Diversty in GTA

[kilenem]

I always though its odd that Rock Star gets flak for not havering women as playable characters but isn't given props for having characters who aren't white Americans. Franklin is the best original black character. His dialogue is great and he isn't some cookie cutter stereotype. Most black characters in video games look like they are on steroids or they are comic relief. Specially if you look at black people in Japanese games. I cringe every time i see a black person in a Japanese game.

If we look at some of the other protagonist in GTA like we have people of Italian decent, Chinese decent and Niko Bellic is probably of Russian Decent. I don't think Rock star has a problem with diversity as much as other companies. I know its sucks for women that most of your characters look s like a barbies but most characters who aren't white American males have the same character type or little variation. Its not just women who have the same art design so we should give praise to a company breaking the norm.

Also,a black male character that talks in thick urban dialect, owns a scary dog, lives in a slum, and happens to be a criminal, is an original and worthy black character?

Maybe i stepped into a parallel universe where all black men are corporate leaders and speak like Indiana Jones villains.

I know its odd to day that is a original character but growing up watching movies, tv and playing video games based off of urban areas, Rock star is one of the few people to do it well. Most of the time a movie set in the "Ghetto is about a kid who stuck in a gang who knows how to dance, sing or do poetry and it takes a mentor to set him on the right track.Usually for that kid to get on the right track his best friend has to die. I was really expecting to Lamar die. GTA 5 is almost a parody of it. Franklin is sort of gangster and Micheal makes ends up making him a better criminal.

The dialogue between the black characters for the most part is spot on. I was watching a video for it and someone was complaining about the amount of times they use the N-word. I responded to him that pretty accurate for black youth. The black women in Remember me and Assassin's creed Liberation are original but they don't have a black voice actor which kind of takes away from the authenticity. I'll give you a example on the flip side where the voice for Aqua Man in Injustice Gods Among Us is Phil LaMarr a black voice actor it threw me off. I know they are trying to make Aqua man cooler by giving him a deeper voice but it doesn't fit

 

[kilenem]

Franklin is the best original black character.

Bro, did you even CJ from San Andreas?

More to the point: GTA games are all about stereotypes. They are the prime example of satirical stereotyping. That's the point.

If you read some of the other post I talk about how GTA does stereo types but they also do social commentary. SOmeone brought up a comparison of GTA to the Simpsons because they were both satires on American Life. I think its alright if forms of media do stereo types of people but as long as the forms of media made it known they are self aware . I might have to replay San Andreas its been a while.

If you have to explain the joke, it loses its impact. Ergo, GTA would be less effective a media if Rockstar came out and explained that, "no, we don't truly believe people are like this, etc..."

Stereo types are different from stereotypes, just fyi...

I think the joke is relative if your from a different culture then you wouldn't get the joke. Franklin's whole campaign to me was parody of a movie based in the intercity. I live in the intercity and most movies get the dialogue and story wrong. The smart kid is always getting made fun of because he the only one smart in the class. That never happen. Like any other school weird people get made fun of.

 

[DataSnake]

And I am waiting for the day that a game has an honest to fucking god second generation Asian American protagonist who doesn't go on about fucking honor or the mother country or whatever. They exist! Really!

I know just the guy. Not playable, but definitely a main character.

Spoiler: He really is full of surprises!

 

[Abomination]

Guess what?AAA gaming is no longer going to be a all boys club since more women are getting into gaming every day,so when a sizable portion of the market is excluded because of "Hahaha girls should'nt play games" then they are being alienated.

So wake me when we get there. Until then, giving Rockstar a hard time for conforming to market expectations and making... how much money again? It just seems like you're picking a fight you can't win.

Girls might be getting into the AAA scene more and more but they're still not the significant majority like males are. So at the moment, in the current climate, companies will continue to adhere to the (even if I believe it is misconceived) notion that gamers like to play what they "identify" as more than what they do not.

If women won't buy a game because they can't play as a woman then it stands for the exact same reason that males won't buy a game because they can't play as a male. If the former is correct then a game where there is a male protagonist is the less risky venture as the significant majority of your potential customers are male. If the former is incorrect and anyone will play a game no matter the sex or gender of the character then the entire debate is moot.

So it either matters from an economic point of view so you can't blame them for doing it as they're trying to run a business or it doesn't matter and if it doesn't matter then why even care?

 

[gargantual]

I always though its odd that Rock Star gets flak for not havering women as playable characters but isn't given props for having characters who aren't white Americans. Franklin is the best original black character. His dialogue is great and he isn't some cookie cutter stereotype. Most black characters in video games look like they are on steroids or they are comic relief. Specially if you look at black people in Japanese games. I cringe every time i see a black person in a Japanese game.

If we look at some of the other protagonist in GTA like we have people of Italian decent, Chinese decent and Niko Bellic is probably of Russian Decent. I don't think Rock star has a problem with diversity as much as other companies. I know its sucks for women that most of your characters look s like a barbies but most characters who aren't white American males have the same character type or little variation. Its not just women who have the same art design so we should give praise to a company breaking the norm.

Also,a black male character that talks in thick urban dialect, owns a scary dog, lives in a slum, and happens to be a criminal, is an original and worthy black character?

Maybe i stepped into a parallel universe where all black men are corporate leaders and speak like Indiana Jones villains.

Franklin wanted to change his lot in life and make something of himself,that makes him pretty original to me.

You know how horrible that sounds right? Oh yeah hes a typical black guy but OH he wants to be a good person and actually be a worthy member of society HOW ORIGINAL

Not implying your racist or anything, just kind of supports my point :/

Considering I'm 50% black I don't see how my post was racist.All I'm saying is Franklin is not like the stereotypical black guy that is portrayed in media because he actually wants to make something of himself and not be a gangster from the hood.

I suppose your right, its just kind of sad that that's what considered to be a well written black character, everything bad the media tells us about black people with his only not shit quality being that he doesn't want to be so bad. Its like the guy off the walking dead who is perfectly lovely but oh of COERCE he's a convicted murderer because otherwise he'd be too white for a black guy.

Anyway, im a)female and b) white so i'm probably wrong about everything im saying here.

Ehh. I dunno. You shouldn't feel sad about Franklin. It's about more than status. Even for successful black men theres the stigma being cast as being instantly labeled a criminal or vile if they so much as display righteous anger. In Franklin we just have a 'man' caught in the game. Thats the perception I carried with C.J. in San Andreas (though there was the convenience of him being put up to doing wrong by dirty cops 'one of them Tenpenny being a black cop'. It happened with the LAPD, no need to shy away from it. or films like Boyz in the Hood. Tupac shamed in the media as a thug NEVER flinched at the media perceptions crafted of him or at the idea he was perpetuating a stereotype. Even though he knew he was just a rapper and actor knowing there were people in the media that would never respect him no matter who he was. I think people would wonder more about a GTA playable character as a respectable black male succumbing to the lows of american crime in social juxtaposition of many succesful whites who don't have any social burden of 'you must be a social paragon or else'

I don't care that a gangster is a prominent black character. Franklin is smart. He's not some blatantly insulting 'coon' figure.

 

[Belaam]

Blah blah blah needs female protagonist blah blah blah sexism blah blah blah feminism.

Pretty much all I hear when people complain about this shit.

Remember when this wasn't a problem? Those were happier days.

I really can't see a lack of diversity as a good thing. If for no other reason than as one of those young white males who started gaming in the 80s with my Atari 2600 and Commedore 64, I now have daughters I would like to game with and would like so see more roles for them.

I rather suspect that many gamers who pine for the "good old days" of gaming are actually too young to have been there for them. Kind of like the number of politicians in the US who seem to have this view that the 50s were the best time ever.

Loss of privilege is not the same a persecution.

 

[sweetylnumb]

I always though its odd that Rock Star gets flak for not havering women as playable characters but isn't given props for having characters who aren't white Americans. Franklin is the best original black character. His dialogue is great and he isn't some cookie cutter stereotype. Most black characters in video games look like they are on steroids or they are comic relief. Specially if you look at black people in Japanese games. I cringe every time i see a black person in a Japanese game.

If we look at some of the other protagonist in GTA like we have people of Italian decent, Chinese decent and Niko Bellic is probably of Russian Decent. I don't think Rock star has a problem with diversity as much as other companies. I know its sucks for women that most of your characters look s like a barbies but most characters who aren't white American males have the same character type or little variation. Its not just women who have the same art design so we should give praise to a company breaking the norm.

Also,a black male character that talks in thick urban dialect, owns a scary dog, lives in a slum, and happens to be a criminal, is an original and worthy black character?

Maybe i stepped into a parallel universe where all black men are corporate leaders and speak like Indiana Jones villains.

Franklin wanted to change his lot in life and make something of himself,that makes him pretty original to me.

You know how horrible that sounds right? Oh yeah hes a typical black guy but OH he wants to be a good person and actually be a worthy member of society HOW ORIGINAL

Not implying your racist or anything, just kind of supports my point :/

Considering I'm 50% black I don't see how my post was racist.All I'm saying is Franklin is not like the stereotypical black guy that is portrayed in media because he actually wants to make something of himself and not be a gangster from the hood.

I suppose your right, its just kind of sad that that's what considered to be a well written black character, everything bad the media tells us about black people with his only not shit quality being that he doesn't want to be so bad. Its like the guy off the walking dead who is perfectly lovely but oh of COERCE he's a convicted murderer because otherwise he'd be too white for a black guy.

Anyway, im a)female and b) white so i'm probably wrong about everything im saying here.

Ehh. I dunno. You shouldn't feel sad about Franklin. It's about more than status. Even for successful black men theres the stigma being cast as being instantly labeled a criminal or vile if they so much as display righteous anger. In Franklin we just have a 'man' caught in the game. Thats the perception I carried with C.J. in San Andreas (though there was the convenience of him being put up to doing wrong by dirty cops 'one of them Tenpenny being a black cop'. It happened with the LAPD, no need to shy away from it. or films like Boyz in the Hood. Tupac shamed in the media as a thug NEVER flinched at the media perceptions crafted of him or at the idea he was perpetuating a stereotype. Even though he knew he was just a rapper and actor knowing there were people in the media that would never respect him no matter who he was. I think people would wonder more about a GTA playable character as a respectable black male succumbing to the lows of american crime in social juxtaposition of many succesful whites who don't have any social burden of 'you must be a social paragon or else'

I don't care that a gangster is a prominent black character. Franklin is smart. He's not some blatantly insulting 'coon'
figure.

I suppose when you look at it that way, in comparatively progressive. And i suppose to some people, speaking in urban dialect might not be seen as a negative quality in a person and might not lead them to think its a stereotypical and offense character. Its interesting to think about that from my very not black position. This has been engaging and thought provoking, thank you

 

[sweetylnumb]

Guess what?AAA gaming is no longer going to be a all boys club since more women are getting into gaming every day,so when a sizable portion of the market is excluded because of "Hahaha girls should'nt play games" then they are being alienated.

So wake me when we get there. Until then, giving Rockstar a hard time for conforming to market expectations and making... how much money again? It just seems like you're picking a fight you can't win.

Girls might be getting into the AAA scene more and more but they're still not the significant majority like males are. So at the moment, in the current climate, companies will continue to adhere to the (even if I believe it is misconceived) notion that gamers like to play what they "identify" as more than what they do not.

If women won't buy a game because they can't play as a woman then it stands for the exact same reason that males won't buy a game because they can't play as a male. If the former is correct then a game where there is a male protagonist is the less risky venture as the significant majority of your potential customers are male. If the former is incorrect and anyone will play a game no matter the sex or gender of the character then the entire debate is moot.

So it either matters from an economic point of view so you can't blame them for doing it as they're trying to run a business or it doesn't matter and if it doesn't matter then why even care?

No'one REALLY expected there to be a female protagonist in GTA. Or at least, i didn't, and considering the history of GTA and its not so female friendly aspects, it would be stupid to expect a GOOD female character.
I'll still buy it, i'll still like it.

Guys like you need to stop getting into a hissy fit when people bring this up though. Your either like OMG FEMINISM KILL IT WITH FIRE (because god forbid women start standing up for themselves) or your all like FACTS HERES FACTS HERES CHARECTERS THIS ISNT A PROBLEM IT ISNT SEE!!! which is dumb.

Females may not appear to be the majority, and they arn't, but that doesn't mean they don't take up a significant portion of potential customers, so from a "BUSINEzz" standpoint, it would be a bad idea to alienate them. And as Jim has recently shown the world, female protagonists are not only thin on the ground, but not exactly a gift to women-kind.

From a human standpoint though, why are you guys so against games considering women? You bring up all these excuses and facts as to WHY Its done (supposedly) but it all comes down to you think its OK for women to be left out and shunned from these games, and why is that? Because of facts and reasons? Do you really care so much about a games sales and profits that you think excluding women is ok (assuming that including women has an adverse effect, which is debatable at best...)

Of course you don't. You don't care about EA's sales. Or Ubisoft's. So why so anti-women, aie?

 

[Knows_Nothing]

I was surprised not so much by the lack of a female protagonist, but more by the lack of any female character who had any substance to her. Michael's wife and daughter? Dumb bimbos. Franklin's aunt? A "feminist," in the most mocking of ways. One could argue that all the male characters are negatively portrayed as murderous psychopaths, but look at the difference in those archetypes. One is a stone-cold, independent killer who can do whatever the fuck he wants; the other is an ignorant, self-obsessed weakling who couldn't save herself from a papercut. Is it so petty for people to be just a *little put off by such blatantly lazy attempts at humor towards women?

 

[Abomination]

From a human standpoint though, why are you guys so against games considering women?

Who says they're against games considering women?

You will find most who are begrudging the opinion that a woman needs to be included in a GTA title are doing so because they're against the concept of shoehorned minorites.

Someone is asking "Why isn't there X demographic represented in Y?" and the response is "Why should there be?"

If it matters so much to people then you can't blame companies for adhering to the majority of their consumer base. If you want something to change don't demand a company cut its own throat to appeal to your niche.

If it doesn't matter - as any feminist or racial egalitarian will tell you - then the point or demand is moot.

 

[kilenem]

I was surprised not so much by the lack of a female protagonist, but more by the lack of any female character who had any substance to her. Michael's wife and daughter? Dumb bimbos. Franklin's aunt? A "feminist," in the most mocking of ways. One could argue that all the male characters are negatively portrayed as murderous psychopaths, but look at the difference in those archetypes. One is a stone-cold, independent killer who can do whatever the fuck he wants; the other is an ignorant, self-obsessed weakling who couldn't save herself from a papercut. Is it so petty for people to be just a *little put off by such blatantly lazy attempts at humor towards women?

That isn't actually true. The girl Franklin was trying to date she wasn't stupid. She could see Franklin for who he was that is why didn't want a relationship with him. She also makes Franklin fill guilty not helping out Lamar The girl Trevor was "kidnapped" wasn't stupid either she was a victim of Domestic Violence and Trevor was trying to take her away from that situation. The women who got shredded in the airplane jet engine was an asshole.

 

[Ickorus]

I like the three characters interactions but a female character could work, especially now with multiple characters. Heck someone like Taliana Martinez the crew member you can find, she'd work just as a getaway driver character like Franklin.

She died literally as I arrived at her friends house and he was coming to get her, bit annoying since she is one of the best crew members you can get.

OT: I think a female character would be cool, I mean, women make up half of the human population of this planet so why not? With the multiple character system I could see it being pretty easy to pull off without any fuss.

I'd want the character to be as unstable and silly as Michael or Trevor too, would be interesting to see how people react to it.

 

[sweetylnumb]

From a human standpoint though, why are you guys so against games considering women?

Who says they're against games considering women?

You will find most who are begrudging the opinion that a woman needs to be included in a GTA title are doing so because they're against the concept of shoehorned minorites.

Someone is asking "Why isn't there X demographic represented in Y?" and the response is "Why should there be?"

If it matters so much to people then you can't blame companies for adhering to the majority of their consumer base. If you want something to change don't demand a company cut its own throat to appeal to your niche.

If it doesn't matter - as any feminist or racial egalitarian will tell you - then the point or demand is moot.

Women don't matter. I get it. You tottaly care about companies making money therefore its tottaly ok to appeal only to the standard gamer white male, and you can't ever try to change anything or point anything out, ok. Over half the population is a minority, a demographic to be ignored. Alright. You know, its ok to hate women, you have that right. Just admit it rather than hide your distaste with weak excuses.

 

[hazabaza1]

And I am waiting for the day that a game has an honest to fucking god second generation Asian American protagonist who doesn't go on about fucking honor or the mother country or whatever. They exist! Really!

Oooh, ooh, I don't care about the rest of the thread but I know this one!

Spoiler: Vince from The Walking Dead 400 Days

That being said it is only a small sequel-spansion thing but he's one of five playable characters and doesn't seem to have much consideration for honour or his mother county.

Also while it's not Asian American (just straight Japanese) you might want to check out the Yakuza series.

 

[Abomination]

Wait so people shouldn't even try to make games more welcoming for over half the population? because females are "minority's"? Even if females arn't the majority of the population, shouldn't their desires matter at least somewhat to people?

Who said they don't matter? Of course they matter... but in the world of business, commerce, shareholder reporting, projected fiscal quarters, return on investments and marketing analysis they matter less than the immediate majority status quo.

Im not saying GTA should have had a female charecter. it works fine with three males and a female would have just been shoehorned in and no'one wants that.

I'm glad we have an understanding here.

But why does it bother you when people bring it up, does it offend you that people want more women to be included in the gaming world in the future? Does the concept of women enjoying games more negatively impact your experience?

It's a discussion. I have a dissenting opinion to their premise. I am going to voice that opinion. It's an open forum. I understand what they desire and attacking the big boys for marketing to the biggest group - boys - is a foolish way of trying to get what they want. I want them to have what they want, but this is NOT the way to get it.

The alternative is really that you don't like women and are just making excuses to leave them out of things. That's fine, i suppose, just admit it rather than be like females don't matter because of stats.

Should I even respond to this accusation? The original message you sent me was

Just admit you don't like females, rather than try and explain away your "reasons" for excluding over half the population, some of whom wish to be part of the gaming world.You cant call half of the human race a minority or a demographic, its just silly. Have some empathy, not everyone is born with a penis, but they have every right to play games that you do.

And I see this is just a tame attempt at calling me sexist without actually doing so... board rules and all.

No, I'm not sexist. I love women. They're just like everyone else except I have the potential to be sexually attracted to them.

Nobody has ever said that women do not have the right to play video games. They are simply stating that if you want to demand that AAA companies cater to your niche market you better show that the niche market is large enough to run the risk of... oh, the second most expensive piece of media ever developed. It also sold like hot cakes, making 3x its investment in the first day if I remember correctly. Clearly they're doing something right.

EDIT:
Okay, so you were trying to call me seixst with yet another edit of your post.

Women don't matter. I get it. You tottaly care about companies making money therefore its tottaly ok to appeal only to the standard gamer white male, and you can't ever try to change anything or point anything out, ok. Over half the population is a minority, a demographic to be ignored. Alright. You know, its ok to hate women, you have that right. Just admit it rather than hide your distaste with weak excuses.

If you're going to ignore that 50% of the AAA gaming market isn't women, the exact figures are unknown but estimates do not place it any higher than 20%, then I guess you could somehow also reach the conclusion that I want to ignore females?

I don't even know where you're drawing these conclusions from.

 

[sweetylnumb]

Wait so people shouldn't even try to make games more welcoming for over half the population? because females are "minority's"? Even if females arn't the majority of the population, shouldn't their desires matter at least somewhat to people?

Who said they don't matter? Of course they matter... but in the world of business, commerce, shareholder reporting, projected fiscal quarters, return on investments and marketing analysis they matter less than the immediate majority status quo.

Im not saying GTA should have had a female charecter. it works fine with three males and a female would have just been shoehorned in and no'one wants that.

I'm glad we have an understanding here.

But why does it bother you when people bring it up, does it offend you that people want more women to be included in the gaming world in the future? Does the concept of women enjoying games more negatively impact your experience?

It's a discussion. I have a dissenting opinion to their premise. I am going to voice that opinion. It's an open forum. I understand what they desire and attacking the big boys for marketing to the biggest group - boys - is a foolish way of trying to get what they want. I want them to have what they want, but this is NOT the way to get it.

The alternative is really that you don't like women and are just making excuses to leave them out of things. That's fine, i suppose, just admit it rather than be like females don't matter because of stats.

Should I even respond to this accusation? The original message you sent me was

Just admit you don't like females, rather than try and explain away your "reasons" for excluding over half the population, some of whom wish to be part of the gaming world.You cant call half of the human race a minority or a demographic, its just silly. Have some empathy, not everyone is born with a penis, but they have every right to play games that you do.

And I see this is just a tame attempt at calling me sexist without actually doing so... board rules and all.

No, I'm not sexist. I love women. They're just like everyone else except I have the potential to be sexually attracted to them.

Nobody has ever said that women do not have the right to play video games. They are simply stating that if you want to demand that AAA companies cater to your niche market you better show that the niche market is large enough to run the risk of... oh, the second most expensive piece of media ever developed. It also sold like hot cakes, making 3x its investment in the first day if I remember correctly. Clearly they're doing something right.

Well fuck i kind of assumed that when i eddited my comments my other ones would somehow become invisible. Curses.

Well, i suppose expecting morality from these game companies is dumb. Just because it would be lovely for women to be better represented and all female gamers would find it enjoyable and it would probably eventually bring more into the fold, its just not the money bag that basement dwelling vampires are. Oh well. I'll still have Indie games.

 

[Zenn3k]

They should have a female character in GTA6, but make her a REALLY butch Lesbian.

That'll show those pesky feminists.

 

[Tayh]

They should have a female character in GTA6, but make her a REALLY butch Lesbian.

That'll show those pesky feminists.

Only if they make all the male characters offensive stereotypes of gays too. You don't like women? Here, have some man-on-man action.