solved by the old trick of strictly linear progression. Yes, more and more (western) RPG'S are now open world and this wouldn't work, but scalable levels work just fine (usually) if kept in proportion to your own strength. As for the puzzles that can only be solved in one manner, those are either really, really uncommon, or encourage replay ability.As for the lack of enough levels as a whole, well, most people either beat the game by 30-50 or so when you CAN go to 99, which no one ever does. I suppose you should certainly have the option, but for games like Fallout 3 or WOW, where the intention is to increase the level cap in expansions (a practice I hate by the way), they do so for fiscal reasons. The article seems to discourse not at all on good leveling systems, say different kinds or where they can be found, what they work well with and so forth. Instead you focus on bad leveling systems, except not specific ones, just a conglomeration of generic RPG no-no's that have been ESTABLISHED as bad game design.
Wall of text lacks grammar.



If you're going to constructively criticize people, make it so my eyes don't start bleeding before I get to the second sentence.
 

j0z

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Lord Krunk said:
Oblivion and Fallout 3 are the biggest violators of these rules, but they're good games nonetheless. Regardless, I agree; they would have been so much more fun if they adopted a similar levelling system to games like Legend of Dragoon or Final Fantasy.
Which FF?
Now, I am no big FF fan (don't hate it though), but I found the leveling system in 12 to be just plain stupid. When you gained a lvl, you got more HP and MP. That's it (I think). You then had to spend LP to buy the right to use spells/weapons/armor.
I prefer the Mw/Ob/Fo3 style, where the skills you use got better. Although I do not mind a classic system like KOTOR.
 

The Great JT

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Oct 6, 2008
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Well said, Seamus.

Next week, we'll discuss the benefits and downsides to upgradeable/power scaling weapons.
 

Noone From Nowhere

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Shenmue's leveling system increased the effectiveness of individual attacks the longer that Ryo practiced them rather than increase base stats. A punch that comes out a bit crooked or a kick that leaves Ryo stumbling at first in time became less and less clumsy and before one knew it, those trouble techniques could be inserted into combos at any point without missing a beat.

On the one hand, it meant that the player had to engage in plenty practice sessions to master those moves but on the other,it also meant that only the moves that the player wanted to perfect had to be used. Only a handfull needed to be used to win the game, anyway, but to beat guys like Chai, a wide variety of moves dilivered with power and precision were a must.

Ryo gradually became a more competent martial artist yet the game maintained some degree of challenge since he didn't suddenly become immune to punches and kicks from burly men, only more capable of avoiding those attacks and countering them with his own improved moves.

It would be really nice to see some modern game maker use a system like that in their RPGs but it might be even better if Sega just made Shenmue 3 already.
 

DTWolfwood

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Oct 20, 2009
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y is it that the last 20 lvls take a few months to get to where as the first 30 takes days...wtf (most of the fun happens in the beginning and end. the middle just sux! WHY?)

Y cant we just have a set experience bar where going from lvl 1-2 is the same as going from lvl 49-50? ::edit:: ok a bit of scaling would be necessary but like u said, an hour per lvl for every lvl would be nice (the final lvls should never exceed a days worth of straight gaming to achieve!)

I've always imagine endgame raids etc is where all the fun is. But seeing that everything i've ever played turns into work 3/4 of the way to the endgame. i've never seen the light at the end of this Lvling tunnel :(
 

Sheer_falacy

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archvile93 said:
I'd be really interested in an RPG system where you don't level up per-se, but doing certain action make you better at those. What I mean is you gain stats from performing actions, rather then when your experience hits a predetermined mark. For example instead of killing a monster so you level up and all stats improve, killing that monster just made you slightly better with the weapon you killed it with. As skills improve, rather than seeing a number go up, you start to notice your character improving. For example, maybe your not so clumsy with that sword now that you have the skills to wield it. Maybe running and fighting improves your characters physical stature, thereby showing improve power and endurence. I feel that such a system (if done properly of course) would make your character and the game world seem more real.
This is pretty much what oblivion does. And it's horrific. Part of that's implementation - raising your athletics to max requires swimming (running gets you less) for something like 3 days straight. That's way way up there in "tape the key down" territory.

Admittedly, it's also what FFX-2 does, and whatever other issues the game has the leveling system is interesting (just pretend the thing isn't called a "garment grid" and everyone will be happier).

Reality isn't always a good thing. A game is supposed to abstract away things that aren't fun.
 

AvsJoe

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May 28, 2009
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It feels good to go back to the troll that gave you so much trouble at level 5 and give him his comeuppance when you hit level 10.
How many other people went back to that f*cking snake that you had to run like a ***** from in FFVII?

"Oh yeah? Beta me now, motherf*cker!"
 

Kilo24

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PiCroft said:
Arcanum had one fo the best levelling systems I've seen and to date is the only game that geniunely allowed you to choose between being a gunslinger, mage, burly sword-swinger, sneaky thief and so on. It did, however, suffer from the reverse of point #3, vis a vis dumping points on the player near the start and forcing them to become dependent on skills from the start before they really understand what it means...

Arcanum's system was still, in my opinion the single greatest example of a levelling system and skill system ever, but there is such a thing as pricing the ability to survive a fight a little too high for a player whos just starting out.
Arcanum's leveling was almost completely free-form, save for the health and fatigue boosts gotten by leveling. It, however, was poorly balanced, and it ended up centering around slaughtering hordes of monsters by yourself to level up. Followers were mainly useful to drag items around because they sucked so much exp if you actually let them fight in combat, but quests still did give a decent amount of experience. Aside from balance issues, it was excellent.

Oblivion had a horrible system because the developers didn't resolve many of the issues that came with auto-leveling monsters, and because the combat power of a player could be so easily out of whack with his actual level (you can literally gain levels from running in place after all.) Morrowind's was better because they didn't rely so much on auto-leveling. Fallout 3's was best of Bethesda's recent games because it actually gave benefits for levels beyond abstract stat boosts.

In any case, I do want to comment directly on the article, because I disagreed and agreed with parts of it.
Shamus Young said:
How game designers muck this up: They put in too few levels.
I disagree with this. The basic problem is hours of grinding to get to the levels, not the amount of levels themselves. Putting in more levels means that you need to give more benefits out of those levels; if you can't do that in a way that feels significant they just become empty. World of Warcraft had this problem up through 1-60: literally half the levels gave no powers. You can also see the problems of too many levels in Morrowind or Disgaea in that they quickly become insignificant.

Shamus Young said:
How game designers muck this up: They deny the player a way to judge how tough an enemy is.
Agreed.

Shamus Young said:
3.It lets game designers start simple and introduce new gameplay elements gradually instead of throwing new players into the deep end.

How game designers muck this up: They dump all abilities on you at level 1 or (even worse) during the character creation process.
I suppose that it's been a while since I've seen games that screw you up in your character creation from Day 1. I tend to find that there isn't a lot of significant character choices in most games outside MMOs (and they tend to be forgiving frequently.) Not introducing new abilities gradually isn't so much the problem as not introducing them well is (they do tie together strongly though.)

Shamus Young said:
4.It lets the player customize both their character and the gameplay to focus on the parts they enjoy the most. "I hate sneaking around in the dark. I'd much rather just lob fireballs at these guys, so I'll put more points into magic."

How game designers muck this up: Too often, games will offer single-solution challenges.
That's more an issue of gameplay rather than the leveling system. It's a really big problem, I agree, but leveling is rarely the only way to customize your character in a good game. Equipment, tactics, and how you built your character during creation frequently do come into play as much as the leveling system does in this regard.

It ties into the Big Question in video gaming: how can one construct a non-linear narrative when all the literature that its based on fundamentally linear? Games which try to be non-linear generally succeed in doing so but don't do well at everything else as a result.

Shamus Young said:
5. If done right, leveling can let players seek their own challenge level without needing to fuss with the difficulty slider. "Whew. These guys are really hard. Maybe I should level a bit before moving on." Or "Man, these guys are a cakewalk. I think I'll skip this dungeon and find something a little tougher and more rewarding."

How game designers muck this up: The biggest way to mess this up is with auto-leveling foes.
I agree. One of the best uses of leveling is that it permits masterful players to challenge themselves if they want to while letting less astute players spend a bit more time grinding but still be able to progress in the game. Auto-leveling not only screws this up but also murders immersion and mocks the reason for leveling in the first place: to be able to be more effective.