Diversity in stories as opposed to protagonists

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Rolaoi

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I'd like to share my opinion on diversity in games, especially concerning the protagonist and what I feel is a flawed approach. In short, I think changing the gender or ethnicity of the protagonist from the dreaded white male is band-aid approach to a deeper issue with games. Rather than protagonists, the problem lies with the stories being told.

I would like to argue that there are three levels which are addressed to varies degrees to create a more diverse environment. The first, and most shallow, is the protagonist himself. The second is setting. The final is the story.

I'll explain. If you make a war shooter set in the US military, it makes sense to make a male, often white, lead. Changing the character to female makes little sense, and doesn't fit. It's possible, but it creates a certain dissonance in the audience (It should be noted that it can be used for dramatic effect, as in the case of the original Metroid.) While the player might not reason out the why they feel that disconnection, it's that deliberate change that sticks out. I think it's this hang up that people often times mistake for misogyny, homophobia, or racism. I don't believe it is a sign of any such thing, but, rather, a natural reaction to an unfamiliar variable into a familiar setting without any apparent explanation.

When you start to approach setting, you see a more natural introduction of diverse characters. Take the recently released Gaucamelee. Set in Mexico, the choice of protagonist as a Mexican luchador is one that's not only fun but makes sense as well. Having a white American as the lead would create a bizarre and shocking situation.

That brings us now to story. When you create a story, you create the traits which the protagonist must have. It allows for wiggle room, but there are times where the story locks certain traits in. For this, I would like to use the story of Silent Hill 3 as an example. A large part of the story's subtext was about the fear of birth and pregnancy. This was a uniquely female experience which required a female lead in the form of Heather, a highly praised female character. The story called for her, and so she was made. It flowed naturally because there was no need to insert any artificial diversity.

This diversity of story is the major problem in games in terms of diversity. The stories being told are too familiar. I don't believe the blame rests with any one source, the writers may be too limited by their comfort zone, the expectations and interests of their own team, or the publishers concerned about marketing their product. Whatever the case, I think we need to rethink our expectations of what makes up a game's story if we want to see a truer expansion in diversity in games.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Rolaoi said:
I'll explain. If you make a war shooter set in the US military, it makes sense to make a male, often white, lead. Changing the character to female makes little sense, and doesn't fit. It's possible, but it creates a certain dissonance in the audience (It should be noted that it can be used for dramatic effect, as in the case of the original Metroid.) While the player might not reason out the why they feel that disconnection, it's that deliberate change that sticks out. I think it's this hang up that people often times mistake for misogyny, homophobia, or racism.
This again?

If I am to understand you correctly, I can play as an Orc, a Wizard, a Space Marine, an Anthropomorphic Fox, a Dinosaur, a Cyborg, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, and I'll be perfectly fine, but the moment I see, say, a female in the fucking US military the cognitive dissonance is supposed to be so overwhelming that I just won't be able to handle it? What the fuck is that woman doing? How is this even possible? I need to go lie down!

Rolaoi said:
The stories being told are too familiar. I don't believe the blame rests with any one source, the writers may be too limited by their comfort zone, the expectations and interests of their own team, or the publishers concerned about marketing their product. Whatever the case, I think we need to rethink our expectations of what makes up a game's story if we want to see a truer expansion in diversity in games.
This I agree with. But every time we get a story focused game come along that tries to push gaming in different, unexplored directions, there's always some portion of the audience that howls that it "Isn't even a real game".
 

Phasmal

Sailor Jupiter Woman
Jun 10, 2011
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BloatedGuppy said:
Rolaoi said:
I'll explain. If you make a war shooter set in the US military, it makes sense to make a male, often white, lead. Changing the character to female makes little sense, and doesn't fit. It's possible, but it creates a certain dissonance in the audience (It should be noted that it can be used for dramatic effect, as in the case of the original Metroid.) While the player might not reason out the why they feel that disconnection, it's that deliberate change that sticks out. I think it's this hang up that people often times mistake for misogyny, homophobia, or racism.
This again?

If I am to understand you correctly, I can play as an Orc, a Wizard, a Space Marine, an Anthropomorphic Fox, a Dinosaur, a Cyborg, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, and I'll be perfectly fine, but the moment I see, say, a female in the fucking US military the cognitive dissonance is supposed to be so overwhelming that I just won't be able to handle it? What the fuck is that woman doing? How is this even possible? I need to go lie down!
Yeah this. If all it takes to break your immersion is a woman in the army then your imagination is about as interesting as watching paint dry.

BloatedGuppy said:
Rolaoi said:
The stories being told are too familiar. I don't believe the blame rests with any one source, the writers may be too limited by their comfort zone, the expectations and interests of their own team, or the publishers concerned about marketing their product. Whatever the case, I think we need to rethink our expectations of what makes up a game's story if we want to see a truer expansion in diversity in games.
This I agree with. But every time we get a story focused game come along that tries to push gaming in different, unexplored directions, there's always some portion of the audience that howls that it "Isn't even a real game".
Or pandering. Yes, quite a lot of the time people will argue that the story `doesn't call` for a female protag or anyone who isn't Captain Generic, but 1) These stories are being made by people so they can call for anything if they want to and 2) this is just another way of saying you need to have a REASON not to be a straight white guy.
 

BubbleBurst

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You know, I agree with Phantasmal and BloatedGuppy; we don't exactly live in a world where it should blow anyone's mind that our protagonist is female, or gay, or black, or overweight. We should be able to have all of those in modern video games as characteristics of out protagonist, without someone saying it's unrealistic or pandering or whatever. Totally behind you, 100 percent.

That being said, I think Rolaoi came in here and gave a reasonable opinion, as well as one I don't entirely disagree with: Some of it does have to do with the stories that we're telling, over and over again. Only some of it, but still. I'm not sure the responses to him needed to be quite so confrontational. You disagree with him, I disagree, we can do that a bit less aggressively, maybe?
 

Mikeybb

Nunc est Durandum
Aug 19, 2014
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BloatedGuppy said:
*snipped to the bit I wanted to respond to*

This I agree with. But every time we get a story focused game come along that tries to push gaming in different, unexplored directions, there's always some portion of the audience that howls that it "Isn't even a real game".
That's one of the reasons Total Biscuits call for finding a name for that genre (though he doesn't call it a game, due to a lack of fail state) is an important one.

Aside from making it easier to identify that kind of title on places like steam, it would allow the producers of those kinds of games to stake out their territory.
Being able to describe the kind of experience you offer concisely is part of it, of course.

I'm at a loss as to what they exactly should be called though.
Interactive fiction?
Virtual experience?

All I seem to be coming up with is prog rock band names at the moment.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Mikeybb said:
I'm at a loss as to what they exactly should be called though.
Interactive fiction?
Virtual experience?
While I'm generally in agreement with Biscuit on this point, he's still attempting to apply his own personal definition of what a game is, as opposed to the actual definition of what a game is. Whether or not they appeal to industry grognards, games like "Gone Home" or "Proteus" or "Kentucky Route Zero" are games. It would be delightful if we could calcify some genre distinctions for them so people know WTF it is they're buying, but in all honest Caveat Emptor still applies to game aficionados and there isn't an excuse for not doing your due diligence before shelling out money for a new product. If I buy a game blind and discover it was nothing like anything I'd want to play, I have no one to blame but myself.

BubbleBurst said:
I'm not sure the responses to him needed to be quite so confrontational. You disagree with him, I disagree, we can do that a bit less aggressively, maybe?
I re-read my response to the OP, and it reads as sardonic, but not particularly "aggressive". I don't attack the OP or infer anything distasteful about him. I also singled out part of his post I agreed with, rather than just slapping him in the face for making a bad argument.

We had an earlier thread that was similarly toned, something like "Don't put women or minority CEOs in your game, it will shatter immersion! CEOs should be old white men!", and that got similarly roasted. Just surprising to see such a bankrupt argument re-emerge in a slightly different hat in such a short period of time.
 

BubbleBurst

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BloatedGuppy said:
BubbleBurst said:
I'm not sure the responses to him needed to be quite so confrontational. You disagree with him, I disagree, we can do that a bit less aggressively, maybe?
I re-read my response to the OP, and it reads as sardonic, but not particularly "aggressive". I don't attack the OP or infer anything distasteful about him. I also singled out part of his post I agreed with, rather than just slapping him in the face for making a bad argument.

We had an earlier thread that was similarly toned, something like "Don't put women or minority CEOs in your game, it will shatter immersion! CEOs should be old white men!", and that got similarly roasted. Just surprising to see such a bankrupt argument re-emerge in a slightly different hat in such a short period of time.
Fair enough. "Aggressive" might have been the wrong word; "demeaning" was another one in my head at the time, that I was hesitant to use. Either way, I was suspecting there were Reasons(tm), it just seemed that the responses were a bit harsher than the original post warranted, to me.

BloatedGuppy said:
Mikeybb said:
I'm at a loss as to what they exactly should be called though.
Interactive fiction?
Virtual experience?
While I'm generally in agreement with Biscuit on this point, he's still attempting to apply his own personal definition of what a game is, as opposed to the actual definition of what a game is. Whether or not they appeal to industry grognards, games like "Gone Home" or "Proteus" or "Kentucky Route Zero" are games. It would be delightful if we could calcify some genre distinctions for them so people know WTF it is they're buying, but in all honest Caveat Emptor still applies to game aficionados and there isn't an excuse for not doing your due diligence before shelling out money for a new product. If I buy a game blind and discover it was nothing like anything I'd want to play, I have no one to blame but myself.
I hesitate to agree with this, entirely. Solidifying game genres is great, although the nature of modern games (and I love this) is such that they tend to bleed over the boundaries. However, creating a separate genre for this exact reason just seems like giving in the a whole crowd of people who think that games they don't like, or games they disagree with, shouldn't count as "games."
 

BloatedGuppy

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BubbleBurst said:
I hesitate to agree with this, entirely. Solidifying game genres is great, although the nature of modern games (and I love this) is such that they tend to bleed over the boundaries. However, creating a separate genre for this exact reason just seems like giving in the a whole crowd of people who think that games they don't like, or games they disagree with, shouldn't count as "games."
Well, as it stands, they already think they shouldn't count as "games", and rage when they get strong reviews. No one gets angry at a highly rated puzzle game, or old-timey wargame, they just say "Huh, I guess that game is a strong example of its specific genre" and move on with their lives.

As boggling as it is to think someone might have bought a copy of "Gone Home" expecting Battlefield 4 or something, that would appear to be part of the problem. The same might apply to someone buying Bioshock Infinite expecting a hardcore shooter like ARMA, or someone buying The Last of Us and anticipating a finely honed survival game.

Cross genres muddy the waters, certainly, but we've had things like "action RPGs" for some time and no one flipped any tables over.
 

Mikeybb

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Aug 19, 2014
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BloatedGuppy said:
While I'm generally in agreement with Biscuit on this point, he's still attempting to apply his own personal definition of what a game is, as opposed to the actual definition of what a game is. Whether or not they appeal to industry grognards, games like "Gone Home" or "Proteus" or "Kentucky Route Zero" are games. It would be delightful if we could calcify some genre distinctions for them so people know WTF it is they're buying, but in all honest Caveat Emptor still applies to game aficionados and there isn't an excuse for not doing your due diligence before shelling out money for a new product. If I buy a game blind and discover it was nothing like anything I'd want to play, I have no one to blame but myself.
True, you do have to take a degree of responsibility when making a purchase.
These titles need to be defined soon though as they're fast becoming a genre, if not already one without name.
It wouldn't just help steer people who don't like those kinds of experiences away from them, it'd also help steer people towards them.

Kentucky Route Zero is one that I've circled occasionally, unsure what to expect and far too frugal at the moment(read tight fisted) to just throw the money down on a chance.
At the same time, when I know there's a story heavy game I try approach reviews carefully, for fear of spoiling elements of the story for myself.
So far, I've been holding off due to the ambiguity really.

BubbleBurst said:
I hesitate to agree with this, entirely. Solidifying game genres is great, although the nature of modern games (and I love this) is such that they tend to bleed over the boundaries. However, creating a separate genre for this exact reason just seems like giving in the a whole crowd of people who think that games they don't like, or games they disagree with, shouldn't count as "games."
It's true, the way that modern games look at the boundaries between genres and then proceed to bound all over them is a good thing.
That can lead to some exceptional game play and experiences.

Defining genres isn't so much giving in though, as establishing what you claim to be.
You are right that people will still claim something isn't a real game.
Visual novels have this accusation thrown at them on occasion.
The thing is, there'll always be someone wanting to claim what they percieve as the gaming high ground, sometimes even within the genre itself (Flight sims, for example).
Marking out a genre is claiming your part of the games landscape.
Even if the game in question happens to have three applicable genres and refuses to stay put in any one of them for too long.

The thing is though, not having a genre named doesn't stop people saying 'that's not a game'.
Having it doesn't stop them saying it either, but it certainly makes it easier for customers to find your titles in a catalog and avoid an incautious purchaser being disappointed and asking for a refund.
 

dragonswarrior

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Feb 13, 2012
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Going to go in agreeing with the folks who've stated that if you can't find immersion playing as a female in the military then there's something wrong.

However, for the most part I liked your post. It would be nice to see games not just put diverse protagonists in the same story and setting, but see diverse stories and settings that require diverse protagonists.

As far as settings go however, just because we have a setting that requires someone other than "Straight White Cis Male Dudebro" doesn't mean we will get it. See: Nathan Drake. (The Max Payne series as well I believe? Isn't the third one somewhere in south or central america while Max is your typical white guy?) Anyway, that's just one big example, I know there are others.

Same thing could even be said about story. I haven't really encountered this in games so much, but I'm an avid reader and I know I've encountered some stories where a male character written by a male author must go through the "Woman's Experience" or some such. Same with race: White character, white author, goes out to live the "minority experience" with all the ridiculous amount of problematicness inherent in that.
 

JohnZ117

A blind man before the Elephant
Jun 19, 2012
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BubbleBurst said:
You know, I agree with Phantasmal and BloatedGuppy;
Off topic, I know, but this sentence fragment makes me think our user-names might be a little too weird.

On topic, I do think we need more video game stories that can't just boil down to, this dude must kill those dudes and that big dude for...reasons.
 

MirenBainesUSMC

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I'm afraid what people are asking for at the story level a game can't exactly accomplish in its present state --- you either going to end up pissing off the button smashers or the in depth-immersion enthusiasts. There is a general rule in writing, in that, you don't always have to go over board in explaining/describing things because you let the reader's imagination fulfill the details while moving along with your plot.

This is why you see some people adore games like Balder's Gate vs Dragon Age --- because as you can see, hear, and look at the character, the older game made you imagine them which formulated the experience far more engrossing. This kind of happens in Mass Effect 1 where in certain instances, you don't really see half of the planets in the third-person, but you read the history behind a certain planet and you thus imagine the rest. When you come across those strange Protheon Orbs and the consort's prize enacts a vision in Shepard, its not shown to you... but you have to read it in a written text.

The context of the character must match the world, situation, and environment in which you put him/her in. In an example, if you were to make a Rome type of game but you wanted to avoid a white male as a Centurion and you suddenly put a woman in there, it would just look ridiculous if not 90% unlikely. However --- if you spun that same game in which you played a Celtic tribe woman that ended up being a leader against the Romans....well that is a different take all together and would fit the plot and premiss nicely. Simply putting a darker skinned character, making a character suddenly gay/bi-sex ect, putting a female physic on them for the sake of doing so is simply being misleading if not fraudulent, and you'll be seen as so.

It must make sense. It must fit the narrative.

I am just not convinced from the way I've seen stories of these AAA titles go that you have the talent nor the corporate backing that would allow such creative freedom to happen.
 

EternallyBored

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Jun 17, 2013
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MirenBainesUSMC said:
I'm afraid what people are asking for at the story level a game can't exactly accomplish in its present state --- you either going to end up pissing off the button smashers or the in depth-immersion enthusiasts. There is a general rule in writing, in that, you don't always have to go over board in explaining/describing things because you let the reader's imagination fulfill the details while moving along with your plot.

This is why you see some people adore games like Balder's Gate vs Dragon Age --- because as you can see, hear, and look at the character, the older game made you imagine them which formulated the experience far more engrossing. This kind of happens in Mass Effect 1 where in certain instances, you don't really see half of the planets in the third-person, but you read the history behind a certain planet and you thus imagine the rest. When you come across those strange Protheon Orbs and the consort's prize enacts a vision in Shepard, its not shown to you... but you have to read it in a written text.

The context of the character must match the world, situation, and environment in which you put him/her in. In an example, if you were to make a Rome type of game but you wanted to avoid a white male as a Centurion and you suddenly put a woman in there, it would just look ridiculous if not 90% unlikely. However --- if you spun that same game in which you played a Celtic tribe woman that ended up being a leader against the Romans....well that is a different take all together and would fit the plot and premiss nicely. Simply putting a darker skinned character, making a character suddenly gay/bi-sex ect, putting a female physic on them for the sake of doing so is simply being misleading if not fraudulent, and you'll be seen as so.

It must make sense. It must fit the narrative.

I am just not convinced from the way I've seen stories of these AAA titles go that you have the talent nor the corporate backing that would allow such creative freedom to happen.
Context can matter but I think people put too much emphasis on it when we have plenty of examples of Japanese games playing around with historical context without people suddenly losing their suspension of disbelief and stomping off in a huff. Games where actual historic or fictional male characters are turned into cute anime girls seem to come out just fine without cries about historical accuracy and context. Hell, there's a new Phoenix wright style game coming out with a bishounen Sherlock Holmes and a little anime girl replacing dr. Watson and I've yet to hear any serious outcry about historical context, revisionism, or breaking suspension of disbelief.
 

fezgod

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Rolaoi said:
I'll explain. If you make a war shooter set in the US military, it makes sense to make a male, often white, lead.
Right, because no Hispanics, Blacks or Asians ever join the US military.
 

Inglorious891

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BloatedGuppy said:
Rolaoi said:
I'll explain. If you make a war shooter set in the US military, it makes sense to make a male, often white, lead. Changing the character to female makes little sense, and doesn't fit. It's possible, but it creates a certain dissonance in the audience (It should be noted that it can be used for dramatic effect, as in the case of the original Metroid.) While the player might not reason out the why they feel that disconnection, it's that deliberate change that sticks out. I think it's this hang up that people often times mistake for misogyny, homophobia, or racism.
This again?

If I am to understand you correctly, I can play as an Orc, a Wizard, a Space Marine, an Anthropomorphic Fox, a Dinosaur, a Cyborg, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, and I'll be perfectly fine, but the moment I see, say, a female in the fucking US military the cognitive dissonance is supposed to be so overwhelming that I just won't be able to handle it? What the fuck is that woman doing? How is this even possible? I need to go lie down!
I'd rather not put words in your mouth, so I'm just going to ask you directly: if a WWII game came out that was trying to be, narratively anyway, realistic, but half of the Allied soldiers (just the Allies, not the Axis) were women, would you be able to take the narrative seriously? I'm just curious on your thoughts on the matter.

When people complain about women being in the military causing cognative dissawhatever, they're saying so because there are hardly any women in boots-on-the-ground roles in the military, mainly because women weren't allowed in most of those roles until recently. If Spec Ops had any female main charactrers, the game wouldn't make any sense as at the time of the game's release women weren't allowed into Delta Force, and having half of the 33rd be women would also be very... odd, since half of the regular army isn't female. There were women in the Army at the time I realize, but it still would have been odd.
 

briankoontz

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I agree with the OP, and certain people on this forum think they are being progressive but it's just the opposite.

Let's take a clear example - according to some people there's nothing wrong with a developer making a game about the American military's domination of a Middle Eastern country and having the protagonist - an American front-line soldier mowing down waves of Muslims in order to control the area for the sake of Western corporations be an Arab-American Muslim transgendered woman.

If that WAS the developer's selection for the identity of the American soldier in question, that would NOT be progressive. That would be regressive. The message sent is - it doesn't matter what the content of the game is, just the identity of the protagonist.

There's such a thing as WRONG inclusion - if a group of people are clubbing baby seals to death I'm happy to be excluded - it's not "progressive" of them to include everyone in the clubbing. Hey, our game is progressive because you can select 10 different ethnicities and four gender identities for the *appearance* of the person doing the clubbing! So progressive!

http://www.militaryonesource.mil/12038/MOS/Reports/2012_Demographics_Report.pdf

Only 14.6% of active duty American military personnel are women, and only 30.3% are non-white. I can't find data on transgenders but it's got to be extremely low, and the percentage of homosexuals or bisexuals is probably fairly low, certainly under 20% and probably under 10%. I also can't find data on military contractor demographics, which is just as important since they are more active than official US military personnel at the moment, despite what the content of video games implies.

There's, technically speaking, nothing wrong with having an Arab-American transgender woman mowing down waves of Muslims for the sake of the domination of that country, even if it's that person's home country. Heck, even if the victims are her family members. There's nothing *wrong* with that artistic construction. But JESUS FUCKING CHRIST shouldn't the developer at least explain *why* the protagonist is who she is? It's not the *same thing* to have that protagonist be a straight white guy from Alabama versus an Arab-American transgender woman from the very city that the game is taking place in. Can the so called "progressives" in this thread possibly understand that?

Can you guys understand why it's wrong to have the player select the ethnicity, gender, and sexual orientation of the protagonist and then have the game's content be *exactly the same* no matter what the player chooses?

In real life we all know that humans have VERY different experiences depending on their ethnicity, gender, and sexual orientation. So why should games pretend that those experiences are IDENTICAL by allowing the player to choose those and then the game ignoring the choices?

This is not an issue that we should let slide, and my position is NOT regressive, conservative, right-wing, or even moderate. It's the right position for progressives to take.
 

MirenBainesUSMC

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To add to the discussion, its good to have debates but at the end of the day, write/create a game within the vision, scope, and creative direction that you plan on doing because an open-ended, I-Hope-To-Please-Everyone project will just end up pleasing no one. If its a white/black/Hispanic/purple/green character --- so be it. Gay/Strait/Trans-gender... so be it. Just make it be a plausible and believable story without the feeling of cookie-cutter nonsense.
 

Nomad Prime

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fezgod said:
Rolaoi said:
I'll explain. If you make a war shooter set in the US military, it makes sense to make a male, often white, lead.
Right, because no Hispanics, Blacks or Asians ever join the US military.
Didn't COD4's American squad consist of you, a hispanic CO, a black guy, and Third Guy alongside some mooks? Anyway, I agree with OP because remembering back before we were all raising a fuss about gender/racial representation we had a similar, but different complaint, which was not only was the protagonist always a white guy, it was always the same basic person, to the point where games might as well have been said to have been starring Dudebro McSpacemarine, who carried through between franchises. Looking at it from a learning perspective, Dudebro McSpacemarine serves a role as a recognizable component. You see a big bouncy looking platform in a game, it's either a cushion to avoid fall damage or a trampoline and it always works the same way. You see a glowing object floating in space in an otherwise normal room and you know you can walk over it to pick it up. You see Dudebro McSpacemarine as the main character and you know to not expect too much character development, and that he will be competent at what he's doing, but not so competent that he won't need to check the Exposition Fairy all the time to see what to do next. So yeah, it makes sense to use a white male lead. Because if it's a black guy or a woman, we might expect that they actually express themselves as a character, and if they don't want to do that in this game (which is completely reasonable, not all games need character development) then it's much easier to just send us a nonverbal signal from the get-go so we know what the score is. So yeah, if you want more diversity in gaming that doesn't amount to flat tokenism, first there really does need to be more diverse stories, because otherwise, if there isn't any difference between these diverse main characters other than visual characteristics, why SHOULDN'T it be Dudebro McSpacemarine?