Divinity Original Sin: An Exercise in Burying Diamonds in Shit.

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Zhukov

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Dec 29, 2009
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Finally got around to giving this game a go. I'd played it a bit on a friend's computer (while he hovered about over my shoulder making sure I didn't overwrite his precious save files) back when it released. Liked what I saw, popped it on the ol' wishlist and promptly forgot about it until recently when I found myself in need of some crap-to-fill-the-gap until XCOM2 comes out.

Now before I say anything else, let me be clear on one thing: the combat in this game is pretty cool. It's complex and challenging enough (so long as you jack up the difficulty) that you have to think about what you're doing. The whole elemental thing is pretty fun to play with, even if it's not as complex as it first appears. Plus there's a delightful element of chaos and unpredictability in the way that the various systems interact.

I made one of my characters a pyromancer-tank hybrid. Her roles was to put spikes on her shield, charge into the middle of the enemy mob, taunt aggro, set the ground around her on fire, set herself on fire, then sit there reflecting damage, igniting anyone who touched her and occasionally exploding. It was kind of glorious.

It also has amazingly solid and well implemented co-op. If you've ever wanted to play a turn-based isometric RPG stat-em-up with a friend of similar tastes then this is for you.

Oh, and it looks fairly pretty, if rather generic.

Those are the diamonds, see? Now brace yourselves, because here comes the shit.

First off, the narrative is shit.

The magical world of Every Fantasy Setting Ever is under threat by a mysterious cult who want to bring about the return of an Ancient Evil. Luckily you're The Special and, wouldn't you know it, only you can save the day by gathering the magic star stones of destiny and Jesus fucking Christ go crawl back to your DnD campaign you boring fucking hacks.

Now, that's not the end of the world. Having a garbage story just puts it on the same level as 95% of games. Hardly the first time I've sucked through a layer of shit to get to the chewy gameplay center. And at least it's a relatively lighthearted and goofy garbage story, which is infinitely easier to stomach than a garbage story that wants to be taken seriously.

No, the real problem is the sheer volume of garbage. The game opens with a couple of relatively simple tutorial fights, as one might expect. It then proceeds to lock you into a small town and make you trudge back and forth talking to boring NPCs about boring shit. You can leave the town and go find a fight, but you'll be horribly under-leveled which is fatal on harder difficulties. (And no, it doesn't let you turn the difficulty down, grind some XP in baby mode and then crank it back up.) So the only way to proceed is yawn your way through the dialogue. Which you'd need to do to advance the quests anyway. This takes hours. Fucking hours. Especially on your first run when you don't know where everything is. If I hadn't played my friend's saves beforehand, thus knowing there was a light at the end of the boring, talky tunnel, I would have given up at this point and wandered off in search of something more stimulating, like reading a dictionary.

Oh, and for some bizarre reason they went to the expense of voicing everything. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm all for voice acting in games, but this game uses an old school dialogue system, much like the old infinity engine games. So the dialogue text is always right there in front of you and it's not like subtitles where you can turn them off. And since anyone can read faster than anyone can deliver lines, you'll just end up reading ahead and skipping the voiceover. Especially since, as we've discussed, the dialogue content is shit. Plus the actual voice acting is mediocre at best

They also went to the trouble of recording delightful ambient dialogue. Which will promptly driving you fucking insane if you make the mistake of standing still around any friendly NPC. You thought Bethesda NPCs repeated themselves a lot? Let me tell you, they ain't got a thing on these fuckers who will mercilessly churn out their two lines every ten seconds or so.

Then there's the interface. Specifically the inventory interface. For no good reason all your characters have separate inventories, which is fucking unforgivable in a world where Dragon Age showed us how fucking pointless that was. I realize it makes sense for co-op, so your jerk friend can't slurp down all your potions, but there's no reason for it to exist in the single player. It just adds the tedious task of divvying up supplies to the already tedious exercise of comparing gear stats and swapping out 12 armour boots for 14 armour boots.

The end result is a bit bizarre. It's as if the developers made a fairly neat turn-based combat system, tested and refined it, then decided that actually, what players really want is to spend two thirds of their time wading through a river of shitty dialogue and shuffling items between inventories.
 

Blood Brain Barrier

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Totally agreed. One of the most overrated game I've played recently. But like you said, the combat is nice. Shame about the rest of the game.
 

Zhukov

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Gundam GP01 said:
If all you want to do is just fight and kill shit, then maybe RPGs arent your genre.
Oh, I love me some talking when the talking is good.

I mean, I fucking love Telltale games, and those are basically all talking broken up by the occasional lackluster QTE.

Hell, I wish at least some games would calm down a bit with the murdering.

What pickles my onions with Divinity is not that the talking exists, but that the murdering is fun and the talking is shit and yet I am forced to spend an obnoxious amount of time talking when I could be murdering.
 

veloper

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Combat is the game.

The devs should have gone with a more roguelite design for this game, so the player can get to the fun part quicker. Less story is better, because stories in games suck.
 

Blood Brain Barrier

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veloper said:
Combat is the game.

The devs should have gone with a more roguelite design for this game, so the player can get to the fun part quicker. Less story is better, because stories in games suck.
The game needs to give you a reason to do combat though. I don't feel the need in life to run around with a sword cutting up people unless they've kidnapped my wife, stolen a precious artifact or are the incarnation of the fire lord.
 

Zhukov

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Dec 29, 2009
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Gundam GP01 said:
The devs should have gone with a more roguelite design for this game...
Truth.

A roguelike, or even a straight up long form dungeon crawl a la the original Diablo with this combat system would have been great.
 

DoPo

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Jan 30, 2012
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OK, I'll agree with most of what you said, but my conclusion would be different. I'll go over your points quickly. Note that I've yet to actually play EE - I did play the game on release.

- combat - I agree it's quite well put together. In fact, a lot of games should be taking points - every character just has some awesome abilities - even warriors get to do really cool and flashy stuff. Mages are also just amazing - it feels like they manipulate the universe, since most of their spells would leave lingering effects of some sort, to the extent where at the end the battle field looks like a complete mess of fire, ice, electrically charged clouds and a bunch of other stuff.

- co-op - I can't actually comment on. I did play the game in co-op right when it came out, but it...erm, lacked some polish. Group conversations were actually quite frustrating as only the player who initiated the dialogue would get the conversation - even if the other player would occasionally be asked about something, they wouldn't know the context. But these issues had been fixed way back in the past, now with EE there might have been more changes and improvements, as well. I just haven't played the "proper" co-op of this game, so I can't judge.

- looks - yeah, generic but nice. It's all colourful and stuff - it's at least pleasant to look at. The visual effects are also top notch, like the aforementioned abilities.

- narrative - I found it boring but practical. It wasn't awful, its presence served to keep the plot going. Fairly cliche but functional - it didn't tend to get in the way.

- beginning town - OK, I've heard this complaint a lot, actually. I get where it's coming from and I agree it could be improved. I don't know if you played EE or not, so I don't know if it's still the case in EE or maybe it was remedied. However, I didn't actually have problem with talking to NPCs in Cyseal. *shrug* I just don't find it that boring. It also helps that I liked exploring the town. And robbing everything that wasn't completely nailed down.

- the fully voice acted thing actually sounds new. I think that might be an EE feature - from what I recall, not all the dialogue was voice acted - only some NPCs or some dialogues (most important ones) would have voice acting. I've not experienced it but it sounds just slightly irritating at worse.

- ambient dialogue can be hilarious "No one has as many friends as the man with many cheeses". Yet, yeah - it can be repetitive. My solution was to not stand around at the market or wherever.

- inventory - I didn't really have any problems with it. It didn't even occur to me that it should be improved. Again, I can see that it can but I don't necessarily think it's just that bad.

I want to also mention the music, though - it's one of my favourite soundtracks I've heard. Really enjoyable - I've got it in my playlist nowadays.

At any rate - I had a lot of fun with the game. I didn't really find the downsides to be that impactful. It was definitely one of my favourite games in 2014. I've yet to play EE, as I said, but I'm looking forward to it - I just have other things on my plate, right now.
 

meiam

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Dec 9, 2010
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I have to regretfully agree. I played the non enhanced version to maybe the half point in the game (this one has thankfully no voice acting) and I ended up dropping it, but I do plan on restarting with the enhance version (with voice turned off of course).

The story just wasn't that great whenever it took itself seriously, the main character were especially disappointing, hate when character you create turn out to be "the special", its even weirder here since there's two main character and they both have to be the special.

And there were just so many small annoying decision, my most hated one is having ice magic leave slippery surface whenever you use it. After every battle I had to babysit my character around every surface of ice I had left because otherwise they'd just walk over it and fall to the ground and it take a few second for them to get back up, it would take me more time looting enemy and moving on to the next fight than the fight themselves.

The crafting system was pretty pointless and had terrible UI, it was made even worse with every character having a separate inventory, it would quickly become a nightmare to find stuff in all the split inventory with half a million reagent.

The balance was also all over the place, you'd easily go from a super easy cake walk of a fight to an insanely hard one that'd require multiple restart.
 

Lufia Erim

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I'm currently playing this on consoles and quite frankly am enjoying it.

You are not " THE SPECIAL", you are a source hunter. Your JOB is to hunter Sourcerers. You are literally doing your job the entire game. There are other people from your order inside the game doing the same thing as you. Like Madora ( one of the first people you can recruit). So you aren't special in any way.

The interface isn't that bad. I usually sell anything that isn't at least green anyways. Plus you don't need to swap out anything to equip them, if you are playing solo just going to the equipment screen you can put on anything anyone is holding, regardless of who currently has the item and who you are equipping it on.

Separate inventories make a lot of sense because not everyone has the same skills or talents. Why would i put grenades on my warrior when 50% of the time they can't throw straight and end up throwing a fire grenade into a wall next to them blowing up the entire party? Why would i put scrolls on my archer, when my mage has more range to cast them with? Plus the sheer amount of items there are in the game.

My warrior has all my useless stuff to sell because he can carry more. My mage carries all my important stuff. My rogue carries all my keys and lockpicks .Not to mention magic pockets are a godsend when you need to do anything, like digging or mining.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Zhukov said:
The end result is a bit bizarre. It's as if the developers made a fairly neat turn-based combat system, tested and refined it, then decided that actually, what players really want is to spend two thirds of their time wading through a river of shitty dialogue and shuffling items between inventories.
Divinity is a turn based tactical combat game with a hilariously stupid and bad RPG wrapped around it like a crusty condom. From reading your post, it sounds like you're mired in the interminable opening town, which is heavy on the RPG, light on the TBS. Once you get past that point, the "storytelling" drops off significantly, and combat becomes much more frequent. Unfortunately, the difficulty really falls off after the first major area as you start to power up, so you lose that knife's edge toughness on every fight. By the end you're really just in an extended victory lap.

It's far from a perfect game, it's just the ONLY retro-callback-RPG game of the kickstarter generation that actually did something that didn't feel ridiculously antiquated, and that's the combat. Combat was very good. I'd just like to see more of it, along with a larger party and a branching narrative to enhance replay, because unlike most RPGs I'd actually WANT to replay Divinity for the combat. But only the combat.
 

Sniper Team 4

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Lufia Erim said:
I'm currently playing this on consoles and quite frankly am enjoying it.

You are not " THE SPECIAL", you are a source hunter. Your JOB is to hunter Sourcerers. You are literally doing your job the entire game. There are other people from your order inside the game doing the same thing as you. Like Madora ( one of the first people you can recruit). So you aren't special in any way.
Guessing you're not very far yet, are you? You do start out as just a Hunter, but...things change.


Anyway, the first time I played through the game (just beat it yesterday), the opening town was a slog. So much running around, so much back tracking, so many quests I couldn't finish yet (which drives me nuts, personally), and so much, "Where am I supposed to go, what am I supposed to do?" in that first town that it was crazy. I had to look at a walkthrough, because it seemed like there were three different stories going on around the murder, and I didn't want to screw anything up by only following one. It turned out they're all linked together, but then I realized that it had been quite a while since I'd killed anything, much less fought anything.

So I ventured outside, into the rain, and found myself barely surviving by the skin of my teeth. So yeah, the beginning of the game is rough to say the least. Once I got the hang of it--and figured out that the water class can use healing magic--it got easier, and once I could summon allies, it got much easier.
But I can totally understand how the beginning of the game, combined with generic fantasy story 101, can really turn people off from it.

And then there's the part at the end that's different (whether it's just for console versions or because it's Enhanced, I don't know) where the puzzle is completely different than 99% of the guides out there so I was banging my head against a wall for a few hours. And don't even get me started on the puzzle once you're INSIDE the Source Temple. Ugh.
 

Erttheking

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Hm, I'll keep that in mind. I haven't actually gotten around to playing it even though I have it. I have to say, I'm a little tired of being "The Special". It's one thing if it's like Skyrim and being "The Special" means you get to eat dragon souls, but most of the time it's something kidna underwhelming, like the Dragon Age's Grey Warden. You can sense Darkspawn and die. Whoo-hoo. Can't we just be an ordinary soldier or a blacksmith or something?

Question though. Was this the base edition or the Enhanced edition? Because the enhanced edition was supposed to add a ton of stuff.
 

BloatedGuppy

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erttheking said:
Hm, I'll keep that in mind. I haven't actually gotten around to playing it even though I have it. I have to say, I'm a little tired of being "The Special". It's one thing if it's like Skyrim and being "The Special" means you get to eat dragon souls, but most of the time it's something kidna underwhelming, like the Dragon Age's Grey Warden. You can sense Darkspawn and die. Whoo-hoo. Can't we just be an ordinary soldier or a blacksmith or something?

Question though. Was this the base edition or the Enhanced edition? Because the enhanced edition was supposed to add a ton of stuff.
Enhanced edition, he referenced the full voice acting.

As to "The Special"...they actually tried making a non-special protagonist for DA2 and everyone whined. Now, they whined for a lot of reasons, but one of them was definitively that they were no longer The Special. Apparently an overwhelming segment of the game playing public still demands power fantasies.
 

Erttheking

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BloatedGuppy said:
erttheking said:
Hm, I'll keep that in mind. I haven't actually gotten around to playing it even though I have it. I have to say, I'm a little tired of being "The Special". It's one thing if it's like Skyrim and being "The Special" means you get to eat dragon souls, but most of the time it's something kidna underwhelming, like the Dragon Age's Grey Warden. You can sense Darkspawn and die. Whoo-hoo. Can't we just be an ordinary soldier or a blacksmith or something?

Question though. Was this the base edition or the Enhanced edition? Because the enhanced edition was supposed to add a ton of stuff.
Enhanced edition, he referenced the full voice acting.

As to "The Special"...they actually tried making a non-special protagonist for DA2 and everyone whined. Now, they whined for a lot of reasons, but one of them was definitively that they were no longer The Special. Apparently an overwhelming segment of the game playing public still demands power fantasies.
We can still have power fantasies without the special. I think half of the criticism was that Hawke doesn't really do much in terms of plot, hell the first third of the game is just getting ready to go on a treasure hunt.

The other half was that everyone in DA2 was a massive dickweed. Ms "Demons are really nice people" Brother dick 24/7, Mr. "I accidentally ALL THE CHANTRY", the choir boy, Sir "Can we kill all the mages now?. And because of all of that, it doesn't feel like you end up making much of a difference. Also there's Varric, who just won't FUCKING PLOW ME!
 

BloatedGuppy

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erttheking said:
We can still have power fantasies without the special. I think half of the criticism was that Hawke doesn't really do much in terms of plot, hell the first third of the game is just getting ready to go on a treasure hunt.

The other half was that everyone in DA2 was a massive dickweed. Ms "Demons are really nice people" Brother dick 24/7, Mr. "I accidentally ALL THE CHANTRY", the choir boy, Sir "Can we kill all the mages now?. And because of all of that, it doesn't feel like you end up making much of a difference. Also there's Varric, who just won't FUCKING PLOW ME!
We could talk about DA2's failings all day, there were certainly enough of them. I distinctly remember, though, that one of them was "I miss being the hero". I think the reason we see so many fucking Chosen One narratives is that audiences keep demanding them.

I hear you on Varric. I play a female PC in these games, and I was annoyed at his zero-romance status. DA:I cured me of that, where he was turned into a zero-personality fob. Possibly to suit the zero-personality backdrop he was populating. Horrible fuckin' game...
 

Pirate Of PC Master race

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I didn't play enhanced edition some months ago, so no narrated voice for me(there are still DAMN REPETITIVE background dialogues though. Almost forgot about this).

While combat is excellent, story and dialogues are... well they are pretty bad.

Not to mention instant kill traps(I pity whoever wasting their talent on killing few people rather than, say, embodiment of all the darkness and etc.).

And unleashing tenebrium poisoning to unsuspecting players.

Good times.
 

DoPo

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Lufia Erim said:
You are not " THE SPECIAL", you are a source hunter. Your JOB is to hunter Sourcerers. You are literally doing your job the entire game. There are other people from your order inside the game doing the same thing as you. Like Madora ( one of the first people you can recruit). So you aren't special in any way.
Except for the fact that you are special and that's revealed early on. And by "early on", I mean before you exit Cyseal. Then for the entire game the whole plot gradually shifts from "let's follow up on the murder" to "Oh, you should save the world, because you're literally the only two people who can do it."

That should be as spoiler free as possible way to explain how what you said is wrong.
 

Lufia Erim

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DoPo said:
Lufia Erim said:
You are not " THE SPECIAL", you are a source hunter. Your JOB is to hunter Sourcerers. You are literally doing your job the entire game. There are other people from your order inside the game doing the same thing as you. Like Madora ( one of the first people you can recruit). So you aren't special in any way.
Except for the fact that you are special and that's revealed early on. And by "early on", I mean before you exit Cyseal. Then for the entire game the whole plot gradually shifts from "let's follow up on the murder" to "Oh, you should save the world, because you're literally the only two people who can do it."

That should be as spoiler free as possible way to explain how what you said is wrong.
Ha. I completly forgot about that. Alright, i admit i was wrong. Scrath my previous post.

In my defense. I skips through that entire end of time stuff and never went back. I havent finished the game yet im about level 14.